2251 Tender

[Twright]

Hi all

 

As I have (in my opinion at least) made a good start with my 16xx, I've decided to start doing some researching into some of my future projects. One of these is the GWR 2251 ( I know Bachmann make one as I own one and I can see that it has some obvious faults with it - I guess this is because it was the Mainline one) and as you can guess from the thread name, I was wondering - what is the best tender to model with them as I don't have a brilliant knowledge of GWR tender variations.

I know this is a bit of an open question so I'll split it into some categories:

 

1 - Which did they mostly run with in GWR times?

2 - Which (if different) did they mostly run with in BR (W) times?

3 - Which tenders aren't available to buy that they did run with that you might like (so it can be done separately)?

 

And for either of these are there any details that are not immediately noticeable that I should include?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[28XX]

'Standard issue' is the 3,500 gallon Collet tender as frequently seen with the Hall, Castle etc. Alternative is are the 3,000 gallon usually found with the Saints, Stars, 2800, mogul and latterly the Manor.  Bachman also issue the 2251 paired with the ROD tender which I believe is prototypical.  As has been said many times before on here, the GWR had more engines than tenders, and they routinely came out from overhaul with different tenders than they went in with.  Early standardization made this a viable proposition.

[Twright]

'Standard issue' is the 3,500 gallon Collet tender as frequently seen with the Hall, Castle etc. Alternative is are the 3,000 gallon usually found with the Saints, Stars, 2800, mogul and latterly the Manor.  Bachman also issue the 2251 paired with the ROD tender which I believe is prototypical.  As has been said many times before on here, the GWR had more engines than tenders, and they routinely came out from overhaul with different tenders than they went in with.  Early standardization made this a viable proposition.

 

Thanks for that information, are the Collett tenders with long or short side fenders?

[Quarryscapes]

What did they run with mostly is anybody's guess, they swapped and changed a LOT, trust me I've been looking at this very subject in depth and there is no rule. They would run with Collett 3000g (the standard offering on the mainline model), Churchward 3500g (Bachmann Manor tender), ROD tender from withdrawn Aberdares (I think it was) or even 3000g Dean tenders. I think I've even found a photo of one with a 2500g tender but it's hard to confirm since they looks exactly like 3000g tenders but are shorter, making it very hard to tell apart in anything but side on shots. The most common would be between the Collett 3000 and the 3500 though. 

 

They swapped about a hell of a lot too. 3208 is a good example. (Google image search) In 1948 it had a Dean 3000g, in 1954 a 3500g, by 1962 it had a Collett 3000g and it was withdrawn in 65 with a Dean 3000g.

 

The mainline top isn't too bad but the chassis is dire. I have just ordered a  Hornby grange chassis to see what can be done about mating the two. The Manor tender is pretty good, again the chassis is a little clunky but a good representation (though I haven't actually seen that frame shape behind a 2251 yet, but you can bet it has happened - I'll be using another Grange chassis to attempt a swap). I haven't had the ROD tender yet so can't comment, and the only Dean 3000g tender RTR is behind the Mainline/Dapol/Hornby Dean goods. The top is OK though models the D shape filler which wasn't very common it seems, and the chassis is full of motor and gears. I've made a 3D printed top that I intend to fit on a Comet chassis, and a 2500g version I plan on adjusting a comet chassis to fit too. 

[DCB]

Almost my specialised subject this,,,  I am sure 28XX has his Tenders mixed up and they didn't run with Collet 3500 galloin Tenders, If they did I have never seen a photo and I have been looking for something like twenty years

The 2251s ran mainly with the Churchward 3500 gallon Tender, this is the mainline Bachmann Mogul Tender with a long fender and wide tank, many ran with ex ROD GCR type 4000 gallon tenders, some ran with Dean era 3000 gallon, as per Dapol City of Truro kit,  The later ones had Collet 3000 gallon Tenders the ones with the fender right round the back of the tender as per the Mainline 32XX model,

There was a drawing in Railway Modeller some years ago of a 2251 with a 3500 gallon Collet Tender and the Peco N gauge model has this Tender.  The Collet 3500 was built for Halls in round 1928, I think there were 40 of them and they ran with Granges and Saints in later years when displaced on Halls by 4000 gallon types, .They are Intermediate in height between the 2251 3000 gallon tender and the King type 4000 gallon Tender all of which have the fender around the rear.  This is the Tender Hornby model behind one of their Granges   There is also a similar 3500 gallon "Intermediate"type of  tender with the same height sides but witoiut the fender around the back which ran with at least one Manor some 43XX etc   The 3000 and 3500 gallon are often mixed up, but the 3000 matches the height of the cab cut away on the 2251.  The Tender is however wider than the cab by a few inches,  At least one Collet 3000 gallon Tender runs with a Manor in preservation on the WSR and looks odd as it is too low.. Another has bee rebuilt to resemble a 3500 gallon Collet but holds 4000 gallons and less coal

Many 2251 were built with 4000 gallon Collet Tenders which were swapped for the Churchward 3500 tenders off Halls and Castles before the locos entered service

The Mainline 2251 sits too low as it uses Pannier size 18.25mm driving wheels instead of the 20.66mm 5'2".wheels of the prototype.  The buffer beams are too short to compensate and the tender axles don't line up with the axleboxes to lower the running plate.  Before Hornby made their Collet 3500 gallon Tender I made one by filing the running plate edge off the Mainine body and fitted it to a Hornby Hall Tender chassis.  

I ran a Dapol Truro tender body on a much modified Hornby tender chassis behind my old 2251 some years ago but she no longer passes muster and lives in the perpetual darkness of my spare loco drawer.

As far as I can tell the 2251 were not allocated west of Exeter in BR days, Taunton had several Exeter had one often pictured at Dawlish, but apart from the "Exmoor Ranger" railtour In have never seen a picture of one west of Newton Abbott.

Many ran on the Cambrian, they replaced Bulldogs on the DNS, many finished their days on the Somerset and Dorset both on the main line and the branch where they replaced Midland 3F 0-6-0s.

If anyone has a picture of a 2251 with a Collet 3500 gallon Tender I would love to see it

[Karhedron]

 

The mainline top isn't too bad but the chassis is dire. I have just ordered a  Hornby grange chassis to see what can be done about mating the two. The Manor tender is pretty good,

The Grange and Manor both had 5'8" driving wheels whereas the 2251 had 5'2" driving wheels so neither of the larger chassis would fit. I have not checked the wheelbase.

 

The 2251 had the same wheelsize and base as the contemporary 5400 class Pannier tanks. Not sure what is available for them in 4mm but you would be much better off than trying to fit a Grange or Manor chassis under there.

[Karhedron]

As far as I can tell the 2251 were not allocated west of Exeter in BR days, Taunton had several Exeter had one often pictured at Dawlish, but apart from the "Exmoor Ranger" railtour In have never seen a picture of one west of Newton Abbott.

I would guess that the mainline to the west was not really suited to their use with steep gradients and fairly substantial trains. While Devon and Cornwall had no shortage of lighter lines, these were normally shorter branchlines where tank engines reigned supreme.

 

The 2251s were best suited to lighter cross-country work which is where they ended up gravitating to. I belive that Old Oak Common usually had a couple on their roster as well for cross-London workings.

[buffalo]

I would guess that the mainline to the west was not really suited to their use with steep gradients and fairly substantial trains. While Devon and Cornwall had no shortage of lighter lines, these were normally shorter branchlines where tank engines reigned supreme...

 

Bearing in mind that they were intended as a direct replacement for the Dean Goods, it is not surprising that their distributions were quite similar. After about 1920, Dean Goods were rarely seen west of Exeter. In 1934, there were none of either class at Exeter, though there were several of each at Taunton.  By 1954 there was a single 2251 at Exeter. The main difference in distribution of the two classes is due to the axle loading, the 2251 being some ten tons heavier than the Dean, so they were less common in central Wales.

 

Nick

 

ps. re your previous post, I think they were talking about the tenders.

[Douglas G]

 

The Taunton 2251s appeared to have been used on Minehead and Barnstaple trains, but photographic evidence shows they were much more common on the Minehead line. In fact I am struggling to find a photo of one on the Barnstaple branch at the moment.  

 

 

There is an article on the 2251s in GWRJ No 24.  This shows one allocated to Barnstaple in 1930 and 1938, with two in 1941 and 1947.  At these four dates, none were allocated west of Exeter, with 2265 in 1930 and 2230 in 1947.

 

A useful article on the class with plenty of photos of course showing the tenders types coupled to specific locos with dates.

 

 

I have a picture of 2266 on a Taunton-Barnstaple train in 1953, and have seen others. The last 2251 loco left Taunton in 1961.

 

I think the 2251 locos at Taunton were preferred for the Minehead branch because the alternative 43xx moguls were too long for the turntable at Minehead meaning extension bars had to be used. I also wonder if the moguls might have had less impact than the 2251 locos on the weak bridges on the Barnstaple branch.

[Twright]

Thank you everyone for your help so far. I think what I will do if offer it with the Churchward 3500g to start with (but separately) but also design alternatives for you to choose from. 

 

With that information, I shall take some pictures of one of these tenders at the Gloswarks to start with (as I think they are all the same)

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RZvqUqgh4p0/UycQzcLJWsI/AAAAAAAAEhk/JNAr6s3WmS4/s1600/006.jpg

 

With regards to connection between loco and tender, what would be preferred?

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

On initially reading this query and seeing the responses that 3500 gal tenders were common I was outraged and I stormed off to study my books. Shamefaced I have returned to the iPad to post.

 

Before the war, apart from the handful of rod tendered examples it seems all had dean churchward 3000 gal tenders. There is a picture of 2291 in Russell as built in 1938 with this type of tender and Peacock and Harrison confirm that the 30 built before 1934 all had this type at the end of 1934. Not conclusive but reasonable.

 

Use of the 3000 gal collet tenders began with the wartime examples. There is a picture of 2211 as built with this type. However since there were ca. 60 locos after 2211 and only 50 of the tenders presumably some appeared from Swindon with a different type after 1940. Does anyone know?

 

All the photos I could find with 3500 gallon tenders were from the BR days. Does anyone know of evidence from GWR days of this? Use of 3500 gallon tenders in later days seems logical. During the 30s locos being scrapped such as the large wheeled 440s were presumably going to the dump attached to old 2500 gall tenders, donating their 3500 gallons tender to Dukes and Bulldogs which in turn freed their 3000g tenders for Dean and Collet goods. In the 40s and 50s Saints, Stars and Bulldogs and then Moguls were being scrapped with their 3500 gal tenders passing to the Collet goods.

 

In GWR then and now, there is a picture dated 1953 of a Collet with a 3000 gallon DC tender. So in BR days any of the tender types is acceptable.

 

All of the pictures of the locos with DC tenders that I have seen show the type without the cutout at the front of the flare. However fig 613 in Russell vol 2 may show a tender with cut out attached to what appears to be the last foot of a Collet goods cab. Can anyone confirm? I have the suspicion that Swindon matched the tenders with cut outs with the Deans as this was more aesthetically pleasing.

 

If the above is true then the Dean goods tender would be suitable subject to finding a phot giving the locos identity. From the clean patches on the tender I would guess that it is from the 40s. Is the City of Truro tender suitable as the other type of DC 3000 gall tender?

 

When the peco Collet was introduced one of the magazines ran a feature which stated that 7 types of tender were attached. As the above only mentions 4 what would the other 3 be?

 

Oakhill

[Horsetan]

The Grange and Manor both had 5'8" driving wheels whereas the 2251 had 5'2" driving wheels so neither of the larger chassis would fit. I have not checked the wheelbase.

Grange wheelbase is 7' x 7'9". 2251 is 7'3 x 8'3".

 

The 2251 had the same wheelsize and base as the contemporary 5400 class Pannier tanks.....

Not quite. 54/64/74xx had 7'4" x 7'4" wheelbase.

[Quarryscapes]

 

The Grange and Manor both had 5'8" driving wheels whereas the 2251 had 5'2" driving wheels so neither of the larger chassis would fit. I have not checked the wheelbase.

 

The 2251 had the same wheelsize and base as the contemporary 5400 class Pannier tanks. Not sure what is available for them in 4mm but you would be much better off than trying to fit a Grange or Manor chassis under there.

 

We're talking about tenders here, not locos, there's no way in hell a Manor or Grange loco chassis is going to fit under a 2251! 

[DCB]

Tenders, Dean 2500, Dean 3000, (Dapol City of Truro/ Hornby Lord of  the Isles)  Collett 3000 (Mainline)  Churchward 3500 (Bachmann 43XX etc)  ROD 4000.    I  make that 5 but some were buit with Collett 4000 gallon tenders swapped with Halls before entering service so that's 6 and the other must be the Collett 3500, and I am still living in hope of finding some evidence that one was ever attached to a 2251, except in Peco's dreams and the Railway Modeller drawing.

[Karhedron]

The tender on the Peco model is a bit of shame as it is otherwise a nice little model. I think they would have sold better if they had not insisted on fitting DCC and made an accurately sized tender. If they really felt DCC was necessary, they could have made the ROD tendered version. This would have had the advantage that a ROD tender drive could have been used on a variety of models, not just GWR prototypes.

[DCB]

The Peco loco is accurate to the Ian Beattie drawing in RM and on p16 of the book "Drawn and Described" by Ian Beattie published by Peco.  He uses a photo of 3217 with a 3500 gallon Collet tender captioned  "Note the 3000 gallon tender as per the drawings."  The Collett 3500 gallon Tender is indeed half way between a 3000 and a 4000 gallon and Peco nearly had a winner on their hands had they modelled the Churchward tender which would have suited 28XX 43XX Saint, Star etc

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

David

 

Can you provide a reference to a photo showing the 2500 gallon tender? My interest is pre September 1939 and a 2500 gallon tender would definitely ring the changes compared to the 3000g one and the ROD and I could cut and shut a dean goods tender that I have lying around.

 

Thanks

 

Oakhill

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

On the subject of ROD tenders. It is the widely quoted odd fact about the Collet goods that the ROD tenders weighed more than the loco. The thing that I noticed about this tender is that the axle load exceeded the yellow route coding. Although by 1934 hammerblow was well researched, engineering is conservative ( I direct you to my own work in support of this statement) and did the civil engineers demand a blue code for the Collets with ROD tenders. Since I have seen a photo of Didcots 2282 on the DNS presumably not but does anybody know?

[Miss Prism]

... and the other must be the Collett 3500, and I am still living in hope of finding some evidence that one was ever attached to a 2251, except in Peco's dreams and the Railway Modeller drawing.

 

2202, Pwllheli, 1956. Pic by Gerald Adams. Book Railways & Recollections 1956, Silver Link Publishing. (Standing alongside 2244 with a Churchward 3500g top with a Collett underframe, btw.)

[Miss Prism]

...and did the civil engineers demand a blue code for the Collets with ROD tenders. Since I have seen a photo of Didcots 2282 on the DNS presumably not but does anybody know?

 

Interesting point. The locos I think remained coloured yellow, but probably the routes the ROD tendered versions were allowed on were restricted. The DN&S was fairly well engineered, even before the WWII upgrades, so the ROD probably didn't cause it much grief.

[DCB]

According to the drawing I have the rod tender was only 1 cwt over the 16ton limit on its rear axle so I doubt even the GW would worry about that.  Surely the DNS was Blue in pre war single track days and Red after the upgrade. According to Harold Gassons books  Bulldogs were used there pre war and they are Blue  17 ton + axle load 

[Coach bogie]

   There is also a similar 3500 gallon "Intermediate"type of  tender with the same height sides but witoiut the fender around the back which ran with at least one Manor some 43XX etc  

 In 1946, 3207 was attached to one of the 10 intermediate tenders from new.

 

Some engines were attached to Churchward 3,500 gallon types pre war. I do not have the numbers to hand, but the research for Bachmann's later version with the Manor tender was produced by a friend of mine based on photo evidence.

 

There is an image of 2263 taken in 1935 and another of 2271 attached to the shorter Dean 2,500 gallon ?? (I am no expert on capacity as some had well tanks others didn't). Certainly the early 1930 batches all received elderly Dean 3,000 gallon types, many of which were built in the 1800's. 2281-2286 entered service with ROD tenders from new in 1936. 2285 managed to stay with the same ROD tender until 1955.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[DCB]

There seems to have been both 5'6" + 5'6" wheelbase 2000 gallon and 6'6" + 6'6" wheelbase 2500 gallon Dean Tenders.as well as the more common 7'6"+7'6" 3000 gallon variety  Russel has a 5'6" type drawn in Great Western Engines volume 2 with a photograph.  I have seen the various "Collett" tenderd referred to as "FB" as in flat bottom so I assume all the older tenders had well tanks, the well tank can be seen below the framing in ,any pictures of Dean 3000 gallon and Churchward 3500 gallon Tenders.  I cannot find a photo of what is definitely a Dean 2500 tender behind a 2251 as foreshortening can make a 3000 look like a 2500,  but I am sure I have seen one, probably in "Didcot Engineman," which I had from Swindon Library some time ago.

Coach Bogie, posting above, refers to 2263 of the 1930 batch and  2271 of the 1934 series being seen with 2500 gallon tenders.

Were all the 1930 batch originally lever reverse, and were they all converted to screw does anyone know?

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

David

I asked about the reverser on the yahoo GWR group and received a response from a certain M Finney that all were so fitted and all were converted in the 30s.

 

My supplementary on when they were converted and why the saints, moguls and 47xx were left with lever reverse remains unanswered.

 

 

Oakhill

[Coach bogie]

I understand only the first lot of 1930 2251 - 2270 were built with lever reversers, all replaced by screw reversers at works visits. The second lot 2271-2280 and subsequent lost all had screw reversers from new.

 

Mike Wiltshire