The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[47137]

The extension of the deadline sounds like bad news to me. It is as though the production run has been decided but not, as yet, fulfilled by orders. New buyers who are keen for a model can place new orders and choose to pay the full amount. The suppliers are free to say, "we will honour paid-up orders as our top priority, and we will refund the £50 deposit paid on orders we cannot fulfil". I don't like this at all.

 

- Richard.

[PaulRhB]

If people want to speculate by buying several then that's their risk, it's not like they were eating up a set number as the run was to be based on orders by the deadline. Also speculators orders can be the thing that make the run viable whether you like it or not. There's been time to decide and save, if you don't have the money in time then sorry you don't necessarily get it. I picked up the first ornate lined ltd edition SECR C class three weeks ago at a show for the same price as the initial release while a major retailer has it for wish listing on their secondhand site for £300.

There's lots of things I'd love to buy I don't have the money for at the time

[Vistisen]

The extension of the deadline sounds like bad news to me. It is as though the production run has been decided but not, as yet, fulfilled by orders. New buyers who are keen for a model can place new orders and choose to pay the full amount. The suppliers are free to say, "we will honour paid-up orders as our top priority, and we will refund the £50 deposit paid on orders we cannot fulfil". I don't like this at all.

 

- Richard.

think you might be seeing ghosts where none exist. Rapido seems to have a lot of very satisfied customers, and there has been no one saying anything negative about their business practices and you can't say that about many companies here, But then on RMweb it does seem to be normal to expect the worst and then complain that it did not happen to the degree that one expected. I fully expect to get a fantastic model from Rapido, and with a bit of luck I won't have to choose which half of my layout to run it on as it WILL go round the corner with limited clearance. If not I'll just let it sit there and listen to the fantastic start up sounds until SWIMBO hides my PowerCab.

[jjb1970]

I'm a bit disappointed by the extension to the deadline. Not because I see this as some sort of investment or because I want to lock people out. I'd happily accept them making as many as they wanted and have no intention of selling the unit I ordered to try and make a bit out of it. My disappointment is rather that if the deadline doesn't mean anything then why have a deadline? Locomotion were the ones who made a big thing of the count down timer and telling customers we had to order before the deadline etc, if that deadline wasn't set in stone then why bother with all the marketing guff which now seems a bit hollow? They were the ones that made a big deal of order by midnight on 30th April and then come 1st May it appears that the deadline never happened. Which strikes me as rather disingenuous at best. Now like I say, I have no great love of pre-orders or deadlines and would rather they just put the things on sale in the normal way however the message from this is that in future I'll not take Locomotion pre-order deadlines seriously.

[47137]

It wasn't really a deadline at all! I suspect, the NRM are wanting to use unfulfilled preorders to build up their own retail stock.

[Mr_Tilt]

I am “bumping” a question I asked earlier in the thread.

I have ordered some additional trailer cars so that I can run a “might have been” longer service train. I have read somewhere in this thread that of the two trailer cars in the 4 car APT-E, one is full of instrumentation, and the other has only got seats for about half of its length. My question was, will the additional trailers have full seating as would be appropriate for a service train, and if not, can further seating units be purchased separately for all trailers so that a fully seated train can be made up?

 

 

That's correct, TC2 was the 'mobile laboratory' and train control centre and much of it is filled with an instrumentation rack and other control panels. TC1 has 24 seats in a fully air conditioned and sound deadened VIP area that's half the length of the coach, the other half being a storage and workshop area.

 

As I understand it the extra coaches will be TC1s, with half being seats and half storage area, but perhaps we should wait for official confirmation from Jason or Bill. 

 

In practical terms it would have been difficult to have seats in the whole of TC1 as there's a socking great tilt pack sticking up from the floor on one side and fitting seats around it would gave been unpopular at best! I won't be at all surprised if some enterprising 3rd party moulder  doesn't produce an extra half coach's worth of seats to replace the non-seat end, relying in the idea that we may have fitted the APT-P Mk 5 under-floor Tilt Packs to an imaginary TC3 etc. 

 

Here's the interior of the first mould E-Train TC2 that we had at Warley showing the instrumentation rack and the tilt pack, ringed in red. The tilt pack was in the same position in both Trailer Cars.

 

[luke_stevens]

 

In practical terms it would have been difficult to have seats in the whole of TC1 as there's a socking great tilt pack sticking up from the floor on one side and fitting seats around it would gave been unpopular at best!

 

Put a half luggage rack on the top of it and a full luggage rack on the other side (i.e. Mk4's, refurb Mk3's). Shouldn't be difficult to hide it

 

Luke

[Mr_Tilt]

Put a half luggage rack on the top of it and a full luggage rack on the other side (i.e. Mk4's, refurb Mk3's). Shouldn't be difficult to hide it

 

Luke

 

It might be more difficult to hide the noise, the Mk 2  packs weren't exactly quiet and they had the irritating habit of leaking oil on the odd occasion.

 

Well, maybe more than just the 'odd occasion'. 

[Vistisen]

It might be more difficult to hide the noise, the Mk 2  packs weren't exactly quiet and they had the irritating habit of leaking oil on the odd occasion.

 

Well, maybe more than just the 'odd occasion'. 

Ok if we have the cheese sandwich, we must have the pool of oil as well

[Mr_Tilt]

Ok if we have the cheese sandwich, we must have the pool of oil as well

 

That's down to the user, '3-in-1' works pretty well in 1.76 scale for Esso NUTO 45. 

[Gerald Henriksen]

The extension of the deadline sounds like bad news to me. It is as though the production run has been decided but not, as yet, fulfilled by orders. New buyers who are keen for a model can place new orders and choose to pay the full amount. The suppliers are free to say, "we will honour paid-up orders as our top priority, and we will refund the £50 deposit paid on orders we cannot fulfil". I don't like this at all.

 

 

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

 

Given that there is only one seller of the APT-E (Locomotion), it is really quite simple.  At whatever deadline Rapido and Locomotion have setttled on Locomotion will tell Rapido that they need x of each catalog number, at which point Rapido will go off and produce x of each item (plus a small number of extras for warranty issues).

 

If you are trying to imply that Locomotion is going to destroy they reputation they have built up by playing games with order fulfillment, then I suggest you take it up with Locomotion because baseless speculation on this forum is inappropriate.

[47137]

Hi all

 

Just a quick reminder that the order book for the APT-E and Trailing cars closes on Thursday. Visit our website www.locomotionmodels.com/ to see our brilliant countdown clock and get your order placed in time!

Perhaps Locomotion Models will post an update here.

- Richard.

[Steve-e]

Maybe it's just down to it been a bank holiday and their website people aren't back in until Tuesday.

[jjb1970]

Bank holidays are known months and years in advance and if they thought that was an issue it would have been simple enough to set the deadline for May 5th. They could alternatively have said that they may close the order book on April 30th subject to orders received hence they could not guarantee taking orders after April 30th. That would make clear that the deadline as such was subject to other variables and not fixed.

I think this is probably a minor issue of no consequence to most but for me, if a company makes such an issue of a deadline including a constant banner headline here telling people to order before it is too late and marketing gimmicks like setting up an on-line count down then that deadline should mean something. If the deadline is extended then they could at least put a statement on their web site to say why.

I'll be upfront, I do not like paying in advance for any model and managing cash flow for a commercial project. I'm not a fan of pre-orders in general but am OK with the idea of zero payment pre-orders. If a supplier takes payment on the basis that you must pre-order and pay by a deadline then I get a bad taste when they then just ignore that deadline as it feels like money has been taken under false pretences.

[Fenman]

... If a supplier takes payment on the basis that you must pre-order and pay by a deadline then I get a bad taste when they then just ignore that deadline as it feels like money has been taken under false pretences.

 

Writing as someone who sells things in a different field, our pre-order deadlines usually have some flex built in. This is because in the day or two after the deadline, there will be a stream of emails where people have tried to purchase at the last minute but a system problem, or an issue with their bank (or our own), or some other cock-up, means that in fairness we need to be able to respond to that person.

 

To me, what Locomotion are doing is no different than railways building-in some additional time to their timetables to guarantee "on time" arrival: it is not about "false pretences" or some other criminal-sounding conspiracy. It is about trying to be responsive to the failings and fallibilities of humans, and to provide a good and reliable service.

 

Paul 

[Wolf27]

 

If you are trying to imply that Locomotion is going to destroy they reputation they have built up by playing games with order fulfillment, then I suggest you take it up with Locomotion because baseless speculation on this forum is inappropriate.

Unfortunately it's seems to be what this forum has become very good at.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[hymekfan]

Ah the old chestnut of production exclusivity is a delicious one is it not ?  I am sure all of us have our opinions on the matter (some stronger than others), but as a commercial company it is really up to Rapido/Locomotion to decide whether to produce  the deadline quantity at  'x' profit or to try to maximise the profit by producing more units for sale later. I personally would prefer an exclusive product but its totally out of my hands.

 

But remember the good old innocent mid 1960s when Triang-Hornby over produced the battle space models only to be stuck with shelf loads of them in their warehouse until Hattons took them at rock bottom prices. Yes I know 50 years ago is a lifetime but its just a thought......

[Colin_McLeod]

May I suggest to those getting upset that you direct your energies into something worthwhile rather than getting upset over minor non issues that don't matter. I don't think it a few orders accepted after 30 April matters a damm nor do I recall Rapido or Locomotion ever saying that the APT-E was a "limited edition"

Edited May 3, 2015 by Colin_McLeod

[hymekfan]

Good point, well made... but this a forum after all where people have their opinions, their rants and their genuine questions about the prototype.  If we did direct all our energies into something else ,this thread would be about 5 pages long instead of 42+ with all its talk of cheese sandwiches , tilt angles and such.  I for one don't give a stuff how many are made , as long as it is made , and to the high standard that we have seen so far.

[shreds]

I'm a bit disappointed by the extension to the deadline. Not because I see this as some sort of investment or because I want to lock people out. I'd happily accept them making as many as they wanted and have no intention of selling the unit I ordered to try and make a bit out of it. My disappointment is rather that if the deadline doesn't mean anything then why have a deadline? Locomotion were the ones who made a big thing of the count down timer and telling customers we had to order before the deadline etc, if that deadline wasn't set in stone then why bother with all the marketing guff which now seems a bit hollow? They were the ones that made a big deal of order by midnight on 30th April and then come 1st May it appears that the deadline never happened. Which strikes me as rather disingenuous at best. Now like I say, I have no great love of pre-orders or deadlines and would rather they just put the things on sale in the normal way however the message from this is that in future I'll not take Locomotion pre-order deadlines seriously.

 

 

 

I entirely agree with jjb1970, and yes it did say somewhere that you had until 30th April to order and there would be unlikely to be a further production run, so jib1970 is 100% correct.

 

I ordered two sets last year soon after first announcement and have topped that with coaches since. Not that I ever intend selling any, it is such an iconic piece of railway history that I grew up with so one is for my display cabinet the other for the layout.

 

I travelled especially to York Exhibition to see the preproduction sample and was not disappointed.

 

So who is at fault? I would guess that Locomotion have underwritten say 500/750/1000 sets and have failed to attain that in pre orders. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

 

These pre orders or effective crowd funding rely on trust.

 

 

 

 

.......The trust here has been broken. I am now very very disappointed that their word cannot be adhered to. In fact it is effectively breach of contract. If I didn't want the APT-E model so much I would now commence refund procedures.

 

They will not get any future orders from me and I hope others will note that Locomotion/Rapido cannot be trusted.

[Guest]

Opinion on this thread seems to be heading in two very different directions. Talk of "trust" and "disappointment" etc. I do understand where you're coming from but as has been pointed out, the destination you'll arrive at is the same whichever road you take... a shiny new RTR APT-E in your hands, and just a very short time ago, who would have thought that?

[Andy Y]

 

 I would guess that Locomotion have underwritten say 500/750/1000 sets and have failed to attain that in pre orders. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

 

 

I can say with confidence that you are incorrect with that guess.

 

I think you may be getting unnecessarily over-excited. Rapido function in a certain way and that is to determine an absolute production quantity based on pre-orders and carry no inventory. In this case however Rapido are producing for a commissioning client in the form of Locomotion. The orders placed up to the deadline then give Locomotion the necessary information to determine the quantity which will be manufactured. They could choose to have more manufactured to cover any replacements necessary (and I'd support them in actually have a small quantity on a shelf or on the website at release date if it meant suppressing inflated opportunistic resales on ebay at the point of release) or drastically they could choose, if they wished,  to manufacture less if they chose to factor that some buyers who've placed a deposit may not be able to pay the balance.

 

Whatever happens I don't think there's sufficient reason to jump to emotive assumptions and start waving legal phrases around.

[modelpara]

I entirely agree with jjb1970, and yes it did say somewhere that you had until 30th April to order and there would be unlikely to be a further production run, so jib1970 is 100% correct.

 

I ordered two sets last year soon after first announcement and have topped that with coaches since. Not that I ever intend selling any, it is such an iconic piece of railway history that I grew up with so one is for my display cabinet the other for the layout.

 

I travelled especially to York Exhibition to see the preproduction sample and was not disappointed.

 

So who is at fault? I would guess that Locomotion have underwritten say 500/750/1000 sets and have failed to attain that in pre orders. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

 

These pre orders or effective crowd funding rely on trust.

 

 

 

 

.......The trust here has been broken. I am now very very disappointed that their word cannot be adhered to. In fact it is effectively breach of contract. If I didn't want the APT-E model so much I would now commence refund procedures.

 

They will not get any future orders from me and I hope others will note that Locomotion/Rapido cannot be trusted.

Hold your horses a minute, no one knows yet if the deadline has been extended, website gremlins have ment it didn't stop or any other reason it's still showing as a valid link.

 

I for one certainly don't feel I don't trust locomotion/ Rapido or that they have breeched a contract as there certainly ould be nothing in a contract to say that no further orders would be taken after x date.

 

It's entirely possible it's a soft deadline to take into account what someone said above about bank, pc, Internet gremlins etc and they will be closing it Tuesday when their IT guys remember that they need to change it (could also be a case of the IT guys being behind in their workload and forgetting to upload the new "No further orders taken" pages on the 1st!

[shreds]

The only people who have created this situation it would seem are Locomotion. There is no jumping to assumptions. The facts are clear for all to see.

 

And as an admin you should know that as this is a forum everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I am not allowed to express what is a fair and reasonable view from those who shelled out the money then perhaps you need to go and read a legal textbook on contract law.

 

Locomotion have managed to update their website but have been incredibly quiet here when comment is now needed.

Edited May 3, 2015 by shreds

[Andy Y]

It's a bank holiday weekend.

 

And yes; you have jumped to assumptions hence my quoting part of your post. Comments have been based on supposition rather than 'facts'. You're entitled to an opinion but do not try to dress it up to look like a pseudo fact e.g " In fact it is effectively breach of contract.". If you have a problem speak to Locomotion but please don't post inaccurate statements.