Kato GEX sets and the future

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, Supaned said:

 

So the question is, based on the formations , does the St Moritz - Zermatt train just have a loco back onto it at Chur to head towards Disentis and thus not need a portion shunt , and then the corresponding Zermatt - St Moritz tags on the rear of a push-pull set so they just drive the P-P set onto the arrival from Disentis and again negate the need for a shunt of the through coaches?

in 2019 I was sat waiting for my train as the GEX arrived behind 620 at 15:14

 

and two minutes later 627 arrived on the Disentis end and buffered up before the shunter had even unhooked 620. 

I assume the same would happen unhitching it from a Alvra set? 

[Supaned]

17 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

1) yes. Despite all the 'modernisation' over the last 15 years, RhB cannot tear itself away from shunting things on and off the back of 'fixed rakes'! (much to our delight as modellers...). Interestingly, I did not see that on a brief visit to Reichenau Tamins and Felsberg in June 2022. As stated, in the last few years GEX workings have been separate trains hauled by the 4/4IIs (but hardly ever 623 'Glacier Express'...)

 

2) yes. Visp - Zermatt. MGB is the lifeline for freight to Zermatt (lorries can reach Zermatt but it is largely an environmental choice to stick with freight. On the ex-FO section freight ceased a good few years ago now . I've spent many fun-filled Zermatt ski-ing trips dashing down the slopes at the end of the day in order to phot the 'tea time' freight departure from Zermatt  

 thanks for the info. We shall see what we see then

[Gordonwis]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

in 2019 I was sat waiting for my train as the GEX arrived behind 620 at 15:14

 

and two minutes later 627 arrived on the Disentis end and buffered up before the shunter had even unhooked 620. 

I assume the same would happen unhitching it from a Alvra set? 

 

 

But what you saw was surely just a pure GEX turnaround, not involving any attaching to other trainsets? 

 

[Glorious NSE]

On 11/08/2022 at 18:46, Supaned said:

 

So the question is, based on the formations , does the St Moritz - Zermatt train just have a loco back onto it at Chur to head towards Disentis and thus not need a portion shunt , and then the corresponding Zermatt - St Moritz tags on the rear of a push-pull set so they just drive the P-P set onto the arrival from Disentis and again negate the need for a shunt of the through coaches?

This feels like it's got a bit messy...

There's 8 trains in total forming the GEX service at present, run by 6 coaching stock rakes (two sets only run a partial route and work out-and-back in a day, the other 4 run a single working from one end to the other each day and return the following day.)
https://www.glacierexpress.ch/en/travel-planning/timetables/

Both pairs of St Moritz-Zermatt and return trains (trains 902/3/4/5, 4 trains total) are standalone trains on all legs, so all 4 of those will either runround or get a new loco on the back at Chur, as per Paul's example above. 

I would bet there's a booked way to do each one, I note the Chur calling times vary a lot. but I would not want to bet on the exact same sequence happening every time, or even that it would work the same for two consecutive trains or the same train the following day - I can vouch for both methods being used in 2020 based on trains passing Reichenau based on a day there for example.

The Zermatt-Chur and return (Trains 900/907) are also standalone trains, and don't do the Albula leg anyway, so again, either a new loco or a runround of the one that brought it in during it's layover at Chur. 

The St-Moritz-Brig (901) is the one on the rear of the Albula working (IR1120) behind the loco heading towards Chur, so yes logically I would presume that one just has a loco dropped onto the back at Chur to continue it's journey. 

The Brig-St Moritz (906) seems to go on the rear of the Albula working (IR1165) behind the push pull set, given the Albula rakes sit at Chur for almost an hour and the GEX only has 34m allowed - I suspect what happens with that is that either the GEX arrives and then they shunt the push pull rake onto the back of it, or they pull the GEX out the Landquart end of the station and back it onto the far end? Either would get you the right configuration.

(If you wanted a guess it would be the latter - as the Albula rakes seem to like to always use the same platform at Chur to get a cross platform connection to the big railway.)

Edited August 15, 2022 by Glorious NSE

[PaulRhB]

On 12/08/2022 at 01:14, Gordonwis said:

 

 

But what you saw was surely just a pure GEX turnaround, not involving any attaching to other trainsets? 

 

Hence what I said below the pic 😉

 

On 11/08/2022 at 18:52, PaulRhB said:

 

I assume the same would happen unhitching it from a Alvra set? 

In that case it was a loco but equally it could be a Alvra set, the same move works. The reverse would be to timetable the GEX to arrive first then the Alvra set arrive behind and hitch on for the St Moritz bound journey. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by PaulRhB

[MikeB]

The loco workings show that the typical summer schedule uses four Ge 4/4II locos for the GEX  For tomorrow:

 

623 works 901 CH-DIS, 900 DIS-CH, 907 CH-DIS, 906 DIS-CH.  So this runs round the Zermatt - Chur return working at Chur and hauls the St Moritz - Brig trains between Disentis and Chur.  As described above, the coaches are attached to regular Chur -St Moritz trains for the Albula leg.

 

The two Zermatt / St Moritz trains change locos at Chur;

 

632 903 SMOR-CH, 905 CH-DIS, 904 DIS-CH

614 905 SMOR-CH, 902 CH-SMOR

611 903 CH-DIS. 902 DIS-CH, 904 CH-MOR

All three locos start and finish at Chur.  614 and 632 double head the 0509 Chur- Samedan mixed while 611 hauls 614 on 1172, the 2002 SMOR-CH passenger service.

Edited August 16, 2022 by MikeB

[MikeB]

Gordonwis wrote:

 

"yes. Visp - Zermatt. MGB is the lifeline for freight to Zermatt (lorries can reach Zermatt but it is largely an environmental choice to stick with freight. On the ex-FO section freight ceased a good few years ago now . I've spent many fun-filled Zermatt ski-ing trips dashing down the slopes at the end of the day in order to phot the 'tea time' freight departure from Zermatt  "

 

I noticed MGB shunter Tea 2/2 802 outside the goods shed at Zematt on a Sunday in June.  Does anybody know why there is so much hardware on front on the loco?

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by MikeB

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, MikeB said:

noticed MGB shunter Tea 2/2 802 outside the goods shed at Zematt on a Sunday in June.  Does anybody know why there is so much hardware on front on the loco?

Looks like an emergency auto coupler for the units so I assume it’s on standby as a ‘Thunderbird’ rescue loco.

[Glorious NSE]

14 hours ago, MikeB said:

The loco workings show that the typical summer schedule uses four Ge 4/4II locos for the GEX  For tomorrow:

 

623 works 901 CH-DIS, 900 DIS-CH, 907 CH-DIS, 906 DIS-CH.  So this runs round the Zermatt - Chur return working at Chur and hauls the St Moritz - Brig trains between Disentis and Chur.  As described above, the coaches are attached to regular Chur -St Moritz trains for the Albula leg.

 

The two Zermatt / St Moritz trains change locos at Chur;

 

632 903 SMOR-CH, 905 CH-DIS, 904 DIS-CH

614 905 SMOR-CH, 902 CH-SMOR

611 903 CH-DIS. 902 DIS-CH, 904 CH-MOR

All three locos start and finish at Chur.  614 and 632 double head the 0509 Chur- Samedan freight while 611 hauls 614 on 1172, the 2002 SMOR-CH passenger service.

Yep, that's what i'd expect from the plan:

My observations from 2020 (note 900/901/906/907 were not running due to Covid at this time) are:

#622 brought train 903 into Chur (and I hope somebody on this was a track basher as that's a fun bit of routing!) 😉

#633 took over on 903

#642(!) brought 905 to Chur

 

#622 took over 905

So far the same as the plan above....

#633 came back with train 902 as per the plan above...

 

But rather than stepping back it must have run round, as 633 was still the loco on 902 when it passed us at Thusis...

And as we saw 622 at Preda on 904, whilst we didn't see it on the Disentis leg by process of elimination that one must also have run round and stayed with the train at Chur rather than being swapped.

I suspect the diagramming for the GEX loco's will have been the same (barring the morning/evening freight/extra passenger use as that was GE6/6ii territory in 2020) but with that diagram if they get a loco failure, even if they need to free up a loco to cover for a failure elsewhere on the system they can magic up a spare loco just by running round the train at Chur rather than stepping back loco's as per the diagram.

Shortest Chur call seems to be 11 minutes (most are a fair bit longer) - so they have the time.

[MikeB]

2 hours ago, Glorious NSE said:

Yep, that's what i'd expect from the plan:

My observations from 2020 (note 900/901/906/907 were not running due to Covid at this time) are:

#622 brought train 903 into Chur (and I hope somebody on this was a track basher as that's a fun bit of routing!) 😉

#633 took over on 903

#642(!) brought 905 to Chur

 

#622 took over 905

So far the same as the plan above....

#633 came back with train 902 as per the plan above...

 

But rather than stepping back it must have run round, as 633 was still the loco on 902 when it passed us at Thusis...

And as we saw 622 at Preda on 904, whilst we didn't see it on the Disentis leg by process of elimination that one must also have run round and stayed with the train at Chur rather than being swapped.

I suspect the diagramming for the GEX loco's will have been the same (barring the morning/evening freight/extra passenger use as that was GE6/6ii territory in 2020) but with that diagram if they get a loco failure, even if they need to free up a loco to cover for a failure elsewhere on the system they can magic up a spare loco just by running round the train at Chur rather than stepping back loco's as per the diagram.

Shortest Chur call seems to be 11 minutes (most are a fair bit longer) - so they have the time.

 

 

I've saved the default loco workings from recent years and in  summer 2020 your observations fit with what was scheduled, with a deviation:

1) 903 SMOR-CH, 905 CH-DIS, 904 DIS-CH, worked by 622 in your photos

2) 903 CH-DIS. 902 DIS-SMOR (so run round at Chur) worked by 633

3) 905 SMOR-CH, 904 CH-SMOR; since 642 was used on the first working as a deviation from the scheduled plan, presumably 622 ran round train 904 at Chur to cover for the missing Ge 4/4 II

 

The workings in 2021 were the same as in 2020.  The end of scheduled DIS-SMOR loco workings happened this year.

[Gordonwis]

As I had hoped, my bulk 'spares'  purchase of packs of pairs of  the new Kato wagon bogies newly created for the new container well wagons has proved an astute plan.

 

They are a tolerable fit (better than any of the Kato coach bogies) onto one of the artisan 3D products I have collected from designers on Shapeways, namely the departmental stone side tipper 

[Gordonwis]

One of the RhB MOdellbahn tanktainers is a reasonable fit on the new Kato well wagon 

[Gordonwis]

A new record number of freight wagons (and that wasn't all the ones in the fleet) on a test circuit at my MR club on wednesday:

 

21 wagons - a mixture of kitbash/scratchbuilt, Kato RTR, Shapeways 3D kit, RhB Modellbahn 3D kit and RhBM 3D RTR

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Gordonwis
Video added

[Gordonwis]

Video of 21 wagon freight train added

[Keith Addenbrooke]

25 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

Video of 21 wagon freight train added

The Ge 4/4’’’ gives the impression it’s hardly troubled by the length of the train - and could pull quite a bit more?

 

(Some realistic background sound effects too, presumably not planned).  Thanks for sharing this, Keith.

[Gordonwis]

54 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The Ge 4/4’’’ gives the impression it’s hardly troubled by the length of the train - and could pull quite a bit more?

 

(Some realistic background sound effects too, presumably not planned).  Thanks for sharing this, Keith.

 

My club colleagues (all of whom are quintessential British O Gauge fans and not much interested in European railways) end of club night packing up in the background ...

[Gordonwis]

56 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The Ge 4/4’’’ gives the impression it’s hardly troubled by the length of the train - and could pull quite a bit more?

 

(Some realistic background sound effects too, presumably not planned).  Thanks for sharing this, Keith.

 

definitely. by the way the circuit was an oval laid with Kato Unitrack rad 249 curves

 

I also think 21 wagons might be more than the limit on RhB. I think the most wagons I have seen on one 'trunk route' freight (ie the Samedan - Albula- Chur - Landquart 5xxx series trains) is 17

 

  

[Jim Easterbrook]

On 09/08/2022 at 19:25, PaulRhB said:

Fitting 1017’s to the new Kato wagons

 

I've decided to go over to Dapol NEM for my RhB stuff.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

I'm designing a 3D printed NEM coupler that I hope will be compatible with Kato's close coupler. This should give me more options.

[PaulRhB]

59 minutes ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

 

I've decided to go over to Dapol NEM for my RhB stuff.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

I'm designing a 3D printed NEM coupler that I hope will be compatible with Kato's close coupler. This should give me more options.

A NEM box for the Kato wagons or to fit the coach bogies would be good too 😉

[Jim Easterbrook]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

A NEM box for the Kato wagons or to fit the coach bogies would be good too 😉

 

I'm a complete beginner at 3D design - let me crawl before I attempt a run!

 

Given the requirement to swing side to side by quite a large angle and the limited space in an unmodified wagon or bogie I'm not sure it would be possible. Cutting bits off and gluing on a Dapol sleeve is easier.

[Jim Easterbrook]

16 hours ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

Cutting bits off and gluing on a Dapol sleeve is easier.

 

It really is easier. First cut off the Kato coupler.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Second, glue a back (Dapol shim) onto a Dapol sleeve.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Third, glue the modified sleeve to the bogie.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Fourth, fit a short Dapol coupling and reattach to the wagon.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

PS I'm using plumbers' solvent weld to glue the bits together. It works on both Dapol and Kato plastic, but it needs to be used sparingly. Don't get it anywhere near the keyhole slot on the Dapol sleeve as it'll reshape it!

Edited September 15, 2022 by Jim Easterbrook
Typo

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

 

It really is easier. First cut off the Kato coupler.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Second, glue a back (Dapol shim) onto a Dapol sleeve.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Third, glue the modified sleeve to the bogie.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

Fourth, fit a short Dapol coupling and reattach to the wagon.

Fitting Dapol NEM couplers to Kato RhB Sb-t wagons by Jim Easterbrook, on Flickr

 

PS I'm using plumbers' solvent weld to glue the bits together. It works on both Dapol and Kato plastic, but it needs to be used sparingly. Don't get it anywhere near the keyhole slot on the Dapol sleeve as it'll reshape it!

 Neat job, I’ve got piles of the Microtrains ones so I’ll keep using them but it proves how easy it would be for Kato to make these more flexible ;) 

[Jim Easterbrook]

Micro-Trains or Dapol, you need an uncoupling magnet. Unfortunately the Lb-v wagons have a steel weight in the chassis and the Sb-t wagons have steel screws to attach the bogies. Both are attracted by uncoupling magnets.

[PaulRhB]

44 minutes ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

Micro-Trains or Dapol, you need an uncoupling magnet. Unfortunately the Lb-v wagons have a steel weight in the chassis and the Sb-t wagons have steel screws to attach the bogies. Both are attracted by uncoupling magnets.

Thanks Jim, useful info but not a major problem if known about early. 
 

I made these cutouts on my station 

and covered them with very thin plastic, like paper, before laying the track. 
When I fit the magnets they will be on drop flaps and the size and closeness of magnet can be adjusted to work. We came across this in HOm with steel wheels and a bit of experimenting with size and spacing got a reliable solution. 

[Jim Easterbrook]

That's an extra complexity I was hoping to avoid.