TTA period of operation

[scottystitch]

Can anyone shed light on exactly when TTAs came into traffic? Farish classify these as being in the period 66-onwards, but I'm sure I've seen a photograph of block workings of TTAs behind Type 4 traction dated 1964 and carrying ESSO branding. I may of course be wrong.

 

Struggling to find anything online with regard to when they entered service.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

I'm to be modelling the period 1962-1964 inclusive, with the layout based in Scotland.

[hmrspaul]

Farish have it about right. What you are seeing are what years later would be called TTV at 45 tons, although they may have been 35 or 40t GLW. In later years (1980s) many of the TTV were converted to TTA. The period 1958 - 66 is very fluid (sic) for the development of tank wagons with the Airfix (Dapol now) 22ton (35ton GLW) type only introduced in 1958, but the Civil engineers permitted an increase to 20ton per axle and then 22.5ton before finally accepting 25ton (which was mostly used for the bogie tanks built in large numbers from 66. Similarly they wanted all new wagons to be vacuum braked and then changed their minds and required air braking. The suspensions also altered considerably at the same time.

 

Esso in particular changed their fleet to power brake quite early so had a lot of vacuum braked wagons http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e4bebcd30 . In contrast SMBP, which had a vast fleet of elderly tank wagons were far slower to decide they would stay with rail for distribution, so had 45ton TTV but many more TTA and then their vast bogie fleet.

 

Plenty of examples http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fueltankwagons

 

Paul

[scottystitch]

Farish have it about right. What you are seeing are what years later would be called TTV at 45 tons, although they may have been 35 or 40t GLW. In later years (1980s) many of the TTV were converted to TTA. The period 1958 - 66 is very fluid (sic) for the development of tank wagons with the Airfix (Dapol now) 22ton (35ton GLW) type only introduced in 1958, but the Civil engineers permitted an increase to 20ton per axle and then 22.5ton before finally accepting 25ton (which was mostly used for the bogie tanks built in large numbers from 66. Similarly they wanted all new wagons to be vacuum braked and then changed their minds and required air braking. The suspensions also altered considerably at the same time.

 

Esso in particular changed their fleet to power brake quite early so had a lot of vacuum braked wagons http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e4bebcd30 . In contrast SMBP, which had a vast fleet of elderly tank wagons were far slower to decide they would stay with rail for distribution, so had 45ton TTV but many more TTA and then their vast bogie fleet.

 

Plenty of examples http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fueltankwagons

 

Paul

Thanks Paul

 

I've now laid my hands on the book I was thinking of that had photographs. There's a photo of a train dated 1963 with what look like TTV/TTA, grey bodies, red sole bars and ESSO branding at one end. They look pretty new and are hauled by a class 33. There is another dated 1964 with the tankers looking a bit more weathered, and again hauled by a 33. Location is given as to/from Esso's Southampton terminal.

 

So conceivably, if I've identified them correctly, they could make an appearance on my layout, albeit a bit far from home...........

[Glorious NSE]

Esso's TTVs (45t) were built 1964 (from two different builders) - and as Paul says, they weren't TTVs that long before being converted to TTAs, in which guise they have led a very long and productive life!

 

Could what you're seeing in the earlier images be TSVs (35t) like these ones - which were built slightly earlier, but have a vaguely similar look to the later, larger, TTV?

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank

 

Bigger question for you, did Esso run block trains all the way to Scotland from Fawley at this time? Seems a bit of a stretch to me, but 1960s oil distribution isn't something I know loads about...?

[Fat Controller]

Esso's TTVs (45t) were built 1964 (from two different builders) - and as Paul says, they weren't TTVs that long before being converted to TTAs, in which guise they have led a very long and productive life!

 

Could what you're seeing in the earlier images be TSVs (35t) like these ones - which were built slightly earlier, but have a vaguely similar look to the later, larger, TTV?

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank

 

Bigger question for you, did Esso run block trains all the way to Scotland from Fawley at this time? Seems a bit of a stretch to me, but 1960s oil distribution isn't something I know loads about...?

I think both Scotland and Northern England were/are covered by coastal shipping, in the former case, at least, using rail for onward shipment. Fawley supplied as far as Bromford Bridge and Northampton, I believe; when petrol and fuel oil deliveries to Bromford Bridge, they started using it as a loading point for rail as far as Shrewsbury, and probably elsewhere.

[scottystitch]

Glorious NSE, on 23 Apr 2014 - 13:25, said:

Esso's TTVs (45t) were built 1964 (from two different builders) - and as Paul says, they weren't TTVs that long before being converted to TTAs, in which guise they have led a very long and productive life!

 

Could what you're seeing in the earlier images be TSVs (35t) like these ones - which were built slightly earlier, but have a vaguely similar look to the later, larger, TTV?

http://paulbartlett....ssomonobloctank

 

Bigger question for you, did Esso run block trains all the way to Scotland from Fawley at this time? Seems a bit of a stretch to me, but 1960s oil distribution isn't something I know loads about...?

I think both Scotland and Northern England were/are covered by coastal shipping, in the former case, at least, using rail for onward shipment. Fawley supplied as far as Bromford Bridge and Northampton, I believe; when petrol and fuel oil deliveries to Bromford Bridge, they started using it as a loading point for rail as far as Shrewsbury, and probably elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks both.

 

The short answer is no, I don't think these block trains worked as far north as Perth and onwards, but my rational was aviation fuel being transported to Perth's new marshalling yard for onward distribution by rail to RAF Lossiemouth, Kinloss and Leuchars.

 

You are no doubt correct re the misidentification of the wagons in the photograph, I struggle to tell the difference between a lot of rolling stock at the best of times.

 

Scotty

[hmrspaul]

There were, of course, 3 builders of the TTVs for Esso. They weren't converted until the early 1980s.

 

I don't  understand why there is concern that the TSVs only worked from Fawley. There is no reason why they wouldn't have worked from other Esso distribution centres such as Bowling. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essobowling - admittedly there weren't any present when we visited. However the collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank has several in Scotland, admittedly late in their lives but sufficient to suggest they were used in Scotland.

 

Paul

[scottystitch]

There were, of course, 3 builders of the TTVs for Esso. They weren't converted until the early 1980s.

 

I don't  understand why there is concern that the TSVs only worked from Fawley. There is no reason why they wouldn't have worked from other Esso distribution centres such as Bowling. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essobowling - admittedly there weren't any present when we visited. However the collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essomonobloctank has several in Scotland, admittedly late in their lives but sufficient to suggest they were used in Scotland.

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul

 

My post wasn't really concerned with whether they were in Scotland, but when they would conceivably have begun to be seen there.

 

Scotty

[hmrspaul]

Thanks Paul

 

My post wasn't really concerned with whether they were in Scotland, but when they would conceivably have begun to be seen there.

 

Scotty

All my photos have the building year on them.

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

All my photos have the building year on them.

 

Paul

Am I correct in thinking that quite a few were built in Scotland, notably by Norbrit-Pickering at Wishaw?

[scottystitch]

As already noted, my recognition is not up to scratch, so can anyone say what these are?

 

http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm

 

this is possibly the same working,

 

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Oxford_railway_station_geograph-2401276-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

 

both dated 1964

[scottystitch]

And this one at York apparantly, dated 1962

 

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3667/12266730184_c3cb94835e_z.jpg

[eastwestdivide]

And this one at York apparantly, dated 1962

 

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3667/12266730184_c3cb94835e_z.jpg

Those look like cement wagons to me, especially with the 33s, on Cliffe-Uddingston I think.

[scottystitch]

All my photos have the building year on them.

 

Paul

Thanks

 

I had a proper look, you've plenty of 1964 examples so they can and will make an appearance on my layout........

 

Lovely website by the way.

[scottystitch]

These look completely different, dated 1963 at Bromsgrove.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4202435573/in/photolist-7pmzFK-7pAKZk-7m5AgK-5Vmh7G-7dwhQi-7YtQxK-7nfRJW-7oRhQg-7p5vuK-hmhTif-ndGwXK-7pqnHG-7dAbKm-7pqRVE-jnvk6c-9QgJnx-9K8X8R-9Jqm2s-9JaDcE-7mcD3g-dYW2Zn-jdbWVu-iHzwto-hn6rjr-hTcHpb-i6rLxL-cMT485-cguNas-bYmHjE-ceaKk5-ceNPzS-ceN89d-gPtG6t-hn4Sgg-i6sdPq-7kfnUL-7qLBoH-h2xAgL-8rBCEV-8NhdB7-5xWqnb-bVRWZF-cdXy25-cyYjmY-eTsEpv-ed4HR1-egGBCB-7dwhFV-bjHEda-bXNQm9/

[Fat Controller]

These look completely different, dated 1963 at Bromsgrove.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4202435573/in/photolist-7pmzFK-7pAKZk-7m5AgK-5Vmh7G-7dwhQi-7YtQxK-7nfRJW-7oRhQg-7p5vuK-hmhTif-ndGwXK-7pqnHG-7dAbKm-7pqRVE-jnvk6c-9QgJnx-9K8X8R-9Jqm2s-9JaDcE-7mcD3g-dYW2Zn-jdbWVu-iHzwto-hn6rjr-hTcHpb-i6rLxL-cMT485-cguNas-bYmHjE-ceaKk5-ceNPzS-ceN89d-gPtG6t-hn4Sgg-i6sdPq-7kfnUL-7qLBoH-h2xAgL-8rBCEV-8NhdB7-5xWqnb-bVRWZF-cdXy25-cyYjmY-eTsEpv-ed4HR1-egGBCB-7dwhFV-bjHEda-bXNQm9/

Those are the preceding type, which came out in the late 1950s; 35t GLW against 45t. They are the sort that were used on the Fawley- Bromford Bridge trains. 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essobtankwagonvb shows a selection.

They're available as a kit from Dapol;  originally in the Airfix range. and costing two bob when first released.

[hmrspaul]

Those look like cement wagons to me, especially with the 33s, on Cliffe-Uddingston I think.

Yes, going off topic, they are the Cemflos http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cemflo . A famous train as it took paired Birmingham type 3s all the way to York at a time when they were usually restricted to the SR (and cross London freights and the WR)

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

Those are the preceding type, which came out in the late 1950s; 35t GLW against 45t. They are the sort that were used on the Fawley- Bromford Bridge trains. 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essobtankwagonvb shows a selection.

They're available as a kit from Dapol;  originally in the Airfix range. and costing two bob when first released.

 

I think they are more likely to have been the similar Class A tanks http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essoatankwagonvb  One remained at Bowling in internal use - in the 1980s. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/essoatankwagonvb/e3f2db360 - although the later version (compared to the Airfix kit) with auxilliary J hanger suspension.

 

Paul