RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 3, 2014 Hi all, I thought it was about time to bring into use the crossover on my Prestatyn layout. At present, the two main lines have a loop each at the front of the layout and 5 loops each at the back in the fiddle yard; the main lines are not joined electrically but operate independently - it's all DC so a feed from each controller and an isolating section in each fiddle yard loop is as complicated as it gets! The pointwork at the front of the layout thus far has been cosmetic; the points and single slip work mechanically, but I have been unable to work out how to power them to allow for trains crossing over the line. Edit: Please note as mentioned in the next post that all the points are electrofrog! Here's the diagram; apologies for it being so rough: Movements would include a DMU arriving from the right and stopping at B, then reversing across the lines to A, then proceeding into the Bay platform. Then the movement could be reversed. Also, a train might come to rest at C, and then reverse back to D...and so on. The power feeds are at the two arrows; the loops are separated electrically as I've used isolating joiners where you see the gaps. Please could someone advise me as to how I power this crossing using one or other of the feeds; please use simple language as my knowledge of electronics is minimal and I get easily confused, hence the present arrangement!! Many thanks David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted June 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 3, 2014 I was expecting more knowledgeable people to reply, but as they haven't yet ...... If you're using insulfrog points, as far as I understand things you don't need to do anything, accepting you'll be passing a train changing from one oval to the other from one controller to the other, so you might get a stutter unless you match the power settings exactly. Alternatively you could use a couple of double-pole double-throw (DPDT) centre-off switches so one controller can control both ovals as you make the switch. I don't think the slip poses any additional wiring problems, but I've never used one so I could be wrong. Most people would advise that you feed power to more one point on each oval, indeed some would say to every piece of track, to guard against fishplates and point blades not conducting power properly, but this wouldn't need any clever switching, just more wire. But if you're using electrofrog points, you'll be in a different world of pain and the slip takes me completely out of my comfort zone! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 4, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 4, 2014 I was expecting more knowledgeable people to reply, but as they haven't yet ...... If you're using insulfrog points, as far as I understand things you don't need to do anything, accepting you'll be passing a train changing from one oval to the other from one controller to the other, so you might get a stutter unless you match the power settings exactly. Alternatively you could use a couple of double-pole double-throw (DPDT) centre-off switches so one controller can control both ovals as you make the switch. I don't think the slip poses any additional wiring problems, but I've never used one so I could be wrong. Most people would advise that you feed power to more one point on each oval, indeed some would say to every piece of track, to guard against fishplates and point blades not conducting power properly, but this wouldn't need any clever switching, just more wire. But if you're using electrofrog points, you'll be in a different world of pain and the slip takes me completely out of my comfort zone! Ah! Therein lies the problem; I should have said - yes, they're electrofrog! Great for smooth running; nightmare for sorting out situations like this!! I'll amend the post above and see if anyone else jumps in... Thanks for the reply David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Hello David Yes all my points are electrofrog - with one exception - my single slip. Too late you cried - with the insulfrog version all that is needed is a pair of track feeds and some insulated joiners to ensure that the crossing is treated as a single unit. I would have thought that there were wiring instructions with the electrofrog slip - I think I decided it would need polarity switches on the point motors. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted June 4, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 4, 2014 Hi The single slip will need switches to change the polarity of the crossings depending on which way the blades are set. There should have been a diagram in the box and if it is a code 55 slip then they should have the required dropper wires already attached. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yes I too have revisited some boxes - there are wiring details for the double and single slip in with any electrofrog turnout. If you are operating the point manually you will need to replicate the required microswitches by adding a couple of single pole double throw switches into your track feed. What I don't know - and perhaps others will know the answer, but for the single slip I am wondering if you could get away with just one double throw switch. Sorry to haven not been more help Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I have an Electrofrog Code 55 single slip on my layout. I control it using 2 Tortoise point motors and I use the accessory switches on the tortoise to control the frog polarity, there are 2 Frogs and two Tortoises so one Tortoise switch controls one frog, etc. Regardless of the point motors and switches that you use, you'll need to completely isolate the slip from the surrounding tracks, so that's 4 gaps rather than the 2 you show on the diagram. This is because with Electrofrog points the road that is set against the point is still electrically live, on an insulfrog point the road set against the point is electrically isolated. Then you'll need to wire your power feed directly to the 2 center rails of the slip, Peco provide two dropper wires from the center, so use these. Just to be clear these dropper wires are at the shallow angle of the 2 outer rails. There are also two more dropper wires, one from each crossing vee, or frog. Each of these should be wired to the appropriate switch or point motor, again if you use Tortoise I wouldn't worry about getting the polarity of the wires right first time, I generally hook up the wires, throw the point and then check that I have electrical continuity on the appropraite rails, if I get it backwarsd then I swap the wires. I'm not in front of my layout at the moment so this is all from hazy memory. Hope this helps, Oh I've been following your layout thread and it looks really good. John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 4, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 4, 2014 Thank you all; yes the slip is code 55 and the wires have been threaded down through the baseboard so all I need in that case are suitable switches. As the movements I describe are few and far between I'm going to leave them as manual points, and mount the switches on the control panel. So if I understand it correctly: When the point is changed the power should flow through to the next section; if this is isolated I need another switched feed to that section to continue the powered route; when this is the slip I need to 'cut off' the other sides of the slip leaving only the selected route powered; this I can achieve with switches using the wires attached, but it's a bit hit-and-miss to set up so it's just trial and error to get right. However, once it works, the rest of the points can then be thrown accordingly, and the power from the feed should flow through the route selected... If that's not right, can someone correct me please?! Oh, and if anyone could show all this on the diagram I would be most grateful!! Thanks again David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Assuming all your points are electrofrog then you'll need more isolation to get things to work properly. You describe a movement of a DMU arriving from the right and stopping past point B. You then change the point to allow the DMU to cross over the main running lines to the bay. When you switch point B you will find that you created a short circuit from B back to your main power feeds, even if you don't sees short you will find that there is no power on the switched route of the point B. The safest solution is to electrically isolate all your electrofrog points and then provide a separate power feed to the toe end of each point. Then you can either rely on the point blades to provide electrical contact, or wire up the frog of each point to a suitable microswitches to change the frog polarity. In my experience with code 55 points the point blades are unreliable so I have used switches on every point. I think things have worked so far because you imply that none of the 4 points or the slip in the ladder that gets you from the bottom loop to the top loop have actually been used yet It would probably be helpful if you have a voltmeter. You can then isolate all the points and then as you switch them you can measure the track voltage at the input to the point, which should be the toe, if after switching the point you no longer have a voltage across the toe then that is where you need an extra power feed. You have 4 points and a slip as you move from the bottom loop to the top, if the point that switches from the bottom loop is number 1, and the slip is number 4, then you will need power feeds at the toe of points 1 and 3 and in the middle of the slip Regards, John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 To keep it simple provide every crossing (frog) with a switch which mimics the setting of the point blades so that its electrical polarity is determined by the route set. The crossing is completely isolated otherwise - that is no rails are electrically tied to it. Once you have done this you can effectively treat the crossing like an Insulfrog one. On your other point I would advise you not to pass a train from one controller to another by matching speed and direction. A more elegant solution would be to provide your sections with switches so that they can be connected to the same controller for any move between the two, reverting to the separated feeds once the move is complete. As others have said two controllers are easy - you just wire each section using a double pole, double throw switch. Easy to spot these - they have six solder tags! You wire your section switches so that each section can be connected to either controller A or B - never both. For normal operations one section is A the other is B - to crossover both sections are switched to A (or B - it doesn't matter which). If you extend this philosophy to the whole layout you have what used to be called "cab control". Just trying to be helpful! Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 5, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2014 Ah, so that's what 'cab control' means - I always use to wonder when I heard it being talked about at exhibitions but didn't want to expose my ignorance by asking across a busy exhibition layout! This is all sounding much clearer now; it seems the best thing to do is isolate all the points and introduce switches to the bottom one, middle one and the slip with a feed from the controller, switchable between the two supplies. Then I can see which bit needs power and which doesn't as I go along. Thank you all for your help; I wouldn't have got anywhere near this solution on my own!! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Ah, so that's what 'cab control' means - I always use to wonder when I heard it being talked about at exhibitions but didn't want to expose my ignorance by asking across a busy exhibition layout! This is all sounding much clearer now; it seems the best thing to do is isolate all the points and introduce switches to the bottom one, middle one and the slip with a feed from the controller, switchable between the two supplies. Then I can see which bit needs power and which doesn't as I go along. Thank you all for your help; I wouldn't have got anywhere near this solution on my own!! David If it would be helpful I can do a sketch to show you how to wire your sections for "cab control". It's called that because the idea is you pair up a controller to a loco and then switch all the sections on the route so that the supply is uninterrupted. Just post a "yes please" and I will post a sketch. Chaz PS - don't worry about displaying ignorance - especially not on this forum - most of us are more than willing to help anyone who asks... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 5, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2014 If it would be helpful I can do a sketch to show you how to wire your sections for "cab control". It's called that because the idea is you pair up a controller to a loco and then switch all the sections on the route so that the supply is uninterrupted. Just post a "yes please" and I will post a sketch. Chaz PS - don't worry about displaying ignorance - especially not on this forum - most of us are more than willing to help anyone who asks... Thanks Chaz - yes please! I've been on Rmweb for over 3 years now and have got used to freely airing my lack of knowledge, and in return have received some excellent responses; but it's not always easy to be the one with all the questions! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted June 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2014 If it would be helpful I can do a sketch to show you how to wire your sections for "cab control". It's called that because the idea is you pair up a controller to a loco and then switch all the sections on the route so that the supply is uninterrupted. Just post a "yes please" and I will post a sketch. Chaz PS - don't worry about displaying ignorance - especially not on this forum - most of us are more than willing to help anyone who asks... Yes please! Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 OK, will post sketch this evening... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Basic cab control 2 controllers as many sections as you want all sections isolated with double rail breaks hope that's some help Chaz PS - this is electrics, not electronics (no semi-conductors!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Try this:- If you do not have common return on the outer rail you will need to add four insulated joiners where marked in red (if common return on the outer rail no need for the three insulated joiners in the outer rail). You will have to add a new feed where marked, and this feed needs to be switched between the other two feeds depending on the position of the right tiebar of the slip (use a PL15 switch or the auxilliary contacts on the tortoise, toggle switch etc.). This will meet all your stated requirements with all crossover activity being controlled by the inner controller whenever the slip crossover is set to crossover. If more granular segregation is required the switching can be made more complex to allow movement in loop 'B' under the outer controller while a train is crossing over to loop 'D' on the inner controller, but it is probably not worth the effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 5, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2014 Huge thanks Chaz and Suzie - very clear and helpful diagrams and explanation - it's all new to me so it's great to have such knowledge so freely available! I'll work through the specifics over the next few weekends and see how we go; thanks again David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I meant to add in my posting... If you have a diamond crossing, single slip or double slip, which is in two quite separate routes, it is best to wire this as a section on its own, isolated from the track on either side on both routes. It does mean more switches but it gives full flexibility. If you don't mind adding to the complexity a little you could use the switch that throws one of the points leading to the slip to connect it automatically to the route section. This is often done with a relay - maybe better not to muddy the water, although if you would like details I would be quite happy to say more..... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grafarman Posted June 6, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2014 I meant to add in my posting... If you have a diamond crossing, single slip or double slip, which is in two quite separate routes, it is best to wire this as a section on its own, isolated from the track on either side on both routes. It does mean more switches but it gives full flexibility. If you don't mind adding to the complexity a little you could use the switch that throws one of the points leading to the slip to connect it automatically to the route section. This is often done with a relay - maybe better not to muddy the water, although if you would like details I would be quite happy to say more..... Chaz Thanks Chaz; I think I have enough to be going on with for now, but I may come back to this at a later stage if that's ok! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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