N gauge Streamlined Great Western Railcar (Kickstarter)

[Miss Prism]

My guess is that the appearance of being painted over is a trick of the light.

 

Agreed, in respect of the loo window.

[Karhedron]

Bit of an strange prototype to choose in many ways, but I guess exotic rules these days. If the project succeeds, there could be a lot of N gauge branch lines suddenly acquiring an express buffet service...

In a large part this is due to the fact it is easier to laser-scan a preserved example than work from drawings. The express buffet cars wandered away from their intended Birmingham - Cardiff route fairly quickly as they were victims of their own success. The improved service raised passenger numbers to the extent that a single railcar no longer sufficed. Here is a shot of W3W at Oxford in BR days.

 

https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/image.htm?img=CUL3604&jpg=CUL/CUL3604.jpg&srch=&page=

 

I have a larger version (cannot post due to copyright) but the buffet window is painted and the toilet frosted as per No 4.

[Karhedron]

Here is a little puzzler. I have been looking again at No 2 and the buffet window. It appears clear but I am not actually sure if it is. Look closely at the reflections in these 2 shots and you cannot see the sky reflected as you can with the other windows. I think that the buffet window was never clear but that it was painted black rather than cream when new.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt343.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls876.htm

[rembrow]

Hi Wollastonblue

 

From reference I've seen, the railcars in the 5-16 series operated on the Bristol to Weymouth service in the mid to late 1930's in GWR days. By BR nationalisation, it was the later style Park Royal bodied railcars, including the 2 car variant (the Hornby ex Lima model type) that were used on this service. Certainly the shed allocation list I've seen shows that no early type Railcar was shedded at Weymouth in 1947 at nationalisation, with 5 later style Park Royal type being shedded at Taunton, presumably for the Weymouth service, later moved to Bristol Bath Road.

[Miss Prism]

In a large part this is due to the fact it is easier to laser-scan a preserved example than work from drawings.

Hmmm. I was always somewhat sceptical about the hype concerning laser scanning, and there have been any number of examples showing how error-prone it can be. An intelligent application of drawings and scanning is perhaps preferable, with the stress being on intelligent. Still, that's arguably offtopic here.

 

Interesting point about the vehicles being the victim of their own success, but it seems the buffets were never formally decommissioned, so perhaps they were open only on demand when the units got onto less prestigious duties.

 

I'm warming to your black buffet window notion, but I suspect it could have become a bit of a heat trap.

 

 

[richbrummitt]

If you want more than one Railcar you can simply pledge multiples of £115. A couple of supporters have already done this.

 

I gathered that since when I looked the total was greater than the product of £115 and the number of pledgers. Strictly speaking what you suggest would only entitle the backer to just one reward according to kickstarter's FAQs. It's academic now but it might have made more sense to have different pledges for the different liveries variations rather than one pledge - something to consider for your next venture maybe?

 

I don't need a railcar but I might buy one anyway because they look nice, I'd like to support the project and at rule one can always apply! 

 

One question: How likely is the March 2016 delivery to be on time/early/late? 

[The Stationmaster]

Hmmm. I was always somewhat sceptical about the hype concerning laser scanning, and there have been any number of examples showing how error-prone it can be. An intelligent application of drawings and scanning is perhaps preferable, with the stress being on intelligent. Still, that's arguably offtopic here.

 

 

I understand from those who know that the laser scanning bit is relatively straightforward provided it picks up the right information.  The skilled part of the process is translating the data collected by the scanner into the right information for producing an accurate computer image for the CADs and subsequent metal cutting.   In effect it sounds like a very sophisticated version of 'join the dots' with the need for a lot of interpretational skill to make sure you join them in the right way.

[Karhedron]

One question: How likely is the March 2016 delivery to be on time/early/late?

The March 2016 gives roughly 18 months for design, development, manufacture and shipping as this is what Dave felt was realistic. It could be a few months either side depending on how smoothly everything goes.

 

If I knew at this stage what problems or pitfalls we would run into then I would plan to avoid them.

[Karhedron]

I understand from those who know that the laser scanning bit is relatively straightforward provided it picks up the right information. The skilled part of the process is translating the data collected by the scanner into the right information for producing an accurate computer image for the CADs and subsequent metal cutting. In effect it sounds like a very sophisticated version of 'join the dots' with the need for a lot of interpretational skill to make sure you join them in the right way.

You are absolutely right. The scan itself produces a cloud of data points which must be interpolated to produce the CAD. This has to be done taking into account the mechanical limitations of the tooling and molding processes as well as of the material itself. There is no point in producing a perfect CAD which cannot make a usable model.

 

Scanning is a powerful tool but it is not point and click. Like all tools, it needs to be used intelligently to get good results.

 

A good example of laser scanning being done well is the recent Western. Dave put the CADs up here on RMWeb for us to inspect which allowed a few anomalies which had crept in to be identified and fixed. The result is one of the most accurate models to date.

[Miss Prism]

If I knew at this stage what problems or pitfalls we would run into then I would plan to avoid them.

 

Suggest check the bogie yaw clearance inside the valence.

[-missy-]

Suggest check the bogie yaw clearance inside the valence.

 

Hi.

 

I must admit I am looking forward to seeing how this is done. FYI mine just about manages 36" radius curves and that's without valances fitted. To get one to negotiate 9" radius curves with valances fitted without compromising the appearance is going to be nothing short of amazing!

 

Julia

[Tricky-CRS]

I hope or suspect that 9inch radius will be without valances.

[Roy L S]

Matt's post (No. 9) explains I think.

 

If valances are fitted no bogie side-frames are, but if without valances (bogies exposed) side-frames are provided for buyer to fit.

 

In the case of the first I wouldn't care to speculate whether clearance would suffice for 9 inch curves, in the case of the second, I can't see any reason why not?

 

Roy

[Karhedron]

I'm warming to your black buffet window notion, but I suspect it could have become a bit of a heat trap.

I have checked my volumes of both Russell and Judge and the buffet windows were always blocked off on both sides from new in all of 2-4. There are cupboards behind those windows that were part of the original design.

 

The external finish however changed at some point in GWR days. As new, those windows were a different colour from the bodysides. The photos of No 2 above suggest that they might have been painted black but it is difficult to tell. By the end of WW2, these windows had been painted to match the cream of the bodyside. There is a shot of No 3 in post-war livery with the buffet windows in cream in Russell.

 

I do not have a date for the change. I know that the buffet areas in cars 2-4 were updated in 1938 so I would hazard a guess that the change was made at this time. However with photos being scarce for most of WW2, it may be hard to prove for certain.

[-missy-]

I can't see any reason why not?

 

On pages 136 and 137 in J Russels book on railcars it shows an early one without side valances and it looks to me like the bogie sideframes extend well beyond the valance cutouts. Exactly the places where you dont want the extra width. Its exactly the same problem I have with mine and I had the advantage of finer profiled wheels too.

 

Good luck with it though.

 

Julia.

[Roy L S]

Hi Julia

 

I can now see what you mean from the picture of the bogie without sideframe on the Kickstarter page, part of it is still concealed behind the remaining part of the valance.

 

I guess for it to negotiate 9inch radius curves (really a necessity for RTR N Gauge) there is going to need to be some kind of compromise (or very creative solution) in that area.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[BernardTPM]

Fortunately modern N gauge wheels aren't quite the steamroller width they used to be. Nonetheless both the thickness of the sideframes (particularly at the outer edges) and the clearance between them and the wheel faces are going to have to be as close as practical to gain the necessary clearance (given that the edges move in an arc so are effectively closer in when the bogie turns - again the shortness of the bogie helps). Some chamfering from behind of the skirts would also help.

[DJM Dave]

That sounds dirty Bernard! Lol

[richbrummitt]

Final questions (I promise):

 

1. How many models can you make from the tooling you plan to use? I see that you require 1,000 orders to make the project viable. 

2. How likely is a second run or continued production likely to be?

[DJM Dave]

Final questions (I promise):

 

1. How many models can you make from the tooling you plan to use? I see that you require 1,000 orders to make the project viable. 

2. How likely is a second run or continued production likely to be?

I think the answer there, is Matthew needs to reach the 1000 units first.

If that happens, then the tooling will become mine and I would probably re-run at a later date ( say 12 months or so)

But not necessarily the same numbers /livery permutations

 

Cheers

Dave

[Karhedron]

The project has a big announcement in this month's issue of Model Rail.

 

A big thanks to Richard Foster at Model Rail for the support.

[Jon Harbour]

Tried hard to resist but in the end that proved futile. One more backer signed up...

[Karhedron]

Tried hard to resist but in the end that proved futile. One more backer signed up...

Thanks very much, welcome on board.

[TomJ]

I'm in two mnds about this if in honest. It's a lovely prototype and one I would like for my layout - although it's far from 'essential'. If I saw one at a show or my local shop I'd probably buy one.

 

My concern is with the kick starter funding and specifically the use of a new company. I hope DjMDave doesn't take this the wrong way - it's not mean to be a criticism. But DJM haven't yet produced a single model in any scale for me to review or compare to see how they are. I know he did some great work at Dapol but I don't follow the ins and outs and politics of the model train manufacturers so I don't know how much was him and how much was Dapol. So it seems a bit of a gamble committing funds to an as yet unknown company. If DJM had already made some other models id be a lot more confident sending off the money.

 

Secondly DJM seem to have a lot of projects on the go, both their own and commissions. I know how delayed a lot of other companies models are and I worry the same will happen to DJM or that this will be at the back of a kind queue. I don't want to shell out a lot of money now for no model for several years.

 

This isn't meant as a dig - it's my concerns and me trying to weigh up whether to order one. So here's the challenge - go on convince me and reassure me on my worries!

[Karhedron]

This isn't meant as a dig - it's my concerns and me trying to weigh up whether to order one. So here's the challenge - go on convince me and reassure me on my worries!

That's OK, your concerns are valid and I am sure, you are not the only person who is thinking along those lines. DJ Models is a new outfit and Kickstarter is a new funding model. I would be cautious about parting with my cash too without further info so I will do my best to reassure.

 

 

My concern is with the kick starter funding and specifically the use of a new company. I hope DjMDave doesn't take this the wrong way - it's not mean to be a criticism. But DJM haven't yet produced a single model in any scale for me to review or compare to see how they are.

DJ Models have not released a finished model yet but the EP for Kernow's O2 has been produced and has received favourable feedback.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33331-kernow-adams-o2/?p=1498598

 

It is telling that both Kernow and now Hattons have commisioned models with Dave since the establishment of DJ Models. If large and wellknown retailers like these are prepared to trust Dave then I think that is a good endorsement.

 

I believe Dave is planning to have EPs of his first N gauge model available for inspection fairly soon.

 

I know he did some great work at Dapol but I don't follow the ins and outs and politics of the model train manufacturers so I don't know how much was him and how much was Dapol.

Dave has always been very open in his communication with his customers. I think that most if the improvements in the Dapol line were down to his input. If you look at the final models he produced there such as the class 22 and Westerns, they are amonth the best N gauge models available. Take a look at these threads detailing the design process Dave take us through.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33639-Dapol-western/

 

 

Secondly DJM seem to have a lot of projects on the go, both their own and commissions. I know how delayed a lot of other companies models are and I worry the same will happen to DJM or that this will be at the back of a kind queue. I don't want to shell out a lot of money now for no model for several years.

That is fair enough, after all, I want the models too.

 

I have discussed this with Dave. He has spent a long time building up manufacturing contacts in the far-east and he is confident that they have the production capacity available to make this models as well as the ones he already has in his pipeline. Without going into too many details, the contract I have drawn up with Dave includes expected dates for various project milestones (CADs, EPs, livery samples, final delivery).

 

Also, the payments are staged accordingly. Dave is happy with this arrangement and it is good all round as it means he will want to complete the project in a timely manner.

 

I admit nothing can absolutely guarantee that everything will run like clockwork as there are always unknown factors that can arise. However I am confident that Dave and his suppliers have the capability to deliver. I am also confident that a fairly written contract will ensure it is in everyone's interest to complete the project in a timely fashion.

 

I hope that all this goes some way to addressing your concerns.