Adams B4

[linz61]

According to some shedding records I have, it seems not all the B4 tanks that Dapol announced back in March trundled around the LSWR.
One worked for a short time at Dover (83) from Jan ’48 before moving back a little west to Ashford Chart Leacon Oct ’50. I don’t know what happened to it after that. According to Graham Muz's blog (keep up the excellent modelling work, sir.), this was one of the last K14 batch?  

 

I wonder what livery it wore at this time but as it’s number is the original perhaps still it was in it's original Southern black and lined (?).
 

Then later, there was one more based at Dover (30086), transferred across from Stewarts Lane in May ’54 before moving back west again to Guildford in Aug ’56. This, again according to Graham, was one of the original B4 batch (?). I presume this one wore the black with an early BR emblem. But did it have the enclosed or open cab, Adams pipe and boiler cap? After a fair amount of trawling, I can't find any pictures to prove either way.
Can anyone possibly confirm if my information is correct, please?

 

It would be good if it were, as my (proposed) layout will be based loosely on Sandling Junction down near the SE Kent coast. Although modellers licence allows it, it would be great to have a legitimate reason to have one of these little beauties trundling past even if I am not modelling a yard or a dock scene. (:

Thanks in advance for any help from you wiser members here.

[phil-b259]

IIRC all the B4s got enclosed cabs during WW2 - the open (or nearly open) one as featured by Normandy on the Bluebell made them rather obvious from the air and given their area of operations were prime targets for being bombed I would have thought the fitment would have been pretty rapid.

[linz61]

IIRC all the B4s got enclosed cabs during WW2 - the open (or nearly open) one as featured by Normandy on the Bluebell made them rather obvious from the air and given their area of operations were prime targets for being bombed I would have thought the fitment would have been pretty rapid.

Yes, indeed…. Thanks Phil. I reckon then their nice black with green lining that they had went over to all black (and grime) then too.

 

Presumably, working so close to the the sea they (and other dock working locos) suffered from the more than usual adverse effects of being in a salt laden environment? Apart from the bombings too they got in these high target value areas….ahem.

[linz61]

Just a quick addendum….according to SeMG it seems '86 also acquired the name HAVRE and 83 was actually designed by Drummond and not Adams or should that be modified by Drummond?

[bécasse]

No. 83 had worked at Chislet Colliery on loan to the NCB before being transferred to Dover. It would have been in SR black and, as it is recorded as having been fitted with an Adams-pattern boiler in January 1941, it is likely to have had Bulleid-style SOUTHERN lettering plus its number on the tank side (and its number on the front buffer beam and cab back). Its move to Ashford (not Chart Leacon which didn't exist then) in October 1950 was almost certainly for shopping, so this is when it would have received its BR number and livery including smokebox numberplate. It wasn't withdrawn until November 1959 so it might have acquired the later BR livery at some stage post-1956 (although it is more likely to have had its final shopping just before the livery change).

 

No. 86 whose WWII cab sheet extensions had small rectangular windows either side of the existing round central one (both front and back) was the first B4 to be renumbered after nationalisation in September 1948. It is said that its new number 30086 was painted only on the front buffer beam and the cab rear - almost certainly in Bulleid-style numbers - with the tank side only carrying the name HAVRE, again in Bulleid-style lettering. No. 30086 was shopped again in February 1953, losing the name and acquiring a small BR (early) crest plus the number 30086 (in 10" figures, probably) on the tank side (both having the same base line and looking a little odd as a result), plus the normal BR smokebox number plate. It was withdrawn in March 1959 so this may well have been its final livery.

[linz61]

No. 83 had worked at Chislet Colliery on loan to the NCB before being transferred to Dover. It would have been in SR black and, as it is recorded as having been fitted with an Adams-pattern boiler in January 1941, it is likely to have had Bulleid-style SOUTHERN lettering plus its number on the tank side (and its number on the front buffer beam and cab back). Its move to Ashford (not Chart Leacon which didn't exist then) in October 1950 was almost certainly for shopping, so this is when it would have received its BR number and livery including smokebox numberplate. It wasn't withdrawn until November 1959 so it might have acquired the later BR livery at some stage post-1956 (although it is more likely to have had its final shopping just before the livery change).

 

No. 86 whose WWII cab sheet extensions had small rectangular windows either side of the existing round central one (both front and back) was the first B4 to be renumbered after nationalisation in September 1948. It is said that its new number 30086 was painted only on the front buffer beam and the cab rear - almost certainly in Bulleid-style numbers - with the tank side only carrying the name HAVRE, again in Bulleid-style lettering. No. 30086 was shopped again in February 1953, losing the name and acquiring a small BR (early) crest plus the number 30086 (in 10" figures, probably) on the tank side (both having the same base line and looking a little odd as a result), plus the normal BR smokebox number plate. It was withdrawn in March 1959 so this may well have been its final livery.

Thanks for the great bit of history. That was exactly what I had been searching in vain for. Having information about any loco/station/scene etc I consider modelling brings more life to the times and scenes I feel I am trying to recreate. Ah yes, of course, Ashford was just Ashford back in those times. 

 

By the way, having been brought up around Ashford and knowing the town, the station and the works as I did through the 70s and 80s, I am amazed that for such an important railway building centre that I can't find more photos or books chronicling the history of the place or am I just not looking hard enough? I have the Middleton Press books on Ashford to Folkestone and Ashford to Canterbury and Ramsgate. Any pointers as to other books or sites I should be looking at would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thanks again bA©casse. 

 

Linz

[Ferrymaster]

You will find an article on the Dover Seafront railway in the local history journal 'Bygone Kent' Vol 8 No 1 January 1987. It has a few photos of B4 30084 at Dover from local sources which I have not seen in railway publications. The article is informative and being a local history publication are generally well researched. Copies can generally be found on the internet auction sites or local book shops for a few pounds. 

[phil gollin]

.

 

I remember someone asking how Class 08 diesels got to and from their operating areas from the works  -  under their own power (20 mph) or towed.

 

Well, the same can apply to such small shunters as the B4  -  would they be sent in the wee small hours on the slow lines under their own power or would their coupling rods be removed and towed ?

 

Thanks.

[Oldddudders]

.

 

I remember someone asking how Class 08 diesels got to and from their operating areas from the works  -  under their own power (20 mph) or towed.

 

Well, the same can apply to such small shunters as the B4  -  would they be sent in the wee small hours on the slow lines under their own power or would their coupling rods be removed and towed ?

 

Thanks.

My belief - no more than that - is that in the steam era the railway was a much slower place, with part-fitted and unfitted freights etc grinding along, so finding a pathway for a rather slow light engine might not be a problem as it would be more recently?

[Mike]

4 B4's were sold to Stewart & Lloyds in the Black Country by the Southern in 1949 and lasted about 4 years before being scrapped. I use my 0 gauge model on Reely Grate and  Primrose Hill both set in the Black Country.

[linz61]

.

 

I remember someone asking how Class 08 diesels got to and from their operating areas from the works  -  under their own power (20 mph) or towed.

 

Well, the same can apply to such small shunters as the B4  -  would they be sent in the wee small hours on the slow lines under their own power or would their coupling rods be removed and towed ?

 

Thanks.

Hi Phil, I can remember standing on my old home station of Wye and also at Canterbury West back in the 70s as a school kid and seeing engine light Class 08s chuntering along from time to time to and from Ashford. These were always during daylight hours. I suppose going flat out at 20 mph but it seemed faster…maybe.

[linz61]

My belief - no more than that - is that in the steam era the railway was a much slower place, with part-fitted and unfitted freights etc grinding along, so finding a pathway for a rather slow light engine might not be a problem as it would be more recently?

Just as an aside, so what about say the faster expresses such as the (few) BoBs and WCs etc that moved up and back from Dover? Presumably they would more often be pulling a scheduled passenger service up or down and then when they reached their desired designations another loco would take over for the return trip rather than possibly 'waste' a journey going engine light? I know it seems obvious but just thought I'd ask. 

[Oldddudders]

Just as an aside, so what about say the faster expresses such as the (few) BoBs and WCs etc that moved up and back from Dover? Presumably they would more often be pulling a scheduled passenger service up or down and then when they reached their desired designations another loco would take over for the return trip rather than possibly 'waste' a journey going engine light? I know it seems obvious but just thought I'd ask. 

Steam locos required a great deal more fettling and TLC than their modern counterparts, so yes, on arrival at Dover a loco would go light engine to the local shed to receive whatever attention and victualing - i.e. coal and water - was required, and be turned if needed. It was then available to the Shedmaster to await its next working, which would typically be a booked return working to London. In those days sheds were nearly everywhere that trains regularly started and finished, so even in the last year of steam on the SE there were sheds at Gillingham, Faversham, Ramsgate, Dover, Folkestone, Ashford and Tonbridge as well as the London area sheds. Does that help?

 

EDIT If you look at Post #59 in this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73357-bude-station-yard-etc/page-3&do=findComment&comment=1477314 you will see Nigel B has posted a typical booked engine working, albeit at the other end of Southern Region in Cornwall, but the same format would apply.

[N15class]

I am sure long before BR time they would be in plain black. Black with green lining went out in the very early thirties.

[bécasse]

I knew that I had more notes on the B4 class stashed away somewhere but they took some finding, and, inevitably, when I did find them they weren't arranged in a way that made it easy to extract information about locos that had worked in Kent. However, I have been able to uncover rather more details than I was able to give before and, for completeness, I have included all relevant information below, and it should be noted that this sometimes corrects information I gave before.

 

There were three principal reasons why B4 locos were seen in Kent, some were overhauled at Ashford Works post-WWII (initially because Eastleigh was overwhelmed with work), several (but only one at a time) were nominally allocated to Ashford Shed but in reality spent all their time shunting at the NCB colliery at Chislet, and several (but again generally only one at a time) were allocated to Dover Shed, principally for working the awkward sea-front line to Eastern Docks. In addition to these locos in Kent, B4s had been seen on the Eastern Section at Stewarts Lane (to work the milk sidings) and at Angerstein Wharf (on unsuccessful trial). Generally, at all these locations P 0-6-0T locos were substituted when the rostered B4 wasn't available for any reason (including works visits) ; Ps were able to negotiate any trackwork that a B4 could but were less powerful.

 

Locos overhauled at Ashford would have had a subsequent running in trip which I suspect would most likely have been to Appledore and back, where the combination of a sparse timetable and double track would have enabled them to be slotted in without incurring delays to the booked service.

 

The first B4 to be overhauled at Ashford was 81 in August 1945. It worked in steam from Southampton via the coast and Eastbourne (probably going shed to shed at night) and returned via Tonbridge and Redhill, partly in steam and partly in a goods train. Subsequent locos overhauled at Ashford included 86/30086 in August 1948 but unfortunately I don't seem to have a full list.

 

B4s that were allocated to Ashford for shunting at Chislet Colliery were 89 TROUVILLE from February 1949, then 96 NORMANDY from August 1949 and finally 30083 from September 1950 to July 1951.

 

89 TROUVILLE was still in Docks brown (which looked black in service) with red lining, and with its number on the front buffer beam (right of coupling) and on the cab back (immediately under the handrail), like the name on the side tank these were in a style peculiar to this Docks livery. It had an Adams full cab, Adams boiler and Drummond chimney, and, like all ex-Docks engines, steam heating hoses were fitted.

 

96 NORMANDY was in all, unlined, black, with the name and numbers in the same place as 89 but in Bulleid goods engine shaded style. It had a typical Docks ARP cab with central portholes and small rectangular windows either side both front and rear, and, again had steam heating hoses.

 

30083 was in BR unlined black with early medium crest and 10” numerals, the crest and number being on the same horizontal centreline; there was a smokebox numberplate. It had a Drummond full cab and chimney and Adams boiler, but no steam heating fitments.

 

At Dover two B4s were briefly trialled working the reopened train ferry sidings and these were 83 from December 1947 to August 1948 and 30086 from then until February 1949. Later the Eastern Docks tramway, previously worked by Ps, became increasingly busy and 30084 was allocated to Dover for this duty from October 1951 until mid-1959, 30086 also also returning briefly from April 1954 to July 1955.

 

83 (at this time) was in Bulleid goods engine black livery with shaded number and SOUTHERN on the tank side, and shaded numbers on the front buffer beam and cab rear (at mid-height). It had a Drummond full cab and chimney and Adams boiler, but no steam heating fittings.

 

30084 was in BR unlined black with early medium crest and 10” numerals, the crest and number being on the same horizontal centreline; there was a smokebox numberplate. It had a Drummond full cab, boiler and chimney, but no steam heating fittings.

 

30086 during its first visit was in a unique black unlined livery with the name TROUVILLE (but no number) on the side tank and the BR number on the front buffer beam and on the cab rear (probably just below the handrail), name and numbers being in Bulleid shaded style. During its second visit it was in BR unlined black with early medium crest and 10” numerals, the crest and number being on the same horizontal baseline and there was a smokebox numberplate. Both times it had a typical Docks ARP cab with central portholes and small rectangular windows either side both front and rear, and steam heating hoses.

 

None of the locos working in Kent ever acquired the later BR crest, 30096 at Eastleigh being the only example of the class to do so.