F21 CV 300 value

[Sultan]

I'm moving sound function keys around for a Zimo 645 chip which has the rail exclusive class 47 sound project and am learning not to badly what to do and what happens as I progress,I am using program on the main and access to the function keys via cv 300 and my NCE powercab,I understand and have been able to alter the function key  I wanted  between 0-19 via cv 300 F key values but have spent ages and cannot find  what value or what to do for entry into this cv to reach key F21 which I would like to swap with another.

      I would appreciate any help with this,

 

Thanks and best regards to all,

 

Sultan

 

 

 

Edit to heading for better topic title

[Sultan]

Perhaps this link that I've just read and attached  answers my question,If I have  30.6 firmware version  then my value is 421 which  can be entered via normal cv writing and reading.

 

http://www.sound-design.white-stone.ch/Beschreibungen/ZIMO%20Function%20Key%20Mapping.pdf

 

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

[pauliebanger]

ZIMO Input Mapping is active in all RAIL EXCLUSIVE sound projects, but I suspect that it will not achieve what you are trying to do.

 

It does not permanently change the sound project in any way, undo your changes and everything goes back to how it was.

 

However, it works not by remapping a function to another key, just by making another key operate the function assigned to the first key. This is profoundly different from CV300 remapping.

 

Let's say you have a horn sound on F key 8. CV300 can be used to remove that sound from F8 and also to reassign it to, say, F15.

Input mapping will allow you to play the sound (still assigned to F8 in the project) with F15, but it does not remove it from F8. ie, it does not free up F8 so that you can asssign something else to it. If for instance you assigned cab light switching to F8 in these circumstances, pressing F15 would blow the horn and operate the cab lights simultaneously.

 

I am pretty sure that anything already assigned to F15 will be operated too, though I am less sure on that issue.

 

Input mapping has many advantages depending upon what you are trying to achieve. You can make sounds direction dependant, invert the action of keys(on becomes off and vice versa, stack sounds and functions easily onto the same Fkey. But there is no internal remapping - the clue is in the name really.

 

CV300 works the same way for all F keys. To remove or edit a sound currently on F6, you would use CV300 = 6. For F28, CV300 = 28. This opens up the keyboard for you to edit the sound assigned to that key only. You need to repeat this for each F key sound you wish to change.

 

However, proceed with some caution. Do not assume that because there is no sound allocated to a particular F key, that there is nothing assigned in the sound project to that key.

 

For instance, if you have RE Class 47 V2.0, then F21 carries instructions to operate cab lights. There are no cab lights fitted to ViTrains 47s so the feature is redundant, but in Bachmann 47,aux 1 operates cab lights. In the sound project, to make it easier for Bachmann users to wire up, F21 operates aux 1. (F20 is the shunting key - half speed and reduced inertia/momentum).

 

There are very powerful tools to enable users to customise the way the project works and which F keys perform which tasks with ZIMO sound decoders. With that comes the possibility of unexpected outcomes. Whatever you do, short of physically or electrically damaging the hardware, the underlying sound project and all the CV values used to create the entire project will remain on the decoder until re-blown.

 

With one notable exception. Although the ZIMO RE Class 47 is not reliant on high values in CVs 3 and 4, there is an insidious button on the PowerCab which in seeking to provide a useful feature uses the wrong (ie, not NMRA) method to achieve it. The PowerCab (and ProCab) manual explains what it does, but many people don't read the manual (why should you - it says on the outside of the PowerCab box that it is so intuitive that you don't need to read the manual), and of those that do, many do not realise the possible consequences.

 

Please note, that unless you are trying to consist any other brand of decoder with an ESU decoder of any description, this will will not have any serious consequences for non-sound decoders.

 

The button I refer to is the one marked 'Momentum'. That's intuitive enough - it changes the momentum of the loco under control, and you can change momentum as often as you wish. However, what is not intuitive (or NMRA compliant) is that it does so by writing new values 'permanently' to your decoder. It does not, like most other systems which have a similar function, temporarilly add or subtract a figure from the 'base' value, but calculates a new value and over-writes the value on the decoder. This could have serious consequences for the way in which sound projects work.

 

The only way to undo this is to re-write the correct value subsequently, but if you do not realise that PoweCab has changed you CVs without telling you, then you may not see the need to perform this re-writing.

 

So, for sound decoders, I strongly recommend that you do not use the Momentum button on your PowerCab/ProCab. And with the RE 47 (indeed all my sound projects) on ZIMO, the light engine key already (temporarilly) changes the momentum and inertia settings, reverting back correctly when the key is disengaged.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[ColinK]

Thanks for that explaination about momentum and the Powercab. I suspect I've accidentally changed the momentum setting on at least one of my sound locos!

[pauliebanger]

Colin,

 

You are welcome.

 

That's why I called it insidious . Quite a few people who ask me for advice during my sound clinics have inadvertantly done the same thing.

 

It's not such a problem with current ZIMO projects because progress through the sound schedule is not as dependant upon momentum to operate correctly as, say, Loksound or CT Elektronik.

 

In addition to that dependancy on 'known' momentum values (which is a feature, not a fault) Loksound and Lokpilot decoders have an additional issue which is exacerbated by the NCE way of changing momentum settings.

 

There is an NMRA standard way of calculating momentum. ESU have, for undisclosed reasons, decided to use a different formula. This results in Loksound decoders requiring a larger value in CVs 3 and 4 than for all other brands to acheive the same level of momentum.

 

Two issues arise from this.

 

1 ) NCE PowerCab/PowerPro use the NMRA calculations to write new values to CV3 and 4 to any decoder. Result for Loksound decoders will be that momentum will be much reduced from the figures the sound project is anticipating for its control calculations, even at the highest setting on the PowerCab. The sound project may suddenly apear to operate differently.

 

2 ) Consisting. If you have spent a long time speed matching locos fitted with different brands of decoder fo use in consists, you want that relationship to remain. (I would anyway). In the majority of cases, NCE 'Momentum' button will have the same impact on all decoders in the consist, so although NCE may screw with your settings, at least they are all screwed in the same way!  Not so if you have a Loksound or Lokpilot in a mixed decoder consist, for the reasons given above. Not only will speed matching be lost, but will be dramatically out of step.

 

This state of affairs has arisen because two manufacturers, NCE and ESU have gone their own way in the area of inertia and momentum settings, and each amplifies the unexpected results (deviation from the norm) provided by the other. 

 

To be fair, both manufacturers include information on their momentum calculations in their respective operating manuals. But neither highlight the impact this will have for end users - even those who actually read the manuals.

 

 

This also highlights the importance of testing sound projects on a wide range of DCC controllers before release to the public. All my ZIMO sound projects are fully tested on DCC controllers from ZIMO (obviously!), ESU, Lenz/Roco, Digitrax, Gaugemaster, Hornby and  ZTC (restricted F keys). Even then, very occasionally something may slip through.

 

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Sultan]

Thank you for your reply to my post Paul it is much appreciated by me.
I'll open up on my reasoning for wanting to change the sound F keys around and what I am trying to achieve,
 
Automatic uncoupling with one function key and incorporating couple/uncouple sound with a Krois uncoupler. Firstly using Zimo decoders and then ESU (with help from my borrowed Lokprogrammer)
 
For my first step I wanted to achieve the uncoupling waltz then when that's completed move onto the 2nd step fit the Krois uncoupler.
 
I have a sprog with JMRI decoder pro 3.9.1 version to help me, for some reason I cannot get the pseudo script for changing sound F keys to work correctly so that's why I chose to ops pom for 47555.
 
.Anyway the attached video shows 47828 with also  REx 47 sounds which I programmed just using the decoder pro categories and the Zimo instructions.
 
I hope that the video of 47828 looks good and makes me look like a programming wizard on my first attempt but behind the scenes I have achieved the waltzing with sound in perhaps an unusual but typical learners way.
 
F8 operates the uncoupling cycle because the original project has the sounds for cpl/uncpl allocated to it,.Zimo manual states F1-6 should be for allocating coupling special effect.
                       I lost the shunt capability but then found out why and allocated it to the same F sound key as Spirax valves F19 so if you want the shunt feature it also plays the spirax  valve sound you can still turn this on and off with the the loco stopped and when in shunt,slow moving loco the sound is more noticeable.(no world wide pats pending on this).The front  loco lights stay on when the waltz F8 is pushed and the rear lights come on briefly for the auto cycle,rear lights being turned on when uncoupling is not prototypical.But I think when the coupling feature is moved to F1-6 this will go?
 
So, from learning this with 47828 for 47555  I would like to and  will try again with ops pom and cv's is to do the following,
 Swop F21-shunt with sound function F3 horn (almost all my other locos have F3 as shunt) -not loose the shunt slow loco feature. 
 Swop F8 sound cpl/uncpl with F5 horn then allocate special effects waltz value 48 to F5 (using decoderpro)
 Rear white lights not to come on when loco is "waltzing"

 

Sorry for dragging my original post out a bit lot but I hope you all enjoy the video anyway!

Probably a good thing that I'll be away from the railway for the next fortnight as it can be good to take a step backwards and reflect.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Sultan.

 

http://youtu.be/ipQbvAXA_GM

[pauliebanger]

Nice video, shows 'Coupler Waltz' operation very well. Thanks.

 

I am 'with' anyone trying to explore/use the powerful features available, so I'll try to help all I can.

 

If it's not obvious to anyone from the video, ZIMO Coupler Waltz is a sequence of movements designed to release many types of 'automatic' coupling systems. After all the parameters have been stored on the decoder, a single push on the designated F key starts the sequence which is then fully automated. Sounds can also be assigned to the same F key so buffering and uncoupling sounds can accompany the procedure.

 

Sultan,

 

Check out CV107 and 108. 'Unilateral light suppression'. Switchably prevents all lights at one end or the other from operating. Swiss Mapping, with the 'M' key assigned to the same key as Coupler Waltz might achieve this more elegantly, but I'll have to think about that a bit more.

 

PM me. I think I have a way to make the buffering sound happen after the movement starts and before it stops.

[Nigelcliffe]

I have a sprog with JMRI decoder pro 3.9.1 version to help me, for some reason I cannot get the pseudo script for changing sound F keys to work correctly so that's why I chose to ops pom for 47555.

The most likely reason the script doesn't work is because the Sprog is in "Sprog" mode, rather than "Sprog Command Station". The two modes are very different, and the script needs a command station working with ops-mode programming instructions. So, the Sprog must be set to "Sprog Command Station". 

 

If its failing for other reasons, I'm happy to work with you to try to debug it.

 

The script supports commands documented by Zimo. It would appear that Zimo are adding features to decoders (such as access to F20 to F28 in PseudoProgramming), and documenting them much later (or not at all).  If such things matter to you, either make your own edits to the script or wait until the documentation is brought up to date, and that someone on the JMRI team (probably me because I wrote those bits) makes a change.

 

 

The PowerCab has another undocumented feature which causes problems with Zimo.   The Uncoupling waltz is dependent on when stop-bits are sent to a decoder.  The PowerCab's I've used result in a loco which doesn't stop at the end of the Waltz.   There is a fix for this, a change to the PowerCab's internal settings to increase the time period that the NCE unit repeats DCC packets, so they are longer than the time for the Waltz to complete.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

[pauliebanger]

Sultan,

 

Just noticed that the caption at 3.10 says F8 non-latching. How did you achieve this with the PowerCab, please?

 

Paul

[Sultan]

Thank you Paul for your rating and reply to my post I will take up your kind offer and PM you when I am back home with the railway in just over a fortnights time.Its through you and others with helpful RM web posts and my jealousy of what features European model manufactures are incorporating into their new products that's given me the confidence and push to try this.

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

[Sultan]

Sorry,F8 non latching  with the powercab  is an error by myself in the video which I didn't spot,it is indeed latching as is seen and heard when I push F8 again.

 

In the JMRI throttle its F8 I've easily made non  latching with its properties. 

 

I've learnt that that with the Krois coupling non latching  will be important for prevention of the solenoid coil in the coupling when it is fitted.Again thanks from me to other enthusiasts who have posted on this.Thinking ahead,I use powercab and JMRI throttles so I will have to pick a non latching F for powercab cpl/uncpl.

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

[Nigelcliffe]

I've learnt that that with the Krois coupling non latching  will be important for prevention of the solenoid coil in the coupling when it is fitted.Again thanks from me to other enthusiasts who have posted on this.Thinking ahead,I use powercab and JMRI throttles so I will have to pick a non latching F for powercab cpl/uncpl.

 

The use of "non-latching" is recommended for decoders which cannot turn off power to the uncoupler automatically after a short period of time. Krois say 10 seconds maximum run time.  But Zimo (and a few others) can automatically turn off the power, so non-latching is optional for those decoders.

 

Krois specifically recommend Zimo and CT as being able to automatically turn off the power to the uncoupler after a few seconds, as well as completing the Waltz.  Using the timing feature protects the coupler from over-load.  ESU and (I think) Lenz have this as well, but introduced more recently and after the Krois documentation was written. 

 

Krois manual is at  :

http://www.krois-modell.at/manuals/MK_Kupplungen.pdf

 ( and will translate tolerably well with online translation tools ).

 

 

So, with the function keys there is a choice:

 

• If you use a non-latching key, you have to hold the function key "on" for the entire coupling sequence to complete. 
• With a non-latching key the behaviour works and power is removed from the coupler at the end of the sequence.  You still have to remember to turn off the function manually at some time before the next use of the coupler.  (And may have to adjust the setting on the PowerCab I mentioned earlier).

 

It's a trade-off,  hold the key down whilst the move completes, or turn on and remember to turn off at the end.

 

 

I started making my own DCC controlled couplers for 2mm and 4mm scales in 2007, began writing about them in 2008, and reached a design which I was happy with towards the end of 2008.  The Krois information was very useful in working towards my designs.   CT have more options for control of the Waltz and coupling movement than Zimo, though the Zimo implementation is fine for most situations  (and I certainly wouldn't choose CT for sound over ESU and Zimo ! ).

[Sultan]

Thank you Nigel for your replies to my post which will be a great help and influence my thinking when I reach the second stage of my "have a go at waltzing"I would like to strike whilst the iron and topic is hot and carry on straight away but work now takes me away. When trying pseudo mode with Sprog I did change to command station in preferences but could not make any progress after making my selections.I'll try again when I'm home and take you up on your offer of assistance if I may.

 

Thank you again for your posts and help,

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

[pauliebanger]

Sorry,F8 non latching  with the powercab  is an error by myself in the video which I didn't spot,it is indeed latching as is seen and heard when I push F8 again.

 

 

 

I thought NCE had finally seen the light and provided the option to change from latching to non-latching. Oh well, back to the 'switch the horn on - and now switch it off again' nonsense. Lol.

 

So, the only remaining non-latching F key on the PowerCab is the Horn/Whistle button. Though your ZIMO's superior specification will offset the requirement for non-latching as Nigel has pointed out.

 

Best to use a key F6 or lower, since PowerCab only displays up to F6 without expanding.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Nigelcliffe]

Thank you Nigel for your replies to my post which will be a great help and influence my thinking when I reach the second stage of my "have a go at waltzing"I would like to strike whilst the iron and topic is hot and carry on straight away but work now takes me away. When trying pseudo mode with Sprog I did change to command station in preferences but could not make any progress after making my selections.I'll try again when I'm home and take you up on your offer of assistance if I may.

Another easy failure for a script is "didn't turn the track power on before starting". If not that, then get in touch by PM when you're back and we can go through what is happening and try to find where things fail. It should be simple, the script is just automating button pushes on a DCC handset and remembering which buttons have been pressed for you.

 

- Nigel

[theflyingspanner]

Nice video, shows 'Coupler Waltz' operation very well. Thanks.

 

I am 'with' anyone trying to explore/use the powerful features available, so I'll try to help all I can.

 

If it's not obvious to anyone from the video, ZIMO Coupler Waltz is a sequence of movements designed to release many types of 'automatic' coupling systems. After all the parameters have been stored on the decoder, a single push on the designated F key starts the sequence which is then fully automated. Sounds can also be assigned to the same F key so buffering and uncoupling sounds can accompany the procedure.

 

Sultan,

 

Check out CV107 and 108. 'Unilateral light suppression'. Switchably prevents all lights at one end or the other from operating. Swiss Mapping, with the 'M' key assigned to the same key as Coupler Waltz might achieve this more elegantly, but I'll have to think about that a bit more.

 

PM me. I think I have a way to make the buffering sound happen after the movement starts and before it stops.

Hello Paul

is it possible for you to walk me through the procedure of setting up the waltz on my zimo sound decoders please

as i am not getting any where at all i have ended up resetting them all after me doing things wrong

i have tried to follow the zimo manual but it must be me been thick and not getting it right 

any help please