richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Hi all, i'm looking for someone to build some ICI hoppers for myself and a friend, its the etched brass kit link here http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/607/4f19-john-summers-hopper-wagon/ Were really struggling to find anyone that is up for this project or atleast someone who doesn't want a fortune just to solder it together Any help / links or advice on these kits would be much appreciated. Best regards Rich & Nik. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 What, exactly, constitutes a 'fortune'? Also, if it's 'just' a matter of soldering them together why don't you do it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 That link takes me to a flickr site and a class 60 pic?? Glad you sorted it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 We can't solder kits! Plastic ones yes but not complex brass ones! Link sorted now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted May 20, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 20, 2014 Will Dave at Roxey not supply them made up? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltic Man Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Nope already asked his builders are maxed out so no joy there Nik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 How many are you looking at, and how many would be needed in total? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I was thinking of just doing more resin kits but there not up to scratch and even after spending weeks adding loads of extras and making them look as good as possible, next to an etched brass ICI Hopper they just look so wrong and chunky Prices have been well over £100.00 which we both feel is un fair for this kit, yes its a complex wagon kit and not an easy square wagon but i'm sure theres skilled guys on here who would be up for the challenge Dapol were releasing them but thats probably not going to happen now for years after the recent problems so we really want some nice etched brass kits building for our layout. Soldered together and sent back is fine we can undercoat and finish them here so just a price for the build would be great chaps. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 How many are you looking at, and how many would be needed in total? Hi Ian, Any amount really? We'd be happy just to get a couple done for now but thought it may work out better for the builder doing a few at a time rather than just sending one. Are you interested in this project buddy? Would love some feedback if so Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltic Man Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 How many are you looking at, and how many would be needed in total? Hi Ian I have 11 kits and not sure how many Rich has Nik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Hi Ian I have 11 kits and not sure how many Rich has Nik Just a couple here as i didn't want to buy a load then have no one to build them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Prices have been well over £100.00 which we both feel is un fair for this kit, yes its a complex wagon kit and not an easy square wagon........... Precisely - I feel that you're being unrealistic. How many hours work for a skilled person does £100.00 represent nowadays; I certainly couldn't make a living from it, even at that price. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Precisely - I feel that you're being unrealistic. How many hours work for a skilled person does £100.00 represent nowadays; I certainly couldn't make a living from it, even at that price. Regards, John Isherwood. I feel theres no need to reply unless your offering your services or someone else's, Well my 1st etched kit was built for £45.00 to an excellent standard hes a top kit basher but he doesn't have time to do customs or anymore for me as he has plenty of his own models to do in his spare time. I had another one built in very little time a couple of days infact in between him doing other commisions too but hes fully booked up! This would be a nice little earner for someone if they wanted it? Doing a couple at a time would be perfect and a good price would be paid but we aren't daft enough to pay O Gauge prices for a 4mm wagon. If no one wants to do them thats fine i'll just wait till the guys who did my couple here have free'd up some time to do more for me & my friend, or even just build more resin chunky kits to make up the rake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Prices have been well over £100.00 which we both feel is un fair for this kit, yes its a complex wagon kit and not an easy square wagon but i'm sure theres skilled guys on here who would be up for the challenge So it is a complex kit with many parts, not your typical box. Your looking at how long to build each kit, how many hours for a skilled builder to complete one. Each kit will take a finite time - sure it gets easier after building one or two but not that much different. For someone who builds kits daily and does a half-reasonable job (nothing fancy outside the what is in the kit) there will be a pretty long waiting list and doing 11 of the same kit adds a boredom factor as no one likes repetitive tasks. Very few will see this as a "challenge" because if they see it that way then that is extra. Though each new kit is a challenge to some extent. As a rough guide for brass kit construction prices would start at 1.5 x the full cost of the kit and increase with complexity. If this http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/607/4f19-john-summers-hopper-wagon/ is the kit then that makes a unit cost from about £75 for the build alone. (that works out at an approximate 8hr kit build - which it certainly will not be) Of course if you do it yourself the time is free isn't it and you can take as long as you like. You can make it a priority over everything else in your life and you only have yourself to please. Most professional builders are "professional" they do it for some income/profit. They may enjoy doing it but that should not be a penalty. I may be wrong, because I can't find it, but I think this kit was covered on RMWeb (or somewhere) and IIRC it was not as easy as it might have been (when are they ever?) - something to do with the bogies or chunky white metal castings possibly. [Ed] I've just read your post above - £45 to build this kit - have got his name I could sub contract!! If I were you and happy with his results then I would wait for slots in his diary - you have a bargain and someone who is either very quick or can live off the wage of an unskilled worker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 So it is a complex kit with many parts, not your typical box. Your looking at how long to build each kit, how many hours for a skilled builder to complete one. Each kit will take a finite time - sure it gets easier after building one or two but not that much different. For someone who builds kits daily and does a half-reasonable job (nothing fancy outside the what is in the kit) there will be a pretty long waiting list and doing 11 of the same kit adds a boredom factor as no one likes repetitive tasks. Very few will see this as a "challenge" because if they see it that way then that is extra. Though each new kit is a challenge to some extent. As a rough guide for brass kit construction prices would start at 1.5 x the full cost of the kit and increase with complexity. If this http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/607/4f19-john-summers-hopper-wagon/ is the kit then that makes a unit cost from about £75 for the build alone. (that works out at an approximate 8hr kit build - which it certainly will not be) Of course if you do it yourself the time is free isn't it and you can take as long as you like. You can make it a priority over everything else in your life and you only have yourself to please. Most professional builders are "professional" they do it for some income/profit. They may enjoy doing it but that should not be a penalty. I may be wrong, because I can't find it, but I think this kit was covered on RMWeb (or somewhere) and IIRC it was not as easy as it might have been (when are they ever?) - something to do with the bogies or chunky white metal castings possibly. [Ed] I've just read your post above - £45 to build this kit - have got his name I could sub contract!! If I were you and happy with his results then I would wait for slots in his diary - you have a bargain and someone who is either very quick or can live off the wage of an unskilled worker. Ok then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 This would be a nice little earner for someone if they wanted it? Doing a couple at a time would be perfect and a good price would be paid but we aren't daft enough to pay O Gauge prices for a 4mm wagon. There is probably as much work in in a 4mm wagon as a 7mm one, so the price to build should be about the same. At the currect minimum wage of £6.31 your £45 bought just over 7 hours work, even £100 only buys about 15 hours, I reakon I could build one of those hoppers in about that but I'm damned if I'd do it for the minimum wage, or even twice that, and thats before the cost of consumables, depreciation of equipment, TAX, heat, light, are all added in on top. If you can find some muppet thats daft enough to build them at £45 each then book slots in his calender now. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard60098 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 There is probably as much work in in a 4mm wagon as a 7mm one, so the price to build should be about the same. At the currect minimum wage of £6.31 your £45 bought just over 7 hours work, even £100 only buys about 15 hours, I reakon I could build one of those hoppers in about that but I'm damned if I'd do it for the minimum wage, or even twice that, and thats before the cost of consumables, depreciation of equipment, TAX, heat, light, are all added in on top. If you can find some muppet thats daft enough to build them at £45 each then book slots in his calender now. Jon It was a friend who wanted to build one anyway thats why it was 45.00 i do trains day in day out but have no time to learn how to solder etched brass kits together. I do every kit but etched brass i also do rtr wagon mods aswell as loads of other bits + tons of loco re-sprays / detailing jobs, i don't even have time to do my own models anymore as is so if i see a nice model on the net i buy it, price wise yes seems a lot now offer services at a lot more than what people are used too some prices are double what i charge for my work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecgtheow Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Try MARC Models 0208 440 5918 working hours Mon-Fri. They built 10 for me at a reasonable price, though I can't remember exactly how much. ecgtheow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecgtheow Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Hi Richard60098, Just realized that you saw in 2011 on another thread on this topic an example of what was then an Uncommon Kits John Summers hopper, which as far as I am aware is now sold by Roxey. It was built by MARC Models. Ecgtheow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just had another go at locating the build topic on here. Finally found it (no wonder I drew a blank yesterday, it was done as a bl@@dy blog! Can't see what it is like as blogs simply don't display on my PC but this link should take you there. If you can read it, I expect Paul (Halfwit) will have done a pretty comprehensive job of the build. Might be useful to point any chosen builder in that direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellshock Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Also have a look at page 16 of Mozzers New Work Bench he reckons that to just build the model it is a lot more than 8 hours work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Also have a look at page 16 of Mozzers New Work Bench he reckons that to just build the model it is a lot more than 8 hours work Starting here for those who have difficulty searching. Looks like a lot of fiddly (time consuming) bits especially on 4mm wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Thanks to Kenton for finding the thread/blog. I have one of these kits in S! Not sure what I am going to do with it, you really need more than one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Pretty sure the Roxey kit originated from another source that I had some initial dealings with and the flat etches shown in the link to Halfwits blog match the test etches I have. And these are for the Summers wagon whereas the Uncommon Kits etches are based on the ICI version so their ought to be some differences between the two kits. I haven't seen John Taylor of Uncommon Kits for a while now but I think his 4mm ICI hopper is still available. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellshock Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Just to sort of round things off here are photos of 2 such wagons out of a batch of 7 I recently built. They are John Summers wagons as bought and modified by ICI for their requirements. The transfers are from Precision Labels and Decals. One is as ex works whilst the other is heavily weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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