Modular Control - DCC Setup and Walkabouts

[PaulRhB]

It will depend on what members attending have though as Kenton said we don't need or want to be spending £300 just to participate so we may have to design layouts based on the available control system

Circuit breakers on each module with points is overkill really, one on each bus and you only shutdown a small section. The fault is usually someone running into a point so it's solved quickly without damage and can be reset and running in moments. That was the experience at Armitage and if everyone relaxes and doesn't get het up there's no problem

 

As an example you could base the meeting on someone's digitrax system who has 10 throttles, then a few others bring their throttles, wires and plates. As a backup in case of a no show you can have someone's smaller system as backup with only ten throttles. Ten may sound a small number but it's a lot really to be moving at once and it's not about intense operation.

[Kenton]

 

It is the train crew that needs a throttle between them. The standard is specifically brand agnostic so it is unreasonable to expect a module builder to wire for all types of tethered throttle and supply an example of each brand of tethered throttle. Some modular systems specify the brand of control system in which case it is feasible to do this, but not for this system. The control system must be realistic and accessible to all that are participating.

 

It is just the wiring that makes control systems different = even the sockets cannot seem to be agreed on by the manufacturers - as said above mine are incompatible and neither use RJ12. I have no intention of signing up for Lenz or any other specific "standard" controller. Besides that is the whole point of adopting banana plugs/sockets at the module/layout ends isn't it? The controller will plug in to that adopted standard. Or am I missing something because that is how my layouts work DCC the throttle plugs into the controller (box) the control box is wired to phono plugs and they plug into the phono sockets at the board which are connected to the bus wires. So replace/adapt/convert the phono plugs to banana plugs and I have a fully functioning DCC system.

 

Apparently I can purchase (at enormous expense) a receiver thingy lead that plugs into the control box (in place of the throttle lead) and have a new throttle that is "wireless".

 

The issue here is the provision of plates for throttle not all of which are the same - and I do not see their relevance - if I provide a plate for Lenz it will not be compatible with other systems (including mine!) so is a waste of my effort and money. In my DCC world the throttle plugs into the control box NOT the layout. I am presuming that in a wireless world the same is true, the control box (or PC plugged into it) provided the wireless signal and interprets the returned message from the iphone placing the relevant signal packets back on the DCC bus. (banana connection)

[Kenton]

 

Kenton, you're seeing 2 ends of different sticks here

 

The banana plugs that have been agreed on are for the DCC track power bus. Controllers don't connect to that They have their own bus,

Not so. On mine it is exactly as I described above. Yes it is the throttles that have a different bus but the connection to the layout is 2 wires (in my case using phono). The CAB "Jack" socket (not an RJ12) goes to the handheld throttle (not a fancy plate on the layout). Lenz/Digitrax/etc control boxes may do things differently but the end result should be the same - 2 banana plugs providing DCC power and signal to the module. No fancy end plates required. Even my other DCC system (Bachmann) has ONLY 2 wires to connect to the track.

 

[Suzie]

I'd propose the following: anyone building a station or yard brings a spare adaptor along for their own DCC system (Lenz, Digitrax, etc). On the total cost of building a station or yard (>GBP500) the cost of an extra adaptor (20 quid max) is negligible. These spare adaptors can then be used on locations where owners don't have the adaptor for the DCC system that's used in the meet.

 

Since most people will not be using wired throttles (Z21, e-link etc. users) what are they supposed to bring?

[Suzie]

The MRC/Gaugemaster systems use RJ45 connectors for the cab bus (as does Bachmann E-Z Command XBUS).

 

MRC can be made Wi-Fi by connecting the MRC computer interface to the MRC cab bus connector and running JMRI (latest test version at the moment) on a connected computer which would protect Kenton's investment in an Android or i-thing to use as a cab at meets because it can be used at home as well.

[Steve-e]

Couple of questions

 

I've purchased the banana plugs and sockets and some wire to go in between and can solder dropper wires to the track I understand that bit as been the standard and am confident I've picked that bit up ok but...

 

All this talk about panels I guess you mean one of these http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=11&products_id=332 which is just a nice recomendation so we can plug throttles in?

 

So if you were to put one on the module do you just do that and attach it some how to your board and someone will wire it up at a meet or do you need to add some other wiring in addition to the banana socket wires? I mean you dont need any additional wires from the panel to anywhere on the module board track etc?? the panel just links to the master control box is that right?

 

Also throttles could someone link a picture or two of wired throttles that could be used and is there a cheap version available?

example this is about £50.00 http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/throttles/ut4/documents/UT4andUT4R.pdf would it work and are there any cheaper??

 

I see this as discussion at the moment so will hold of looking at any possible purchases also I haven't got any wood sorted yet so it will probably be a bit off but just interested to know how it all works.

 

Sorry to ask the questions but its a bit different to my Dynamis with 2 wires to the track and hopefully there are others thinking the same..

 

Thanks

Steve

 

PS. (other DCC Suppliers are available.)

[PaulRhB]

Steve

I'd leave it for now.

Once some groups are established building modules we can see who has a big enough systems. When you decide to attend a meet you can see what is being used and make the decision then.

Plenty of time to work out the most common and then make a choice.

 

The control network will be completely seperate to your module so you can leave a space on the frame to mount in a xpressnet, or whatever, panel or mount it on a wood plate that can be clamped to the frame at a meet to go on the best side for operation at that meet. No extra wiring required as if that's the method we use for control it will be wired up with cables in the day.

[cromptonnut]

I've temporarily attached an LA152 to my baseboard frame before with nothing more than a couple of drawing pins through the top two screw holes, letting it dangle underneath the framework.  A small clamp would also work similarly well.

 

Modules can be made with no reference to attaching controllers - particularly if they're plain scenic, and you only need someone with a long cable to run between stations/yard/whatever to continue the bus - if wireless isn't an option.

 

I would say we are probably at least 6 months off our first small-scale meetups and probably at least a year to two years away from "big national meetups" so there is plenty of time for these sort of things to sort themselves out.

 

Remember also that at any meet, only a few participants will actually be "running trains" at any given time - some will just be sitting back watching the trains go by or doing some photography, some will be sitting chatting to their friends, some may even take the time to work on their boards (as long as it's got a working through line, nothing else really needs to be complete) so you may find out of 10 people, 5 bring compatible controllers with them which is more than enough.

[Glorious NSE]

I think this wandered up some very odd cul-de-sacs over the weekend....this is most definately not to be seen as a "sell", but there have been some very odd comments about "everyone having to buy stuff" for a wireless option whilst assuming that's different for a wired one, when to my mind the opposite is closer to the truth!

 

To do a wired throttle bus for the layout, the group will need:

1. One person to bring a DCC "base" station to run the layout.
2. Enough throttles which must be compatible with that base station to run the number of trains that you need to run - that's assuming that folk in the group are happy to lend.
3. OR a throttle which must be compatible with that base station each if folk are not happy to lend or else they cannot run a train. Don't know about other systems but buying a handset on the one I use will cost you £80+
4. Enough places compatible with the throttles to plug those throttles in as you move around with your train - that will cost you maybe £15 per panel - you'll ideally want at least one each side of a module that has anything more complicated than plain track. (Yes, there's ways to reduce that cost, but that's the simple version.)

So, for somebody coming new to this who wants to get in, they may have a worst case of £110 of costs in adding panels to their module and buying a throttle for whatever system the local group uses. S/H throttles and panels are not easy to find as the marketplace is fairly small relatively.

 

(With the unspoken inference, that if they go and meet with a different group, their throttle and their sockets may not be compatible with that other group.)

 

To do a wireless throttle solution for the layout, the group will need:

1. One person to bring a DCC "base" station to run the layout.
2. One person needs to bring some kind of wifi setup to connect the throttles. That can be a system specific one for that system (likely simpler to set up, but more expensive to buy), or it can be as cheap as USB interface + laptop running JMRI + used router (the kind of thing i'm sure half of us have sat in a cupboard somewhere...) - I would be surprised if nobody had the bits to do this already within a group of 10 or so people.
3. Enough throttles to run the number of trains that you need to run - that's assuming that folk in the group are happy to lend.
4. OR a throttle each if folk are not happy to lend or they cannot run a train. A compatible throttle in this case can be (most) smartphones, or tablets, or some MP3 players or games platforms. Many, many folk (DCC or DC) will already have some kind of a device that can become a throttle. If you don't have one and you need to obtain one then ask relatives for their old ones if they are on contract - if you really don't have anything suitable, you really can't borrow, and don't have any relatives to hit up, you might then as a last resort need to buy one. If so I reckon a reasonable used Android mobile phone should cost you under £20 these days. (You don't need any contract, or a sim card, and you don't need to use it for anything else beyond being a throttle.)
5. The folk with the throttles will need to download the correct software (the basic version of the majority, if not all of those is free) to use with the wireless system being used. 
6. You need to add nothing to the module.

So, for somebody coming new to this who wants to get in, they may have a worst case of £20 of costs to buy a used mobile phone to use as a throttle. Why so cheap? Handsets are produced in their millions and that's supported by an industry that gets their consumers to change them every couple of years! As a result used ones are ten a penny and once they are over 2 years out of date they are not worth a lot to the majority of the marketplace - Luckily for us that's a great benefit if you just want something affordible to use it as a throttle however!

 

Don't read this either as being "anti" wired throttle busses, they are a great thing to have, but they do require a big chunk of consensus to be viable...

[Kenton]

 

The MRC/Gaugemaster systems use RJ45 connectors for the cab bus (as does Bachmann E-Z Command XBUS).

 

MRC can be made Wi-Fi by connecting the MRC computer interface to the MRC cab bus connector and running JMRI (latest test version at the moment) on a connected computer which would protect Kenton's investment in an Android or i-thing to use as a cab at meets because it can be used at home as well.

Thanks Suzie, I didn't know which to click "Thanks" or "Not Understood" because I'm afraid you lost me at "MRC can be made Wi-Fi". Are you saying that I need to purchase a computer interface, a computer, software and an i-thing/Android just to go WiFi throttle? If that is the case then the £300 MRC WiFi dedicated throttle and plug in receiver sound a cheaper option. All to do something that I am afraid, do not seem to be needed at home (small layouts 1-3 locos usually running on DC).

 

 

...Enough places compatible with the throttles to plug those throttles in as you move around with your train

 

...

 

(With the unspoken inference, that if they go and meet with a different group, their throttle and their sockets may not be compatible with that other group.)

 

But that sums up the real problem - even in a small group of folk who already use DCC (there will be at least one who probably doesn't want to be DCC (at home) and so has no need of anything DCC) there will be many different types of DCC in use. So are we saying that the person who turns up with the biggest/most powerful gets to dictate the others what they should have as THE flavour of throttle?

 

We could find ourselves being led/dragged screaming down the Lenz route as defacto DCC system or when the national meet up there is a different flavour of panel in use.

 

I still do not understand why LenzNet (whatever) makes any difference to each module. The module ONLY requires 2 wires and those 2 wires (in my case) come out of my DCC control box and connect to the DCC bus. No fancy panel.

 

On my module if I decide to control my signals/points/etc by DC - I'll need a DC control panel with switches and a transformer to supply them (Remember the Accessory bus is separate from the track bus. - if I decide to control those things with DCC then I will need to bring along my DCC controller and to plug it in to my module's accessory bus. I STILL DO NOT NEED any fancy panel.

 

I keep getting the impression here (as so often) that DCC is being sold - and some have an agenda for a particular type of control system.

[Suzie]

Not sure how much the dedicated MRC computer interface is, a Raspberry Pi computer is under £40, JMRI software is free and a secondhand android or i-thingy  is £20. Significantly less than £300 in total. Extra wireless throttles are just the £20 android/i-thingys.

[Talltim]

Don't you need a screen with a raspberry pi tho? At least to set it up

[Talltim]

So yes. You either need a screen (and keyboard) or another computer, with a... screen and keyboards

(I SSHed to a switch today, couldn't work out why the Cisco ATA wouldn't talk to it despite trying various speed and duplex settings, static ip address using the IVR, checked DHCP on the CUCM but that seemed ok. The switch port had the voice VLAN enabled on it (and a phone worked in the same port) Gave it up as a bad job and plugged it into a different switch where it jus worked)

[cromptonnut]

Still not sure that this is such the big issue that it's being made out to be.  Perhaps think about it this way.

 

When a "meet" is advertised, as well as the location and time(s), surely it is up to the organiser to also state right from the start that we are using a wireless setup, Lenz wired setup, or whatever so people know what control system is going to be used.  The organiser should have a vague idea (after the first few meets) what equipment people have and who is prepared to bring along their base unit or what the "regular attenders" like to use.

 

It's 100 miles away and they're using Lenz so I can take my controller as well so I respond that I'm attending.

 

It's 100 miles away and they're using wireless control (which I don't have) so I give that meet a miss as I don't feel it's worth going all that way just to sit and watch other people's trains go by.

 

It's 20 miles away and they're using wireless control (which I don't have) but I'll go along anyway, just taking my scenic modules but not the station (which requires a controller) and take the opportunity to take photos and meet up with Bob who I've been talking to about something or another on RMWeb - the modular aspect in this case being the secondary reason for going.

 

Of course, if someone wants to operate on a wired setup, and they have the equipment to connect wirelessly as well, then that's the best of both worlds - but going "wireless only", particularly from the get-go, may exclude a lot of people.  A lot of people still haven't been sold on the idea of DCC - for whatever reason - although it's clearly a no-brainer when it comes to modular layouts, but on a small BLT or shunting plank where you only have one loco operating they just have no need to go DCC.   

[Glorious NSE]

But that sums up the real problem - even in a small group of folk who already use DCC (there will be at least one who probably doesn't want to be DCC (at home) and so has no need of anything DCC) there will be many different types of DCC in use. So are we saying that the person who turns up with the biggest/most powerful gets to dictate the others what they should have as THE flavour of throttle?

 

 

I don't see where i said any such thing. But to run dcc on the layout the folk using it will need to use one DCC system. 

 

 still do not understand why LenzNet (whatever) makes any difference to each module. The module ONLY requires 2 wires and those 2 wires (in my case) come out of my DCC control box and connect to the DCC bus. No fancy panel. 

 

C'mon Kenton. I don't know why you insist on playing so stupid - you're patently not some kind of moron - surely you can get the concept that to plug more than one wired throttle in to the system you need more than one socket to plug the additional throttles into. 

[Suzie]

Don't you need a screen with a raspberry pi tho? At least to set it up

 

Yes, but the screen for a Raspberry Pi is a television and we all have one of those. Once it is set up you don't need a screen or keyboard, but it can be handy.

[Talltim]

My parents don't

[Suzie]

My parents don't

 

It is well worth them asking around - I am sure that someone will be able to lend them something in the way of a monitor or television when they are setting up their Raspberry Pi. It might be easier in practice if they just bring a smartphone to meets and let someone else set up the DCC system.

[Talltim]

It's ok, they've got 5 PC/laptops between them. Mind you, it's irrelevant, my Dad is a strictly DC modeller

[Kenton]

 

C'mon Kenton. I don't know why you insist on playing so stupid - you're patently not some kind of moron - surely you can get the concept that to plug more than one wired throttle in to the system you need more than one socket to plug the additional throttles into.

I do understand that I do need to be able to plug my throttle into my control box (NOT THE MODULE) to control the auxiliary DCC bus (signals/points/etc). I also understand that somewhere down the line of banana plugs there will be someone with a bigger more powerful DCC control box powering the track.

 

The problems are twofold:

If I wish to take part in loco driving I either have to have (or borrow) the same DCC throttle type as the track control box - or (if that box is running wireless) I require a compatible wireless throttle or (mobile phone).

 

and..

If we are operating wired then the wired throttle needs to be connected from the big control box to every module (as well as the 2 lead DCC bus). SO every module must have a compatible faceplate to connect in the command chain AND to provide a point to plug in the driver's throttle as they move round with the loco.

 

As the faceplates and sockets/plugs are different for each DCC system/throttle several would have to be provided to cover the possibilities of a different big command station at different meets. Totally impractical.

 

In our little world of our own layouts we do not need faceplates as there are not multiple throttles in use (or when they are the faceplates and throttles are of the same brand/compatibility.

 

It is becoming increasingly obvious why there is a massive advantage to WiFi operation. No LenzNet/MyNEt/EuroNet whatever needed and no faceplates. Just that the big command box somewhere off down the banana plug chain provides the WiFi.

[cromptonnut]

Not necessarily Kenton ... you really only need plugin points at stations, yards and other modules where a stop or shunting moves are required.

 

When I stop my train at station A, I can unplug my controller and walk to station B, plug it in, then when I get the "RA" from stationmaster A I can then drive my train towards me and stop at station B as required.

 

Yes, you need a faceplate at those locations, and a cable between them - but cables aren't expensive; I picked up a 6 metre RJ12 cable from Ebay for just over a fiver. 

 

My intermediate modules such as my 4ft bridge section, where no "controlling" is technically required, will not come with a faceplate but I will simply use my cable (s) to bridge between faceplates on adjacent boards as required.  If you're used to using a wired system at home then you probably have several leads which can be used.  I've picked up some 5 pin DIN sockets from Ebay for literally pennies each which I'll be soldering up which, with DIN cables, is a cheaper way of making links between boards; three in a row gives an "in" - "controller" - "out" plugin ability.

 

If it's a complex station or yards that requires 3 or 4 operators then I would assume that the owner should, by default, be required to design/provide sufficient connection points within that module?  Notwithstanding "different system incompatibilities" of course, which Wifi should theoretically overcome?

[Glorious NSE]

 I do understand that I do need to be able to plug my throttle into my control box (NOT THE MODULE) to control the auxiliary DCC bus (signals/points/etc). I also understand that somewhere down the line of banana plugs there will be someone with a bigger more powerful DCC control box powering the track.

 

The post you replied to was not talking about the auxiliary bus at all - so that's where you're introducing the confusion. It was talking about a throttle bus.

 

The problems are twofold:

If I wish to take part in loco driving I either have to have (or borrow) the same DCC throttle type as the track control box - or (if that box is running wireless) I require a compatible wireless throttle or (mobile phone).

 

and..

If we are operating wired then the wired throttle needs to be connected from the big control box to every module (as well as the 2 lead DCC bus). SO every module must have a compatible faceplate to connect in the command chain AND to provide a point to plug in the driver's throttle as they move round with the loco.

 

Yes to the first - qualified yes to the second.

 

 As Cromptonnut says, you don't neccesarily have to religiously have a socket on every single module, you'd be unlikely to need one on your first module which has plain single track for example.

 

As the faceplates and sockets/plugs are different for each DCC system/throttle several would have to be provided to cover the possibilities of a different big command station at different meets. Totally impractical.

 

Maybe. This is something that the folks involved need to work out.

 

Local groups may want to standardise on something within their small group. The freedom is there to do that if they want to do so. 

 

You may later end up evolving some kind of defacto unofficial standard developing between neighboring groups that work together, for instance (and purely that) the majority of folk working in our "genre" either use Lenz or NCE, both of those use the same throttle bus wiring, so a Lenz throttle socket (NCE using the RJ connector, Lenz using the DINs usually) will work on a system running NCE or Lenz.

 

But getting to the point where we knew that took several years worth of working out who was actually actively involved, what they were using, and what components would work with what systems.

 

That particular version may not work for you folks, something else might!

 

In our little world of our own layouts we do not need faceplates as there are not multiple throttles in use (or when they are the faceplates and throttles are of the same brand/compatibility.

 

Yep.

 

It is becoming increasingly obvious why there is a massive advantage to WiFi operation. No LenzNet/MyNEt/EuroNet whatever needed and no faceplates. Just that the big command box somewhere off down the banana plug chain provides the WiFi.

 

Yep.

[Talltim]

You know, I'm glad I joined the Freemo fold after all this stuff had been thrashed out! I bought a Lenz system because it seemed to do what I needed and Freemo was already using it. Having said that, I took my controller to the meet and ended up not using it, borrowing a phone with WiThrottle from Paul instead!

[Steve-e]

You know, I'm glad I joined the Freemo fold after all this stuff had been thrashed out! I bought a Lenz system because it seemed to do what I needed and Freemo was already using it. Having said that, I took my controller to the meet and ended up not using it, borrowing a phone with WiThrottle from Paul instead!

Just needs someone to say right were doing it this way or that way and it will all settle down which seems to have worked so far.

If there are systems in the uk now that have been proven and the owner is keen on the uk set up then surely thats the most logical set up to go with.

 

Where others lead we will follow.

Steve

[Steve-e]

I suppose if we were a national society like thw N gauge society or DEMU for examples we could collectively own the main kit and it could be loaned to any regional groups and stored at BRM towers when not in use.

 

But the above is probably another can of worns but maybe something to think about in the future.

 

Edit :- Or even better get some sponsorship of the main box for free then we are encouraged to buy addons if needed for individual modules faceplates, throttles etc depending on what system we go for....

 

Steve