4VEP at Clapham Jct

[Joseph_Pestell]

Noticed when travelling through on Thursday that a 4VEP is parked in the carriage sidings. In "original" blue livery, I think.

 

I presume this is the unit that worked the Lymington branch for a while. What is planned for it? Won't come to much good parked outside for any length of time.

[asmay2002]

Noticed when travelling through on Thursday that a 4VEP is parked in the carriage sidings. In "original" blue livery, I think.

 

I presume this is the unit that worked the Lymington branch for a while. What is planned for it? Won't come to much good parked outside for any length of time.

It's been parked there for ages.

[Oldddudders]

Noticed when travelling through on Thursday that a 4VEP is parked in the carriage sidings. In "original" blue livery, I think.

 

I presume this is the unit that worked the Lymington branch for a while. What is planned for it? Won't come to much good parked outside for any length of time.

I think someone else had made a similar observation recently. The unit is privately preserved, has some links to the Bluebell, I believe. Is named after Gordon Pettit, former GM at Waterloo. I remain sceptical about preserving EMUs - or ELs - because of the difficulty of "enjoying" this expensive asset. Preservation societies are always short of funds, and adding 3rd-rail to their infrastructure needs a lot of money and quite a lot of clever protection to look after members, let alone those who regard such places as ripe for wandering about on the track. And as the years go by, finding drivers who are competent to drive these on the mainline will become increasingly difficult, too.

 

And who has a 4-car carriage shed with a road spare to berth and protect an EMU?

[DavidB-AU]

And as the years go by, finding drivers who are competent to drive these on the mainline will become increasingly difficult, too.

How is that any different from finding drivers component to drive steam locomotives on the main line?

 

Cheers

David

[Oldddudders]

How is that any different from finding drivers component to drive steam locomotives on the main line?

 

Cheers

David

Because a steam loco is a steam loco, and there are many available on preserved lines for keeping people trained in their handling. No TOC has used a slam-door EMU in some years, and their handling technique is quite different from the modern electronic type. With no preserved third rail, how is the competence to be maintained? Who can "sign" a 4-VEP, even now?

[cromptonnut]

3417 has a website.

 

http://www.setg.org.uk/

[DavidB-AU]

Because a steam loco is a steam loco, and there are many available on preserved lines for keeping people trained in their handling. No TOC has used a slam-door EMU in some years, and their handling technique is quite different from the modern electronic type. With no preserved third rail, how is the competence to be maintained? Who can "sign" a 4-VEP, even now?

An EMU is an EMU, and there are many available in regular service. Of course all are different in handling but that knowledge isn't lost forever. The Lymington branch is recent enough that there are still people alive who know how to handle them. There are probably more people who know how to handle a VEP today than could handle an Adams Radial in 1962. Knowledge can be reacquired too. Who could handle or sign for an A1 in 2008?

 

Preserved operation of steam was unthinkable until the Bluebell opened. Main line steam was unthinkable after the steam ban. But things can change. There is no preserved third rail yet, but there is potential for future third rail operation.

 

This sort of thing happens in aviation preservation all the time. Older types which haven't flown for decades are restored and the knowledge of how to fly them is re-learned. That's how an Avro Vulcan was returned to the skies in 2007, 33 years after the last flight in operational service. If pilots can do it, and flying a plane is arguably a lot more difficult than driving a train, why can't train drivers?

 

Cheers

David

[Torn-on-the-platform]

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/electric/vep3417.html - the Bluebell's own page on the 4VEP.

 

IIRC, the sum of £1 was exchanged, and Network Rail were required to do some trackwork in order to transfer the unit onto Bluebell metals.

 

I agree with Ian regarding the preservation of electrical units. Its a difficult subject, we'd like to see some preserved and running but its something that would be very expensive and difficult to achieve. They won't have the same nostalgic effect on Joe-public either and any scheme to see them run would be largely for the enthusiast.

[Trevellan]

I assume 3417 is kept at Clapham Junction because it's on the juice - i.e. "warm" storage to keep the various electrical bits going.

[cromptonnut]

I believe a group of South West Trains staff are still involved in its maintenance and repair.  Could Clapham Junction be the nearest/most convenient SWT "depot" to East Grinstead?  Wimbledon is further out, Stewarts Lane and Selhurst aren't SWT depots as far as I know.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

This picture was taken on 31st March this year.

 

 

Sadly there are very limited opportunities for running preserved electric units as anything other than loco hauled stock. I have always liked the idea of a self-contained electrified line (only the Lymington branch springs to mind) operated as a 'preserved' line at weekends using these old units. The enthusiasts could have their own sidings/shed somewhere along the line to store and maintain their units. All just a pipe-dream of course; but it would be nice!

 

[DavidB-AU]

we'd like to see some preserved and running but its something that would be very expensive and difficult to achieve. They won't have the same nostalgic effect on Joe-public either and any scheme to see them run would be largely for the enthusiast.

The same was said of a replica A1.

 

Cheers

David

[Ian J.]

Re running a third rail in preservation and the worries over safety. Would it be possible to design a system that would keep the third rail 'off' except when a unit was using it? I'm thinking maybe having an arrangement where the electrical section the unit is on and the one ahead (and possibly the one before as well) are 'on', and when the unit has departed a section of third rail that then 'automagically' isolates, and the one ahead of the current section switches on. This would mean that anyone wandering around when the line isn't occupied wouldn't be able to get electrocuted.

 

Additionally, automatic door locks would need to be present on all doors to keep passengers inside if the unit is travelling slowly enough (or stopped) while on the live line.

[phil-b259]

Re running a third rail in preservation and the worries over safety. Would it be possible to design a system that would keep the third rail 'off' except when a unit was using it? I'm thinking maybe having an arrangement where the electrical section the unit is on and the one ahead (and possibly the one before as well) are 'on', and when the unit has departed a section of third rail that then 'automagically' isolates, and the one ahead of the current section switches on. This would mean that anyone wandering around when the line isn't occupied wouldn't be able to get electrocuted.

 

Additionally, automatic door locks would need to be present on all doors to keep passengers inside if the unit is travelling slowly enough (or stopped) while on the live line.

 

And what happens when people get "used to" said 3rd rail being "off" only to be juiced up on the odd occasion its not? or go and muck around on a heritage railway 3rd rail setup when its off then get juiced up on the national network? These are some of the very significant reasons the HSE & ORR are very much against new, unprotected ground level electrification (as opposed to a DLR style setup) and while not specifically banning the introduction of such system, their attitude (and quite correctly in my view) is such systems are to be discouraged on the mainline and are totally unsuitable to be applied in the heritage sector in which an alarmingly high number of volunteers and a even grater number of the general public seem to think because its not "the mainline" they can do what they like.

 

On Network Rail ALL 3rd / 4th rail (and 25KV OHLE) MUST be treated as live at ALL TIMES, including sidings etc which haven't been used for years. Only when you have been properly briefed and are in possession of an isolation permit can you assume the juice is 'off' and even then in most cases safety requirements still require a test with an approved electrical tester before starting work.

 

On LU infrastructure (except Putney Bridge - Wimbledon where traction power is provided by NR) outside of normal traffic hours it used to be the case that the power was turned off - though this may have only been the tunnelled network rather than open air sections and certainly didn't include depots).

 

Overheads on the other hand are a more feasible proposition for heritage operations as they can be assumed to be "out of reach" as far as the general public is concerned although that still doesn't mean the HSE / ORR welcome them with open arms .

[Torn-on-the-platform]

The same was said of a replica A1.

 

Cheers

David

 

Yes, they said it would be difficult, and many said impossible, but that was a steam engine. Would a restored EMU returning to service get national news coverage in the same way that Tornado did? The opening of a third rail preserved line would perhaps grab some public attention, but I can't personally see it being anything compared to the steaming of Tornado.

 

I wouldn't however say that it is impossible, but I'd be surprised if it remained viable. I do like the idea of running lines such as the Lymington Branch as a heritage railway at weekends though.

[phil-b259]

As far as the Bluebell's VEP is concerned the best option in my opinion is to modify the heating and internal lighting so that it can be powered via a loco or static ETH supply*. That way it can be used as hauled stock (have the lights on when going through tunnels, have the heating in winter, etc) by a air braked ETH fitted loco and perhaps more importantly in winter the unit can be connected to a suitable shore supply to keep damp at bay when it's not being used.

 

* The only units fitted with conventional ETH gear as well as EMU style connections were the 3/4TC units built for the Bournemouth electrification - as without it the 33/1s couldn't have heated / lit the train (I believe the 'bagpipes' on the front were only associated with the driving & braking controls / air supply) All other EMU stock , while being capable of beating hauled by any air braked loco, relied upon the 3rd rail shoe gear to provide heating and lighting to the unit.

[bécasse]

* The only units fitted with conventional ETH gear as well as EMU style connections were the 3/4TC units built for the Bournemouth electrification - as without it the 33/1s couldn't have heated / lit the train (I believe the 'bagpipes' on the front were only associated with the driving & braking controls / air supply) All other EMU stock , while being capable of beating hauled by any air braked loco, relied upon the 3rd rail shoe gear to provide heating and lighting to the unit.

 

Sorry, Phil, but that can't be right. During the spring 1982 ASLEF dispute when their members only worked alternate days and when the effects of the dispute were significantly worsened one week by thick ice which formed on the third rail during "off" days, I travelled from Brighton to London Victoria on an emergency service formed of a class 33 hauling 8-CIG, the traction current being switched off. That train was lit and heated throughout. Two days later, the situation hadn't changed but the emergency service was hauled by a class 73 instead of a 33 and we only got emergency lighting (worked off the batteries) and no heating.

 

Those two days produced some of the most remarkable train formations that the Southern has ever witnessed, the strangest that I saw personally being an up Hampton Court to London Waterloo train formed 4-EPB plus class 09! On both days, electric working was able to resume around midday.

[Oldddudders]

 

Those two days produced some of the most remarkable train formations that the Southern has ever witnessed,

There are always bizarre formations on such occasions. ISTR in the '70s, a comparable dispute produced a 4-BIG on a Hampton Court service - with a guy serving throughout the journey out and back.

 

I think the 1982 dispute was when I didn't see my home for nearly a week. Sleeping in the office as On Call Officer for the South Eastern Division. Things to have done, rather than things to do. And Grove Park driver Derek Hodges worked in defiance of ASLEF instructions, was on record as saying "Buckton doesn't pay my mortgage!" Ray Buckton was the high-profile General Secretary of ASLEF.

[phil-b259]

Sorry, Phil, but that can't be right. During the spring 1982 ASLEF dispute when their members only worked alternate days and when the effects of the dispute were significantly worsened one week by thick ice which formed on the third rail during "off" days, I travelled from Brighton to London Victoria on an emergency service formed of a class 33 hauling 8-CIG, the traction current being switched off. That train was lit and heated throughout. Two days later, the situation hadn't changed but the emergency service was hauled by a class 73 instead of a 33 and we only got emergency lighting (worked off the batteries) and no heating.

 

Those two days produced some of the most remarkable train formations that the Southern has ever witnessed, the strangest that I saw personally being an up Hampton Court to London Waterloo train formed 4-EPB plus class 09! On both days, electric working was able to resume around midday.

 

If I am mistaken fair enough, but my information is based on several well informed sources at the Bluebell with more than a passing interest in 'modern' traction, plus I seem to recal the lack of the ability to heat / provide proper lighting has been a key factor why previously 'preserved' units at the likes of the Great Central & the Dean Forest found themselves dumped in remote sidings where they became targets for the copper fairies / vandals.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There used to be 3rd rail at Horsted Keynes off the branch from the Brighton line via Ardingly.

 

What an opportunity to create a Southern 3rd rail working line/museum there.

[TravisM]

I was sure even though it's been handed to the Bluebell for it's custodianship, I think in reality it will remain either at Clapham Junction or Wimbledon for the forseeable future.  I believe that there are a number of fitters and drivers who'd like to see the old girl gallop along the mainline again.

 

Personally, I believe it deserves to be on the Swanage Railway being push/pulled by a bagpipe Class 33.  Just my opinion.

 

Julian Sprott

[AngryMeerkat]

I was sure even though it's been handed to the Bluebell for it's custodianship, I think in reality it will remain either at Clapham Junction or Wimbledon for the forseeable future.  I believe that there are a number of fitters and drivers who'd like to see the old girl gallop along the mainline again.

 

Personally, I believe it deserves to be on the Swanage Railway being push/pulled by a bagpipe Class 33.  Just my opinion.

 

Julian Sprott

Funny you mention Swanage.....

 

With the return of a connection linking Swanage to the main line, is there a future for this unit providing a dedicated link from London or a point South, to the station with the link to the Swanage preserved line?

 

Mark

[DavidB-AU]

There used to be 3rd rail at Horsted Keynes off the branch from the Brighton line via Ardingly.

 

What an opportunity to create a Southern 3rd rail working line/museum there.

That has been discussed by Bluebell.

 

Cheers

David

[lightengine]

 

I think the 1982 dispute was when I didn't see my home for nearly a week. Sleeping in the office as On Call Officer for the South Eastern Division. Things to have done, rather than things to do. And Grove Park driver Derek Hodges worked in defiance of ASLEF instructions, was on record as saying "Buckton doesn't pay my mortgage!" Ray Buckton was the high-profile General Secretary of ASLEF.

 

I bet Derek Hodges never got spoken to again. In the 80's I remember sitting in train crew mess rooms and suddenly silence descended when a driver walked in. It turned out that the said driver had 'scabbed' in '52!

[Guest]

The unit in question has been used as Coaching stock at a few of Swanage Railway's Diesel Galas