Nile's kitbuilding bench - Midland 1377

[Guy Rixon]

Nice that they're getting built at last. That's about £70-worth of kits at current (eBay) prices!

 

If one is using the floor that comes with the kit, it rides a bit high if the headstocks are shimmed. I chose to reduce the height of the solebars. But your floor is thinner, so the shims are right.

 

Will you simulate the side knees on the inside? It's trivial to do at the stage shown in your last photo.

[Guy Rixon]

After a busy weekend of exhibitions I finally got around to finishing these off (I think).

Final details added: the opening bars above the doors.

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Brake pipes and couplings.

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The last bits added were the internal partitions, handily you get two in a kit.

 

And now for some photos of the two together.

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Can you remind us how the weathering was done, please? I ask because the weathered colour in the photos is looking much, much better than the basic primer-colour in the previous pics.

[Nile]

For the weathering I use thin washes of paint, mostly black, some dark brown, and on the GN sides some light grey along the bottom for a hint of lime wash.

 

As for the side knees, that's a new one to me, the term anyway. Can you explain?

[Spitfire2865]

For the weathering I use thin washes of paint, mostly black, some dark brown, and on the GN sides some light grey along the bottom for a hint of lime wash.

 

As for the side knees, that's a new one to me, the term anyway. Can you explain?

Side knees are this part.

They tie the frame braces to the side sheets, coming up through the floor. Directly behind the outer ironwork on Midland opens.

[Guy Rixon]

Side knees: what Spitfire said. Note also that the knees are substantial bits of forged metal, unlike the thin washer-plates on the outside. They would be 2 to 3 inches thick at the bend (where they disappear into the floor) and maybe an inch thick at the top. Below floor-level, they are bent through 90 degrees and have a leg pointing towards the centre of the wagon. These legs are bolted to the middle bearers and the floor planks are rebated on the underside to accommodate them. Nothing of the horizontal part shows above floor level.

 

I shall experiment with the weathered red. I have a wagon to do in SER red that could be finished that way.

[Compound2632]

I seem to have built up a collection of Slaters 8T 5 plank open wagons, taking up space on a shelf, so it was about time I built some.

Simple enough to build, but the kit has a design flaw as identified by Compound here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113035-more-pre-grouping-wagons-in-4mm-north-western-round-up/

This is one I built some time ago, showing the problem (buffer beam to sole bar alignment).

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As noted, the 3 plank kit doesn't have this error, so I compared the kits to find the problem. The chassis are the same, so it's not there.

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The end mouldings show a difference in the buffer beam height of 0.5mm. This accounts for the error.

03.JPG

 

The solution is to add a strip of 20thou (0.5mm) plastic onto the buffer beam. This will set the body at the correct height (relative to the chassis).

04.JPG

 

I added a floor to the wagon from embossed Plastikard. The kit part had sink marks in it, so it wasn't worth trying to scribe planks in it.

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The combined effects of the mod and new floor raise the level of the floor by 1mm, about half a plank, leaving 4 1/2 planks visible inside.

 

The batch so far. Note how the colour of the plastic has varied over the years, much like the paint on the real things.

06.JPG

 

I'll shortly have some time to get cracking on my stockpile of these - I had a bit of an ebay binge earlier in the year - one of those periods of high stress when a bit of therapeutic gambling helps ease the tension and wallet (though I was cautious and lost quite a few). Race you to the longest train, Nile!

 

I must post the "tutorial" I started writing. I don't bother with packing, just stick ends to solebars such that the bottom of the headstock is lined up with the bottom of the solebars. But beware the solebars can need a bit of trimming to get everything square.

[Compound2632]

Side knees: what Spitfire said. Note also that the knees are substantial bits of forged metal, unlike the thin washer-plates on the outside. They would be 2 to 3 inches thick at the bend (where they disappear into the floor) and maybe an inch thick at the top. Below floor-level, they are bent through 90 degrees and have a leg pointing towards the centre of the wagon. These legs are bolted to the middle bearers and the floor planks are rebated on the underside to accommodate them. Nothing of the horizontal part shows above floor level.

 

I shall experiment with the weathered red. I have a wagon to do in SER red that could be finished that way.

 

I expect I am one of many for whom the late Chris Crofts' articles in early numbers of the Model Railway Journal were our education in how wooden railway wagons were actually constructed, as opposed to what appears important in a model. Understanding this does make all the difference to one's approach - even if one doesn't include interior detail (why bother if you are going to have a full coal load or a sheet?) it helps to know what should be there.

 

Yes, the side knees are a key structural component - as Guy says, the 'strapping' on the outside is usually no more than a glorified washer-plate, to stop the nuts digging into the planks of wood (which we know to call sheeting).

Edited May 26, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

 

I must post the "tutorial" I started writing. I don't bother with packing, just stick ends to solebars such that the bottom of the headstock is lined up with the bottom of the solebars. But beware the solebars can need a bit of trimming to get everything square.

 

I do wish you would; having been through my ancient stash, I find I have 3 of these, plus a spare underframe kit (which latter might gain a homemade body, detailed only up to where it meets a tied-down tarp), so "knowing what you know", as opposed to "re-inventing the wheel", might speed me along.  A bit.

 

Quite impressed with Nile's dodge, but I know from posts on your excellent wagon topic that you have your own solution.

[Knuckles]

I have been following the cattle wagon builds quietly waiting for the completion and now I must say how truly impressed I am with the result. You really went to town with these adding and changing so much to produce a result that is, I think, honestly probably the most convincing 4mm models of said wagons I have seen. Your paintwork really brings it out too.

 

I'm a fan of cattle wagons but I doubt I could be bothered to put so much effort in as you have, I've always been happy cobbeling up a few plastic kits as per instructions but after seeing these I may put more effort in. Well done indeed.

 

Is the picture above a wood kit???

[Compound2632]

Is the picture above a wood kit???

 

It's a masterpiece, isn't it?

[Spitfire2865]

It's a masterpiece, isn't it?

Well thank you! I personally wouldnt have gone so far as to say masterpiece. I have quite a lot to improve on yet.

 

Nile, looking good. Hope to see your rake of these to your usual standards.

[Nile]

Thanks for all the posts, most informative. I never knew these wagons had so many knees. I could do with more photos of wagon interiors, my books seem to be full of exterior shots.

Now for my next question, what colour would this interior iron work have been painted? Black, body colour or something else?

[Spitfire2865]

Thanks for all the posts, most informative. I never knew these wagons had so many knees. I could do with more photos of wagon interiors, my books seem to be full of exterior shots.

Now for my next question, what colour would this interior iron work have been painted? Black, body colour or something else?

Id think the interior ironwork was left unpainted. If you need reference to internal ironwork, I could send you a works drawing for the 299.

[Knuckles]

I always paint it the same S the exterior, so if you have a grey wagon with black strapping then the inside likewise. I may be wrong here. Once weathered to death and faded though it matters little.

[Guy Rixon]

I've been painting interior ironwork black. The logic is that it needs some paint to protect it from corrosion and black-leading was a standard finish for metalwork. I would expect all the ironwork to get painted when it was made and put into stock, possibly some time before fitting to the wagon.

 

The external ironwork typically got painted over in body colour, but I would not expect the painters to do the internal ironwork. It would be extra work for no real gain.

 

BTW, I sometimes use black ink in a drawing ("Rotring", but mine's a cheaper brand) pen to colour the internal ironwork. I find it easier to get a neat edge to the black with a pen than with a brush. This is particularly helpful when colouring the side knees, where I need to blacken the parts on three faces. The pen is also good for dotting in bolt heads on the inside of the wagon.

[Compound2632]

I agree with Guy about the ironwork being black out of necessity. My understanding is that interior woodwork wasn't painted. If the purpose of paint is to protect the timber from the elements, this is a bit surprising for open wagons. I can understand that a paint finish wouldn't last long on the inside of a coal wagon; perhaps a merchandise wagon would spend much of its time sheeted over; but what about, for example, the floorboards of a timber truck?

 

What about cattle wagon interiors? I suppose the danger to cattle of licking the lead-based paint wasn't a recognised problem...

 

I'd not really thought about this before - had taken "unpainted" for granted..

[Guy Rixon]

I've never been sure about the unpainted interiors. I've seen a few references to early wagon being creosoted rather than painted. I speculate that this was done both inside and out, but customers started complaining about contamination of the load and orders went out not to treat the interiors. This custom continued, perhaps, after the switch to painted exteriors.

 

Rotting of the floors of timber-carrying wagons, and of OCTs and their like, seems to have been a recognised problem.  Some companies left gaps between the planks to improve drainage. That said, I've never heard that the floors were painted.

 

Googling suggests that cattle actually like the taste of lead and will seek it out. Leaded paint on cattle wagons may have been recognized as a hazard quite early on. Wikipedia suggest that most of the serious research on lead toxicity happened in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s; the primary citation for lead poisoning of cattle seems to be a 1975 paper. It's possible that the effects of  high doses of lead were known historically and the 20th-century research brought out the dangers of light doses, as in fumes from petrol. I suspect that the cattle wagons were not painted inside.

[wagonman]

To the best of my knowledge no wagon interiors were ever painted – neck stuck firmly out there. This includes cattle trucks which were originally lime washed on the inside. This was banned from the mid '20s when a liquid disinfectant was substituted. 

 

 

 

Richard

[Nile]

What a lot of knees! I've done one wagon so far. A length of 10x20 thou micro-strip painted black and then cut into pieces. After sticking to the sides they were weathered a bit.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Nile

[Spitfire2865]

Only the ironwork holding the walls next to the doors are considered knees.

For some reason the Midland engineers decided to put five pieces of ironwork in each corner. A pain in G3, and damn near infuriating in 4mm.

[Compound2632]

Only the ironwork holding the walls next to the doors are considered knees.

For some reason the Midland engineers decided to put five pieces of ironwork in each corner. A pain in G3, and damn near infuriating in 4mm.

 

Aren't the end ones knees as well? I'll have to dig out and re-read Chris Crofts' MRJ articles.

 

Originally, I think, a ship-building term.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[Spitfire2865]

Aren't the end ones knees as well? I'll have to dig out and re-read Chris Crofts' MRJ articles.

 

Originally, I think, a ship-building term.

That might depend on the definition of a knee. The outer end straps attach to the headstocks but they dont bend. The inner ones are just washerplates.

[Compound2632]

That might depend on the definition of a knee. The outer end straps attach to the headstocks but they dont bend. The inner ones are just washerplates.

 

I've looked again at drawing 550 and as far as D299 goes, I stand corrected - the main structural elements holding the sheeting in place are the side knees either side of the door and the wooden end pillars - as far as I can see none of the ironwork at the corners is bolted to any underframe members - I can't see the attachment to the headstocks you mention. But from our previous discussion, you have an earlier version of drawing 550 to the one I have from the Midland Railway Study Centre website.

 

But I've finally gone back to Chris Crofts' first article in MRJ No. 7 and studied his carefully-labelled sketch: wagons with end doors had end knees, same shape as the side knees, to support the ends of the sides at the end door end, where there's no corner-plate etc. to hold everything together. This can be clearly seen in drawing 790 for the D351 end-door version of the standard 5-plank wagon. In this case, as for many PO wagons, the end knees extend above the top of the sheeting to form a bearing for the cross-rod from which the end door hangs.

[Spitfire2865]

I've looked again at drawing 550 and as far as D299 goes, I stand corrected - the main structural elements holding the sheeting in place are the side knees either side of the door and the wooden end pillars - as far as I can see none of the ironwork at the corners is bolted to any underframe members - I can't see the attachment to the headstocks you mention. But from our previous discussion, you have an earlier version of drawing 550 to the one I have from the Midland Railway Study Centre website.

 

But I've finally gone back to Chris Crofts' first article in MRJ No. 7 and studied his carefully-labelled sketch: wagons with end doors had end knees, same shape as the side knees, to support the ends of the sides at the end door end, where there's no corner-plate etc. to hold everything together. This can be clearly seen in drawing 790 for the D351 end-door version of the standard 5-plank wagon. In this case, as for many PO wagons, the end knees extend above the top of the sheeting to form a bearing for the cross-rod from which the end door hangs.

The end pillars are what holds it to the headstock. I meant the end pillars have strapping. Its actually quite surprising there is so little holding the body to the chassis.

I figured there would be end knees on end door wagons but I havent built one yet so I havent had experience with them.

[Nile]

A month has passed by without much happening here, but I've not been completely bone idle, just mostly.

To follow on from where I left off, I fitted the knees and strapping to the insides of the other wagons.

 

 

Then followed a slow process of painting some bits black, applying transfers, weathering, fitting couplings, fitting wheels. This was the end result.

 

 

A close up of some of them. The one on the left is from the final batch built, with brakes on both sides.

 

 

To increase their usefulness (to me) two of them have LMS markings on one side.

 

 

Finally I revisited the one I'd built before and tried to improve it's chassis. I've filed the ends of the solebars where they meet the headstocks to make the step less obvious. The number plate is still in the wrong place, I can live with that for now.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Nile