buffalo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 That's an interesting find, Gareth. The ends are much higher (5 planks above the sides) than the one you showed earlier and it looks like a good match for the one in the H&P photo. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Slightly off topic, but the low open GWR wagon in the foreground of the Huntley & Palmer photo has unusual axleguards, at least for the GWR, in that the springs are inside the guard, and very little of the axlebox protrudes in front. I cannot find one like it in GWR Goods Wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The photo in post 10, it looks more broad gauge than standard like the coach behind Does the wagon number (29382) indicate in any way whether this is BG or NG? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Slightly off topic, but the low open GWR wagon in the foreground of the Huntley & Palmer photo has unusual axleguards, at least for the GWR, in that the springs are inside the guard, and very little of the axlebox protrudes in front. I cannot find one like it in GWR Goods Wagons. Axleguards bolted to the inside of iron or outside of wooden solebars with the springs mounted between them and the wheels are a common feature of many 19th century wagons on the GWR and elsewhere. If you look at Richard's photo of the tilt wagon in post #10, you will see a similar arrangement. You're unlikely to find anything like this in Atkins et al. as they only cover wagons that were incorporated in the diagram book which was first compiled in 1905. Are you sure it is a GWR wagon? I can't see anything that would make for firm identification. Does the wagon number (29382) indicate in any way whether this is BG or NG? It would if we had the information. I had a check through the BGS data sheet index and found that I don't have any of the ones on tilt waggons, although the sheets that have been produced appear to cover earlier types from the 1840s. I then found an article by Alan Garner on modelling tilt waggons in BGS Broadsheet no 61 in which he says the BG numbers are unknown, but suggests, as a guess, that 1800-2499 might be appropriate. Whether there is any information on narrow gauge numbering, I don't know. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I have found this; translated from Dutch, quite a bit of information about the history although no mention of narrow gauge versions. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&ie=UTF-8&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blokpost-nul.nl%2FProject_BG_Tilt_CDJ%2FProject_BG_Tilt_cdj.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I've also put this together this afternoon. Width is 7'6", same as the O5 wagon I had on the workbench. Any thoughts? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I have found this; translated from Dutch, quite a bit of information about the history although no mention of narrow gauge versions. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&ie=UTF-8&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blokpost-nul.nl%2FProject_BG_Tilt_CDJ%2FProject_BG_Tilt_cdj.htm Thanks for finding that, Gareth. Cor De Jong has made many superb BG models and I had lost my bookmark to his old site. His old site had many pages in English as well as Dutch, his English being far better than Google's translation. The information on that page is mostly from the kit instructions, although the NRM drawing is only referenced by number. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I've also put this together this afternoon. Width is 7'6", same as the O5 wagon I had on the workbench. Any thoughts? You've been busy! I'm still thinking about it. From my examination of the photo (post#10), I think the hoops should go inside the wagon sides. The ends also seem to be inset by the depth of the vertical stanchions. I've made some preliminary sketches and have also assumed a width of 7' 6". Because the prototype seems to be of metal construction, I'm planning to do the same for my model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yes, Mike, the bonnet wrapper does go inside the sides. This is clear from both Richard's photo and the NRM drawing on Cor De Jong's page. The angle pieces at the top of the sides continues to the ends of the wagon. If you look carefully at the model photos on De Jong's page, you may be able to see the cunning way this is done in the kit. The outer layer of the sides and the bonnets (above the sides) are a single etched piece with all the outside rivet door detail. An overlay with the inside detail is slightly smaller than the outer sides and so provides a registration step for both the ends and the floor. It also ensures that the ends of the sides donot look too thick when viewed from the ends. The whole piece is then wrapped around and soldered to the ends. Unfortunately, this does mean there is an incorrect step at the top of the sides behind the bonnets but, being in shadow under the bonnet, it is only really visible when you know it is there. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I then found an article by Alan Garner on modelling tilt waggons in BGS Broadsheet no 61 in which he says the BG numbers are unknown, but suggests, as a guess, that 1800-2499 might be appropriate. Whether there is any information on narrow gauge numbering, I don't know. I notice his guess is for 4-digit numbers, whereas the wagon in #10 has a 5-digit number. Anyone know if this is indicative of it being NG? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 No, there were plenty of BG wagons with five digit numbers and plenty of NG wagons with four digit numbers. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Thanks. I think modifying the sides to match the wrapper will be easiest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Do to my inability to cut square, a little filler was needed. Should be fine when painted. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Very nice! You dont fancy making another two, by chance? D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Very nice! You dont fancy making another two, by chance? D I'm going to do this one, make sure people agree the general features are right, then make three more. Incidentally, when BG wagons were converted to NG, did they keep their wheel diameter? These were built with 3'6" wheels, are those what I need or would they have been changed to 3' wheels in rebuilding? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 If we are right in thinking that Richard's photo is NG then, comparing with other know dimensions, the wheels appear to be about 41". Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I made a sketch from the photo in #10 and scaled it to an assumed 9' 9" wheelbase (39mm in 4mm/ft scale). When compared with the BGS model, the height of the bonnets is lower. This suggests a smaller narrower vehicle. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I think you are right about the lower height of the bonnet, Mike. On my BG IKB/BGS kit the height from bottom of buffer beam to top of bonnet is 34.5mm. Not only is your 31mm more in line with Richard's photo, it also looks more balanced and aesthetically correct, not that that is any guide to what they did in the 1890s. btw, another thought on the numbers question. I don't recall seeing any BG wagon from the 1850s, when they were built, with more than a four digit number, so the five digit number might be an indication of a converted wagon. Of course, they might equally have been renumbered in the BG era. I wonder if there is any information surviving about the conversion lots, unlike earlier c19 wagon registers? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I've also measured the Alan Prior (4mm/ft scale) drawing of a BG wagon. The height from bottom of buffer beam to top of round end is also 34.5mm. The width of the body is about 34mm (8' 6"). As with the other examples, the end appears to be roughly circular. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I am aware of three 4mm scale kits for BG Tilts. Mike Sharman did a white metal one in 1970s. BGS had a white metal kit in the 80s BGS bought the etched IKB kit referred to above and it is currently available via BGS website in 4 and 7mm. Neither of the white metal versions are currently on sale but all produce quite different models. Tilts evolved! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm not sure about the Sharman one but, IIRC, the BGS white metal kit was of the earlier 1840 version, itself a development of the 1838 version. I've only seen models built from either of the white metal kits in the corners of small photos. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Alan Prior's drawing is of the early wagon, it doesn't have the band around the end that is so distinctive. I kept the height of the BG wagon when I made my NG one, therefore it is a bit oblong. Looks a little odd and should probably be round. If I use 9" solebars then the total height is 36mm. I think it would be more visually pleasing with a round end. I suppose it all depends on how they were converted. If they just cut a bit out the middle then it would be more like a gothic arch, if the end is round then they must have rebuilt the whole thing. That must have added to the cost quite considerably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The Alan Prior drawing is described as c.1848, in the contents list. His drawing doesn't show any wrapper around the ends. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 It's worth looking at the Swindon dump photos (in several books including Atkins et al., and small copies here and here on the Steam photo gallery). These and other photos show a range of bonnet widths from none to perhaps three feet or so. I doubt if bonnet width alone is a key to dating their original build. As to how the ends were altered, remember that the stantions are not just decoration or strengthening, they probably cover butt joints in the iron sheeting. The BG version has four sheets making up its ends to about 9'9" wide. Three of these sheets would give a width of 7'33/4". A bit narrow, perhaps, but close enough to an expected inside dimension for a NG wagon. Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) If we are right in thinking that Richard's photo is NG then, comparing with other know dimensions, the wheels appear to be about 41". Nick My own measurement seems pretty close to 3' 6" for the wheels. (14mm in 4mm/ft) Mike EDIT sorry, Nick, I'd misread your measurement as 4' 1", not 41" Edited July 2, 2014 by MikeOxon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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