GWR standard gauge tilt wagons

[buffalo]

My own measurement seems nearer to 3' 6" for the wheels. (14mm in 4mm/ft)

 

Well, we're both inside normal wear tolerances on a 3'6" wheel. On your image you've marked it as 13.5mm which scales to 40¹/₂" or 3'4¹/₂". My "about 41" scales to 3'5", Both are essentially the same within measuring tolerances and good enough to assume a 3'6" wheel (42").

 

Nick

[drduncan]

My own measurement seems pretty close to 3' 6" for the wheels. (14mm in 4mm/ft)

 

BG-NGcomp.jpg

Mike

 

EDIT sorry, Nick, I'd misread your measurement as 4' 1", not 41"

Mike,

A very useful drawing, many thanks.

Duncan

[wagonman]

I notice his guess is for 4-digit numbers, whereas the wagon in #10  has a 5-digit number.   Anyone know if this is indicative of it being NG?

 

I've not seen a BG wagon with a number as high as this but there were lots of NG open wagons with numbers in the 2xxxx range. On that rather reductive basis – along with all the other evidence – I would plump for this wagon being NG.

 

Richard

[Miss Prism]

I've not seen a BG wagon with a number as high as this but there were lots of NG open wagons with numbers in the 2xxxx range. On that rather reductive basis – along with all the other evidence – I would plump for this wagon being NG.

4-digits seem to be the norm for post-1892 NG opens, so I'm wondering if the 5-digit series was introduced for the BG conversions. It's true that 5-digit numbers featured also for later NG opens - many opens were categorised generically and retrospectively when the diagram number system was introduced.

 

[buffalo]

I've not seen a BG wagon with a number as high as this but there were lots of NG open wagons with numbers in the 2xxxx range. On that rather reductive basis – along with all the other evidence – I would plump for this wagon being NG.

 

Richard

 

A couple of Crocodiles on one of the dump photos are 33994/6, a ventilated meat van was 10702, four plank opens include 11416, 11170 and 11385 and a three planker was 11530. So both five digit and numbers higher than our tilt waggon were used on the BG. From the lists in Atkins et al., many in the 11xxx series were converted to NG and appear to have retained the same numbers. See also my earlier point that more than four digit numbers are unlikely for waggons built in the 1850s.

 

4-digits seem to be the norm for post-1892 NG opens, so I'm wondering if the 5-digit series was introduced for the BG conversions. It's true that 5-digit numbers featured also for later NG opens - many opens were categorised generically and retrospectively when the diagram number system was introduced.

 

Again, according to the Atkins et al. lists, numbers allocated to four plank wagons, new builds and conversions, between 1887 and 1902 range from 2 to 74725. Of these 24,208 wagons, the great majority carried five digit numbers. Much the same is true of the earlier one, two and three plank wagons.

 

Many of the 29xxx series were (re-)used when the O2 and O10 seven plank wagons were built in 1905-7. This may give us a latest possible date for 29382.

 

Nick

 

Nick

Edited July 3, 2014 by buffalo

[MikeOxon]

 

Are you sure it is a GWR wagon?  I can't see anything that would make for firm identification.

Having looked at the photo full-size, assuming we are talking about wagon no.25637, I can see the letters G.W... disappearing under the tarpaulin at the right hand end, which seems pretty suggestive 

[buffalo]

Having looked at the photo full-size, assuming we are talking about wagon no.25637, I can see the letters G.W... disappearing under the tarpaulin at the right hand end, which seems pretty suggestive 

So is the To Carry script above the number and several other features. How long has that link to the large image been there? I'd not noticed it before. I wonder if it brings us any closer to identifying the wooden ended tilt wagon?

 

Nick

[MikeOxon]

I wonder if it brings us any closer to identifying the wooden ended tilt wagon?

 

Unfortunately, the guys with the narrow-gauge hand-trolleys obscure the sides.  The ends are clearly planked, with wooden frames and a cross-member, level with the tops of the sides.  The ends look similar to the 3mm SER kit mentioned previously in this thread

[Mikkel]

Is the SER wagon on the left hand size of this photo of relevance to the discussion? I don't think it's the same type, there seems to be no vertical framing on the end, but it shows there were SER wagons present (and LSWR ones). 

 

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_fullsizeprint_fr.htm&_IXFIRST_=3&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=gwr&tc2=e&s=ZeiMyuz_Bm0

 

(I keep coming back to that photo.... we really ought to build a collective model of the H&P biscuit factory!)

[MikeOxon]

Is the SER wagon on the left hand size of this photo of relevance to the discussion? I don't think it's the same type, there seems to be no vertical framing on the end, but it shows there were SER wagons present (and LSWR ones). 

 

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_fullsizeprint_fr.htm&_IXFIRST_=3&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=gwr&tc2=e&s=ZeiMyuz_Bm0

 

(I keep coming back to that photo.... we really ought to build a collective model of the H&P biscuit factory!)

Since Reading has a station that was originally LSWR, as well as the GWR station, it seems very likely that wagons from the Southern railways would arrive at the biscuit factory.

[Phil Parker]

Bump

[drduncan]

Many thanks to Phil P for resurrecting the thread from the archival pit of doom so I can post some new info.

 

I have been slowly going through the information in the NRM GWR wagon Stock Book 3/3 Broad Gauge which includes information about the Bristol and Exeter and South Devon Railway rolling stock (and others). I had hoped I might be able to locate NG wagon 25637 - the subject of the photo @MikeOxon found and used for his NG Tilt wagon - unfortunately, I have drawn a blank so far, but I did turn up information on SDR tilt wagons that were converted to standard gauge before the end of the broad gauge. The SDR seems to have had 75 iron bodied and iron underframed BG tilt wagons.

 

Of these, the following were recorded as converted to narrow/standard gauge (BG number given first):

10088 Converted to NG 29559 24/3/1877

10090 Converted to NG 29602 3/11/1877

10091 Converted to NG 29604 15/12/1877

10111 Converted to NG 55508 1/7/1893

10113 Converted to NG 55507 1/7/1893

10115 converted to NG 55506 1/7/1893

10119 converted to NG 55505 1/7/1893

10120 Converted to NG 29605 23/2/1878

10124 converted to NG 29482 10/3?/1877

10132 converted to NG 29579 8/12/1877

10139 converted to NG 55504 1/7/1893

10140 converted to NG 55503 1/7/1893

10148 converted to NG 29500 8/5/1880

10149 converted to NG 55502 1/7/1893

10150 converted to NG 55501 1/7/1893

 

This means that that to pursue this further we need:

• More info on GWR built tilt wagons
• to examine the standard gauge wagon stock books covering nos 29001-30000 and 55001-56000. If anyone has images of these do share!

Regards,

 

Duncan

 

[Compound2632]

As posted elsewhere recently, a crop from a photo of Reading Kings Meadow yard c. 1905:

 

 

On 15/08/2014 at 22:19, MikeOxon said:

Since Reading has a station that was originally LSWR, as well as the GWR station, it seems very likely that wagons from the Southern railways would arrive at the biscuit factory.

 

Point of order: South Eastern, not South Western. Reading station was the terminus of the Reading, Guildford and Reigate Railway, opened 1849 and worked by the South Eastern from the beginning, being absorbed by it in 1850. The South Western reached Reading in 1856, by running powers from Wokingham, on the opening of the Stains, Wokingham and Woking Junction Railway. The splendid set of c. 1900 photos of Huntley & Palmers railway system show many more SER wagons than LSWR wagons, though there are some of the former, along with Great Western and, of course, Midland wagons.

[drduncan]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As posted elsewhere recently, a crop from a photo of Reading Kings Meadow yard c. 1905:

 

 

 

Point of order: South Eastern, not South Western. Reading station was the terminus of the Reading, Guildford and Reigate Railway, opened 1849 and worked by the South Eastern from the beginning, being absorbed by it in 1850. The South Western reached Reading in 1856, by running powers from Wokingham, on the opening of the Stains, Wokingham and Woking Junction Railway. The splendid set of c. 1900 photos of Huntley & Palmers railway system show many more SER wagons than LSWR wagons, though there are some of the former, along with Great Western and, of course, Midland wagons.

But would a GWR sheet be used on a non GWR wagon? Can we assume that company sheets would only be seen on that company’s wagons and not ‘borrowed’ as needed to sheet a load? I suspect the answer is company sheet = company wagon but I haven’t seen a rule for it.

D

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

But would a GWR sheet be used on a non GWR wagon? Can we assume that company sheets would only be seen on that company’s wagons and not ‘borrowed’ as needed to sheet a load? I suspect the answer is company sheet = company wagon but I haven’t seen a rule for it.

D

 

I would expect them to use one of their own on another companies wagon if say a LSWR wagon was returning back to the LSWR loaded with a load that needed a sheet and there wasn't a LSWR sheet available.

 

Interesting seeing a LT&SR one. 

 

 

Jason

[Chrisbr]

On 24/12/2023 at 09:22, drduncan said:

to examine the standard gauge wagon stock books covering nos 29001-30000 and 55001-56000.

29559 (was 10088 BG) Iron Tilt, Iron underframe and body 17' x 7'6" x 2'6", 9' 9" wheelbase, grease axle boxes, rod buffers, Double brake - converted at Swindon in March 1877, condemned March 1897

 

The conversion series runs from 29060 to 29589 for Iron and Barrel Tilts - what was the difference?

 

Chris

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Chrisbr
Number range was incorrect

[drduncan]

50 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

29559 (was 10088 BG) Iron Tilt, Iron underframe and body 17' x 7'6" x 2'6", 9' 9" wheelbase, grease axle boxes, rod buffers, Double brake - converted at Swindon in March 1877, condemned March 1897

 

The conversion series runs from 29050 to 29589 for Iron and Barrel Tilts - what was the difference?

 

Chris

 

 

Thanks @Chrisbr. I wonder if the barrel tilts refers to the wooden variants (GWR) that in some sketches (but I can’t remember quite where I saw them) that had what looked like longer tilts and were planked horizontally.

D

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, drduncan said:

But would a GWR sheet be used on a non GWR wagon?

 

No, not pre-pooling. The point of the picture is that under this GWR sheet is a GWR tilt wagon, in service c. 1905. (But the sheet does seem to be a different pattern to the one on the ordinary open wagon next in line, which is lettered GW rather than GWR.)

 

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Interesting seeing a LT&SR one. 

 

I hadn't spotted that - thanks! (Too dazzled by the Midland D299.) 

[richbrummitt]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the sheet does seem to be a different pattern to the one on the ordinary open wagon next in line, which is lettered GW rather than GWR. 

The nearer one with GW is a newer style than the one on the tilt wagon. Much more detail in the appendices of GWW, 3rd ed, which tells us the newer style appeared from ~1903. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/12/2023 at 10:37, drduncan said:

But would a GWR sheet be used on a non GWR wagon? Can we assume that company sheets would only be seen on that company’s wagons and not ‘borrowed’ as needed to sheet a load? I suspect the answer is company sheet = company wagon but I haven’t seen a rule for it.

D

Wagon sheets, ropes and packing were not common user.  If forwarded to a 'foreign ' station all sheets and packing etc had to be returned in the eagin they had arrived in (unless iot could be backloaded to its home company).

[Compound2632]

So, anyway, any offers on the identity (type - number unknown) of this tilt wagon at Reading c. 1905? Is it likely to be of the same type as @MikeOxon modelled? Are there any known examples that lasted that long, noting the 1897 withdrawal date for the 1877 conversion from BG mentioned by @Chrisbr?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[Chrisbr]

On 27/12/2023 at 17:19, Compound2632 said:

So, anyway, any offers on the identity (type - number unknown) of this tilt wagon at Reading c. 1905? Is it likely to be of the same type as @MikeOxon modelled? Are there any known examples that lasted that long, noting the 1897 withdrawal date for the 1877 conversion from BG mentioned by @Chrisbr?

Of the 498 I could read the condemned date in the 29xxx series, 2 didn't make it to 1880, 19 went in the 1880s, 397 went in the 1890s (albeit only 3 in 1892) and the remaining 80 in 1900's with 8 having a date of 1905 or later.

1905 - 29393 and 29530

1906 - 29392, 29472 and 29576

1907 - 29231 and 29400

1908 - 29380

Most if not all this series were Iron bodies and certainly all 8 having survived to 1905 were Iron bodied.

 

So to answer Stephen's question, they were rare, but they did exist still.......

[drduncan]

Over on the D299 appreciation thread (I think) @wagonman posted a cleaned up version of the photo that had inspired @MikeOxon. I’ve copied it and here it is for the edification of all - with the sincerest thanks to Wagonman.

D

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, drduncan said:

a cleaned up version

 

Simply a scan of a better print, I think. No digital trickery.

 

Seriously thinking how best to put that bend into a straight etched brake lever...

Edited January 12 by Compound2632

[drduncan]

Chris,

 

Are there any differences in length, width, depth etc (and wheel size) between the Ex SDR conversions I cited above from the BG register and the non Ex SDR (presumably all ex GWR BG rather than say Cornwall Rly, or one of the BG South Wales lines) one in the SG register 29XXX series? 

 

Does 29382 have 3'1" or 4' wheels in the SG reg

ister?

 

Regards,

 

Duncan

On 29/12/2023 at 21:32, Chrisbr said:

Of the 498 I could read the condemned date in the 29xxx series, 2 didn't make it to 1880, 19 went in the 1880s, 397 went in the 1890s (albeit only 3 in 1892) and the remaining 80 in 1900's with 8 having a date of 1905 or later.

1905 - 29393 and 29530

1906 - 29392, 29472 and 29576

1907 - 29231 and 29400

1908 - 29380

Most if not all this series were Iron bodies and certainly all 8 having survived to 1905 were Iron bodied.

 

So to answer Stephen's question, they were rare, but they did exist still.......