GWR Wagon identification please

[swampy]

In this ebay listing  ...

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=351056500823

 

there is a bogie plate wagon identical (as far as I can see ) to the NER/LNER Boplate B in Tatlow's (original) LNER Wagons book p82, also the subject of a Colin Ashby kit. 32 came to the NER as war surplus, presumably around 1918-22, and a further 216 were bought by the LNER in 1925.

 

I can't find any reference to these being bought by the GWR in the usual GW wagon bible (although there is a lot to wade through, so I may have missed it), so my questions are

1. Did the GWR actually own any of these?
2. If so, what diagram were they allocated to, if any..?
3. ..and how long did they last ( given that according to the kit instructions, the NER wagons probably lasted until the 60s). Assembling one of my kits as GWR would make an interesting variation.
4. Assuming a post WW1 date, why is there no large G W livery?. The livery looks pre-1904 with the small GWR on the solebar. I though it might be because of the drop-sides, but ballast wagons have a large "G W".

 

Puzzled Pete...

 

(PS are there any photos out there of the NER/LNER wagons)

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

In answer to Q1, the GWR on the solebar is a bit of a clue.

 

Is it a fish wagon perhaps?

 

What gauge is it?

[Adrian Wintle]

I would guess that it was a war surplus wagon, or possibly something operated by the GWR for the war department. It doesn't appear to have DC brakes, so I doubt if it was something comissioned by the GWR. It has the look of a builders' photo, so it is possible that the livery may not actually be the one used in service.

 

Adrian

[jwealleans]

Doesn't the seller's description suggest 'on hire' or 'on loan' from Gloucester C & W?  It may have been a short term thing to cover war shortages or for a specific but short term traffic?

 

Is there anything other than his description which suggests that it is taken on, by, or for the GW?

[buffalo]

As you say, the description says that the photo was taken at Gloucester RC&W, but there's no sign of anything to indicate that it was on loan or hire to the GWR. If it was, I'd expect to see a Gloucester hire plate on the side or solebar. The wartime association is a red herring. That much is clear from the livery. Though it is not impossible for lettering to be on the solebar with some heavy vehicles at that date, it is clearly pre-1904 because it says G.W.R without a final full stop. Anything after 1904 only carried only the two letters GW. It may even be pre 1893/4 as the G.W.R is at the left end. It was more usually at the right end after that date. It doesn't have DC brakes simply because they hadn't yet been invented.

 

From the enlarged photo, it is clearly standard gauge. It has full length drop sides which were usually only found on the GWR on ballast wagons and some rail wagons or those built for the signal department. These, however, were mostly four wheelers and the only PW ballast examples on bogies have steel bodies and are much later.

 

It is not a fish truck. These were invariably vacuum fitted and broad, narrow and converted bogie examples all ran on Dean bogies. They also had three narrow side doors that were wide enough for (un)loading fish boxes. Which leads to the question of why it has diamond frame bogies. Unless it's an experiment, I doubt the GWR would have built a wagon with these, but they might have been used if the wagon was built at Gloucester.

 

The GWR did, however, acquire some wagons at the grouping with such bogies. These came from the Taff Vale and were subsequently classified as MACAW G. See plates 247 and 248 in Atkins et al. where the pattern of the bogies is pretty much identical to those in the photo.

 

So now we get to the speculation. Perhaps the Taff Vale wagons were built by GRC&W (they certainly built other wagons for the TV), and maybe the GWR ordered some built on a similar underframe and bogies at around the same time

 

Nick

[Darwinian]

Just an non-expert observation but the construction of the trussing and bogies remind me strongly of the Rectank wagons built for the war Dept. and subsequently acquired by the GWR. However I don't recall ever seeing a picture of one of those with split spoked wheels as this appears to have. Were these perchance a lighter version intended for transorting field guns / horse drawn carriages or motor trucks for example later fitted with sides (as rectanks were with bolsters).

 

Adrian

[buffalo]

I was intrigued by this one and, as no one else appeared to be interested, I put in a last minute bid and now have the photo.

 

First, to correct my previous suggestion that there was nothing to indicate it was hired, I had missed the obvious leading zero of the wagon number, however I've no idea what the leading 'T' indicates. I don't recall seeing anything published on the wagons hired by the GWR, just a couple of references to the leading zero on the number. If anyone knows more, I'd be very interested to know. Again correcting my earlier post there is a Gloucester RC&W plate on the solebar just to the right of the centre hinge of the centre door.

 

Further solebar details now visible include:

• a final full stop in the GWR initials, presumably the Gloucester painters were not aware of the GWR convention here.
• To the right of the initials and number, the italic script reads "Return empty to Stourbridge Jun^c".
• Towards the right hand end, the letters "REV" appear above the inner axlebox.
• The weight details are "LOAD 30^T 480" and TARE 13^T 460", both Roman, not Italic. What are the 480 and 460?
• To the right of the weights is a chalked date, not very clear but probably 2.11.3.

 

I note that in their discussion of the one-off O1 TOURN bogie open of 1889, Atkins et al mention that "Five further bogie open goods wagons were ordered under L402 in 1903 (42903-7) but were cancelled. Could they have been cancelled because an alternative was available from Gloucester?

 

Nick

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if the photo was taken after the vehicle had returned from wartime service in France? 'REV', followed by a painted date, and often a two letter code (signifying the workshop involved), is used to this day on stock there to indicate 'REVision' or overhaul date. The two digit, 'T' then three digits, Load and Tare figures could be metric ones; these days the three digits for the kilogrammes are about half the height for those of the 'Tonnes'.

[cctransuk]

I wonder if the photo was taken after the vehicle had returned from wartime service in France? 'REV', followed by a painted date, and often a two letter code (signifying the workshop involved), is used to this day on stock there to indicate 'REVision' or overhaul date. The two digit, 'T' then three digits, Load and Tare figures could be metric ones; these days the three digits for the kilogrammes are about half the height for those of the 'Tonnes'.

 

This would seem by far the most likely scenario - perhaps some of the ones acquired by the NER / LNER were initially loaned / hired to the GWR?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[buffalo]

Brian's suggestion about metric weights is very interesting. 30T480 is 30 long tons within one kg, and the tare of 13T460 is just a fraction under 13T 5cwt. There is, however, no sign of any other lettering, painted or chalked, next to the "REV".

 

...there is a bogie plate wagon identical (as far as I can see ) to the NER/LNER Boplate B in Tatlow's (original) LNER Wagons book p82, also the subject of a Colin Ashby kit. 32 came to the NER as war surplus, presumably around 1918-22, and a further 216 were bought by the LNER in 1925...

 

Now I know next to nothing about the ROD or the NER and the best photo of a BOPLATE B I've found so far is of this model. It certainly looks very similar, if not identical to the one in the photo. The only obvious difference is the tare weight of 13.16, 11cwt higher than that converted from the metric figure above. Does Tatlow give a typical tare weight?

 

From what little else I've been able to find online, the 32 that went to the NER had been built for the ROD. Who built them? Was GRC&W involved and did they take some into their hire fleet after the war? Were the 216 bought in 1925 also ex-ROD stock?

 

Could it have been hired to the GWR during the war to carry out work for the ROD? If so,why the metric weights? If it was hired after returning from France, why add the GWR and return details without changing the weights to imperial. The "G.W.R." and "T 06009" appear to be on a separate, perhaps wooden, plate screwed to the solebar. The return details, as with everything else, are painted directly on the solebar.

 

Incidentally, the original written description on the back of the ebay photo says "on hire from" GRC&W, not "on line from" as in the ebay description.

 

Nick

[richbrummitt]

I've had a model of one of these built but unpainted for several years now. Perhaps I can borrow the livery from this example rather than going for the NE. It might almost be appropriate for 1921 if it is post war?!