Modular Control - DCC Setup and Walkabouts

[GRC]

Looking for some guidance now on how the wiring of the modules should be set up. From reading the standards I think its been agreed that the DCC bus will be connected between modules with Banana plugs.

 

What I didn't find was a lot of information on how the DCC system/s will be set up and configured.

 

As people will be moving between modules and taking there controller with them they will need to plug into bus extension sockets around the layout or everything is wireless?

 

Should we have a standard for wired connections onto the bus and should this be aligned with say Xpressnet standards? Would it be similar to the Lenz port extender LA152

 

If we decide on Wireless should we select a standard?

 

Are we going to plan around power districts so that a short on one module doesn't impact all the other modules?

 

Should we/Could we publish a standard and list compatible components (Handhelds, Port extenders etc) so that people have some idea of expectations, I suspect this could be more challenging than the initial design standards as the costs are higher but think getting this out for discussion early would help to clarify for the module builders

 

Thanks Gavin...

[Glorious NSE]

What I didn't find was a lot of information on how the DCC system/s will be set up and configured.

 

<Back History> When we went down this road with the initial HO spec, we deliberately left this open - different local groups will want to use differing systems, very few will want to invest a lot (it's circa £70+ to buy a Lenz handset for example!) in equipment they can only use on the module when this is something new and they are unsure of it - and it just seemed much easier to us to let the standard evolve naturally. If you define one specific system from the start then you risk everyone who uses a different one dismissing it out of hand. What eventually evolved was an unofficial standard of using the LA152s as they are usable with either DCC system in use by groups doing this so far (Lenz or NCE, Digitrax is used by a few individuals but bus is not compatible) - the British approach here may be different. I'm less aware of what defacto standard DCC systems British outline modellers favour.

 

As people will be moving between modules and taking there controller with them they will need to plug into bus extension sockets around the layout or everything is wireless?

 

 

Either, or a mix of the two, is possible.

 

Again, it may be that things are done differently between different groups and different setups. Wifi throttles were in their infancy when we started - interestingly an equivalent group in Australia who has started since decided to go straight to wifi throttles - folk may want to debate whether that's workable here, but it would very quickly and very cheaply answer all questions about what to do with a throttle bus!

 

Should we have a standard for wired connections onto the bus and should this be aligned with say Xpressnet standards? Would it be similar to the Lenz port extender LA152

I would suggest not hardwiring a throttle bus - if folk do go down the route of LA152s then the panels can be connected quickly on the day with the wires provided. Hardwiring the bus through the boards adds un-needed connections and increases the risk of somebody mis-wiring the bus.

 

If we decide on Wireless should we select a standard?

 

Not sure what you mean here?

 

 

Are we going to plan around power districts so that a short on one module doesn't impact all the other modules?

 

The existing throttle bus allows for power districts to be put in whereaver you like, simply don't connect jumpers between your two districts, then feed a booster to each.

[Kenton]

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As people will be moving between modules and taking there controller with them they will need to plug into bus extension sockets around the layout or everything is wireless?

 

I think we should not assume that. I am expecting several modules, particularly plain ones, to have no facility for plug in hand held throttles of any description. Their connectivity is satisfied by the bus outlets and jumper leads alone.

 

The more complex active modules - those that could be equally described as layouts in their own right, may or may not have sockets for hand-held units. Remember these could be DC modules/layouts and we cannot expect their owners to go to the considerable expense of any socket for the throttles. Anyway we should not be imposing Lenz or any other manufacturer in particular. There is simply going to be a range of throttles and sockets.

 

There is also the very big problem of what socket to use. Both of my DCC systems are incompatible in terms of throttle plug/socket and also incompatible with a Digitrax "universal" panel socket that I mistakenly purchased thinking it was "universal"

 

I know nothing about wireless (like I suspect many) and seek to learn from others.

[cromptonnut]

I've just purchased a 6 metre RJ12 to RJ12 DCC lead from Ebay for about a fiver which hopefully will come in handy at some point - although I have several modules in mind I don't expect to have walkabout plugin holes everywhere but would expect people to wander a few feet anyway - and why not just stop at a station, unplug and walk to the next station whilst waiting for the incoming train to arrive, then drive your train "from" where it is to where you are?  Let's face it, as long as the route is set and you get the go-ahead from the stationmaster at the previous module, you can drive your train almost blindly until you get to the next stop as it's only stopping it in the right place in front of you that really matters.

[Suzie]

Technology has moved on and the amount of effort involved with installing a wired cab bus (both when building modules and when setting up on the day) is way out of proportion to it's benefit when so many people have access to something that can be used as a wireless throttle (android or i-thing) and when a big modular setup really lends itself to being untethered.

[cromptonnut]

The downside of wireless, of course, is that someone has to have suitable equipment, and/or be willing to lend their phone/handset/tablet/whatever to a virtual stranger to walk off with...

[Suzie]

If I was defining the standard I would insist that every module with pointwork included a circuit breaker (adds only £30 to the module cost) to save having to worry too much about power districts, but since modules will not have their own breakers, you will have to plan for power districts at the planning stage based on what equipment (boosters and circuit breakers) are available to you.

[Glorious NSE]

The upside of wireless though would be that folk either already own a potential throttle, or can pick one up very affordably...

[Suzie]

The downside of wireless, of course, is that someone has to have suitable equipment, and/or be willing to lend their phone/handset/tablet/whatever to a virtual stranger to walk off with...

 

 

My thought is that most virtual strangers will have their own phone/tablet/whatever anyway so that regardless of which control system is in use they will have their own suitable equipment.

[cromptonnut]

I suppose it still requires someone to have a working wireless setup to bring along - I have a USB interface and have operated my layout from my laptop before, but I've never managed to quite get the wireless part of it working. 

 

I guess it would be good to "make a decision" about this and perhaps get something into a standard before people start building  - as if it's left "to choice" then we could find half of the modules expecting wired connections and 20ft gaps between "plug in spots" - and no way of joining them.

 

It's never been an issue to me so I have no real opinion either way but I would guess it would be good to get the input of those more experienced on whether wireless is a practical option.

[Suzie]

If you are operating with Lenz, wireless setup can be as simple as just plugging the Lenz EtherNet interface into the Expressnet on the command station and a wireless router. Use a dual band router that does 802.11N and there should be no bandwidth issues.

[Kenton]

 

wireless setup can be as simple as just plugging the Lenz EtherNet interface into the Expressnet on the command station

But even that alone supposes one of the module participants comes with a Lenz command station and the bits. I certainly do not think it should be a standard - but whoever is organising the group setup does need to ensure at least one participant has something (not necessarily Lenz) that can act as the base command. - I also still presumes all operators have something compatible as a wireless throttle. Again not something DC folk (or wired DCC folk) are going to be familiar with. I certainly do not believe that we should try to exclude wired in controllers - though wireless might be the ultimate and eventually favoured throttle giving "drivers" the best experience.

 

We need to keep reminding ourselves, and those already comfortable with Modular setups, that the British modeller is more familiar with layouts and operation within their own little zone. The concept of walking around a big room following one loco through varied scenery is as alien as walking on the moon. Wireless, what is the use of that while I sit on my chair in front of my control panel - a waste of money I could better spend on ....

[cromptonnut]

I can certainly see the logic of "wireless control" but I really don't feel like I want to spend £124 on the Ethernet device for my Lenz system especially when I have no use whatsoever for it at home.  Like Kenton says, my layout is about 14ft and there's a 6ft curly cable on my Lenz handset, with an adaptor plate roughly in the middle of the layout (by design) so I can reach both ends of the layout no problem.

 

Obviously when you're looking at perhaps a 40ft layout - things are different in a way that most of us are not (yet) used to.

[PaulRhB]

I'm investigating expanding my Z21 to cover this as an option for any meet I attend. All I need is to sort out some details on compatibility of some components. Manufacturer doesn't matter but those that are compatible with express net are an advantage. I can add the Lenz panels to mine though I use wireless and currently have five wireless devices that I use. Covering them under the meet insurance would be enough confidence for me to lend some out, (though not the phone! ) So mine will be compatible with Lenz handsets and LA152's but I'm not intending buying 10 panels plus leads maybe a couple to start things off.

 

Wireless is certainly cheaper than handsets of £90+ and all the leads and panels plus the ability to download an app and play with it before the meeting to set things up is an advantage as we found at Armitage. You can pick up new tablets for around £100 that work fine and you can use for other things too.

[Kenton]

 

You can pick up new tablets for around £100 that work fine and you can use for other things too.

Sure, but that is still way more than many will spend on their module and it still doesn't cover the cost (+complication) (+redundancy) of having to buy the wireless control station - I have just looked up a wireless throttle for my Prodigy and for the handset + receiver it comes in at nearly £300. For something that would only be used at meetings that is an extravagance even I can't afford.

[Suzie]

I just used the Lenz as an example of a phone based wireless system that is so simple that the cat could set it up.

 

DC people are far more likely to have an android or i-thing they can bring along than a wired throttle for the chosen system.

 

Any system likely to be used for a meet from Digitrax/Lenz/NCE/Roco/MRC/ESU/Sprog will need to have a computer interface and can be connected to a Raspberry Pi/Laptop/PC as available to expose an IP connection to a router if the interface is USB. Lenz and ESU just make things easier by having direct Ethernet interfaces that cut out the middle man.

 

Any 00MOD (or whatever it will be called) meet that is reliant on wired throttles is going to struggle to find enough of the required type - DC people will not have any throttles at all, many people already use wireless on a phone anyway and will not have a wired throttle and unlike with American modelling there is no historical preference for Lenz and Digitrax. It should not be the responsibility of the person providing the command station to have to provide all the required throttles as well, and practically the only way to expect people to have something themselves that is suitable is to go wireless.

 

Looking at the cost aspect, collectively divvying up for a Lenz EtherNet interface will cost less than buying the wiring and connectivity to wire up all the modules for ExpressNet. Even if someone was to buy a few secondhand Android phones from Ebay to use as throttles I suspect going wireless will be cheaper than going wired. We are past the point when wired throttles is an outdated technology for large layouts, it still makes sense to wire up small layouts of course but that is not what we are considering.

 

Kenton's prodigy example is a good one, the MRC USB interface, a Raspberry Pi computer and a secondhand Android phone or tablet will cost way less than a MRC dedicated wireless throttle system, and if he does not want wireless at home all he will need is the Android phone. Bearing in mind that new Android tablets can be had for £50 we are not talking about expensive equipment even if it is only used for meets.

[cromptonnut]

new Android tablets can be had for £50 we are not talking about expensive equipment even if it is only used for meets.

 

I suppose that it's all to do with "level of commitment to the modular cause", we're going to find almost certainly that for the first year or so there will only be small meets with people borrowing equipment from each other and not wanting to commit themselves to spending large amounts of cash on anything until the concept is proven.

 

We know that modular systems can work - there are other standards around the world that have been going for years and can come up with some massive layouts - but it's new to most of us in the UK  and it's just a matter of time before it takes off and people feel that they can invest in the sort of equipment that is required to run modules at meetups.  Of course, those of us already with DCC setups can bring ours along to "run everything" (all my transformers etc are permanently wired into a box with a Molek cable to the layout and a faceplate that I can plug my controller in to as well as the cable from the control box).

 

My first module that I'm working on - the "river bridge" - will be my "master module" that everything plugs in to, so if I am providing equipment I have everything set up ... and if not then no problem, the Molek connectors are irrelevant and board power comes in and out via the banana plugs (rather than out both ways) and the faceplate can be used to plug in a controller in the hope that there is another RJ12 socket on the DCC bus within 18ft to go with the large cable that arrived from Ebay last week.

[PaulRhB]

 Sure, but that is still way more than many will spend on their module and it still doesn't cover the cost (+complication) (+redundancy) of having to buy the wireless control station - I have just looked up a wireless throttle for my Prodigy and for the handset + receiver it comes in at nearly £300. For something that would only be used at meetings that is an extravagance even I can't afford.

I wasn't suggesting buying one specially Kenton but it might tip the balance for someone considering various e-readers to upgrade to a wifi tablet if they are considering dcc on their home layout and doing a module

The reason I chose the Z21 was the cheap wireless options using wifi iPods and cheap tablets or the even cheaper reconditioned iPhones compared to the wireless controllers by esu, Zimo and Massoth all over £200. Digitrax seems the cheapest at £90 but that's specific to their system. I'm even wondering if the various stylus for iPads and phones could be converted to make a physical slider, even connected to a rotary dial to make a non touch screen adaptor to hold an iPhone / pod?

[Steve-e]

Theres a lot of talk of using phones / pads but what App/software would we need to download to be compatible?

 

I have a SAMSUNG S3 with Android 4.3

 

Many thanks

Steve

[GRC]

There appears to be a couple of WiFI throttles available that are compatible with a range of controllers and the JMRI Software and Apple/Android devices

 

http://www.withrottle.com/WiThrottle/Home.html

 

http://enginedriver.rrclubs.org/

 

I assume once the groups start to plan "Regional" meets they will be able to work out what they have available from the members and can plan accordingly. I tend to agree with the posts above, Many people will have a phone or can get a cheap one they can use as a handset throttle and this can be communicated to everyone before a meet to help everyone get the right software.

 

Is it clear in the standards how points are too be switched? I assume that anything is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with or use the main power bus feed? I think I'll use Cobalts with both DCC and Manual switching connected from my own controller and have a DPDT switch to switch the "module to local power or shared power dependent on whats needed.

[Kenton]

 

Is it clear in the standards how points are too be switched?

Yes a separate bus if DCC or any alternative method from manual through any spectrum of point motors - also applies to all other ancillary electrics. Local/nearby control otherwise it could get very complicated.

[PaulRhB]

Theres a lot of talk of using phones / pads but what App/software would we need to download to be compatible?

 

I have a SAMSUNG S3 with Android 4.3

 

Many thanks

Steve

Depends on the system used Z21 has its own app, we used Withrottle at the freemo meet. I've got both on my phones now, both simple to use though Z21 takes a couple of minutes more to set up as it has a totally customisable interface with symbols for all sounds if you need them. Still simple but more options that's all.

[PaulRhB]

Points can be manual, DC or dcc, whatever just have a note on the board to explain how if you don't have a control panel

[PaulRhB]

Note: the Z21 only allows for 10 wireless throttles and I suspect other solutions have similar limits. Mind, all those phones/tablets need WiFi coverage and a single AP may not be enough for the entire venue. WiFi is also eating in to the energy capacity of the device, so at one point they need re-charging.

Yep but 10 trains moving is a lot I think we had up to 6 on a 50x50ft layout so plenty for wireless and yes keeping a manual option means if two or three can bring a LA152 and hard wired throttle they can be used too. I use the smartphone and it lasts about 4 hours so we cycle them with one on charge. If you're using it at a station then you can get one of the longer 3-5m charge leads and use it wired for power and that's the one on charge

[Suzie]

It is the train crew that needs a throttle between them. The standard is specifically brand agnostic so it is unreasonable to expect a module builder to wire for all types of tethered throttle and supply an example of each brand of tethered throttle. Some modular systems specify the brand of control system in which case it is feasible to do this, but not for this system. The control system must be realistic and accessible to all that are participating.

 

Good design and choice of equipment should ensure that Wi-Fi coverage can be extended to cover a small hall with little difficulty. If a command station is required to run more than ten trains then it is no good choosing one that has a low limit - other command stations are available!