Diagram 210 Twinart - Is this the longest Work-in-Progress ever?

[Clem]

I start this topic with a certain amount of guilt that it's taken me so long to be approaching finishing this project. It was 1992 (or was it 1993) that I first started this particular project. But I'll come on to that later.  

 

First of all,  I should give a bit of a background about the Diagram 210 twin articulated sets. By the mid-thirties, the need for new coaching stock for the LNER in Lincolnshire and the East Midlands was pressing and in order to at least part fill this need Gresley designed 39 55'6" articulated twins in the years 1936 and 1937. Similar, but differently laid out sets of Diagram 213 and 214 were produced for the GC Marylebone suburban services. As I'm intending modelling the ex-GN line from Nottingham to Derby, several of the Diagram 210 sets would be desirable. I can vaguely remember them as a boy but they had all been withdrawn by the time I was ten. When the DMUs started taking over from 1957/8 onwards it was the class 114s that seemed to be almost a direct replacement in terms of their geographical footprint.

In terms of suitability, here was a non-vestibuled design which had access from 4 of the 13 compartments to a WC (2 from first and 2 from third class) thus being ideal for the cross-country and rural services they were designed for. In terms of formations, on the Grantham-Nottingham-Derby line they were often used in pairs, back to back with the two brake ends facing outwards and with an extra lavatory composite (diagram 50) tagged on at the start or end. But they were used singularly on other lines most notably the Leicester (Belgrave Road)-Grantham service which mostly consisted of a J6 and a twinset only - some of the services running under express headlights. Many of the sets were based at Lincoln for the rural services and certainly early on in LNER days they were used on outer suburban services eminating from Kings Cross. 

 

I've always found them to be a very attractive subject but with none presevered and the number of photos of them at a premium it has been a bit of an uphill struggle to accurately model one of these twinsets as what photographic evidence I have obtained, shows that in many details they differed from the Isinglass drawings available, although the general layout of windows and panelling is correct.

 

On to the model: In the early 1990s I was living in Ipswich and had started building a P4 model of a represention of Awsworth Junction in Nottinghamshire and it was at this time the model was conceived. I should say here that I already had had one attempt in the early 1980s when modelling in OO to build one of these sets from two Grafar LMS coaches, and the idea of building a much more accurate version possibly with the use of Ian Kirk kits came to me. Sure enough, I discovered that using a full third, a full first and a brake third - all non-vestibule kits - the sides could be pretty accurately made up. This was succesfully achieved  and using the coach compensation units from the scalefour society the twin set in a very bare-bones condition (unpainted, no compartments or seats inside no roof vents etc. etc.) was running in P4 on the layout. A move to Nottingham spelt the end of the P4 layout and a lack of time and speed of modelling on my part lead to a decision to change to EM for any new layout. This decision was made as for me, it was the perfect compromise - I could convert stock much faster as not everything need to be sprung or compensated and I've always aspired to having a large-ish layout. (I still spring or compensate my locos though). Work and family pretty well kept me clear of modelling in earnest until the early 2000s. Just when things were looking rosy for the twinset I got hit by marital problems and it wasn't until 2010 that I could start modelling in earnest again. Over the last 3 years I've been working on a new EM layout (still based on the ex-GN line between Nottingham and Derby) and earlier on this year the part-finished twinset was converted from P4 to EM and from July I have been working again on the twinset towards completion.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find modelling coaching stock easy - there seems to be endless tasks - most of them very tedious - involved in producing a detailed model ..... and then there's the glazing!! Anyway, I've rambled on enough now so I'll post two or three pictures to illustrate where I'm now up to. 

Tasks remaining include:

1. Finishing off end detail and painting

2. Fitting guards grab-handles and roof grab-handles

3. Fitting the full-length wooden running boards and painting

4. The small task of fitting 96 windows (sigh!)

5. Weathering

 

The two whitened out lavatory windows that show on each side of the composite coach which to a large degree gives these sets their most obvious feature won't, of course, be evident until the glazing is completed.

 

If anyone out there has any good detail pictures of these sets, I would love to see them. Unfortunately all the photos I have of them show them behind an engine in three-quarter pose. If anyone is interested, I can probably dig out the method of building the set - I remember logging it down when I first did it and I have got photos that show the method fairly clearly.

 

Well - I hope to follow this up with a bit more progress over the next few days. I would be very interested in any comments, advice etc.

 

Best wishes

 

Clem

Edited September 11, 2014 by Clem

[Clem]

A little bit of progress to report here. I've added the full length solebar step-boards on each side. Very tricky to get them straight an to line them up with the twin coach. I used evergreen plastic strip no. 8210 which is a HO scale dimension - By trail and error and in comparison with the photos that I have, it was the size that looked correct to my eye. (0.56 x 2.84mm). The guards grab-handles now need to be fitted and the ends need finishing and then some airbrushing required.  The dreaded glazing approaches!

[royaloak]

That looks rather nice, why does 'life' always get in the way of modelling?

[jwealleans]

Where in the selection of donors you mention did you get the lav windows?

 

I have looked at doing a similar set for Grantham but it won't be soon.

[Clem]

That looks rather nice, why does 'life' always get in the way of modelling?

Ha ha - so true! Given that modelling reflects life, I suppose we can't complain too much. We're all pretty lucky to have something so creative and absorbing to fall back on in times of stress. - Thanks also, for the kind comment!

[Clem]

 

Where in the selection of donors you mention did you get the lav windows?

I have looked at doing a similar set for Grantham but it won't be soon.

The lavatory windows are made up from 2 halves of a first class compartment window. The accompanying (rather unforgiving close-up) picture illustrates this, showing fairly clearly where the cut and shut has taken place. From the left of the picture, the first joint is between the window and the panels and the second joint is half way along the lavatory window.

 

The compostite coach is therefore made up of (in order):

 - 3 third class compartments (cut at the end of the far appartment window of the third appartment

 - a short section of first class including 2 panels and half (4.15mm 's worth) a compartment window

 - 2 full first class compartments and a short part of the adjacent compartment each side (again 4.15mm's worth)

 - another short section of first class including 2 panels and half (4.15mm 's worth) a compartment window 

 - 2 third class compartments cut at the near end of the first window of the third class compartments

 

At normal viewing distance, once the roof is attached,  the eye is pretty well completely fooled and the 'cut and shut's are nigh undiscernible. - Hope this helps. As stated in the first post, the entire set can be made from 3 Ian Kirk kits - a full first, a full third and a brake third. I find you have to pay around with the ends, adding a new buffer beam, to get the correct height of buffer beam and I've fitted MJT LNER roofs. The compartments and seats are, if I remember right, Cooper Craft. The bogies are scalefour society coach compensation units with thinned down Comet Gresley bogies attached cosmetically for the outer two bogies and an MJT heavy duty cosmetic bogie attached to the CCU for the central bogie. 

The composite coach is attached to 2 bogies and the brake third is attached to on and sits on the joint bogie in a way so that it can tilt either way so its level is defined by the old three point principal defined by its fixed bogie (2 points) and the tilting mount (1 point). Anyway, aside from all this technical stuff, it rides well and gets around curves as tight as 3 foot - not bad for EM. 

 

As you can see from the photos, a fair amount of finishing and tidying up will be required  once the remaining detail is completed.

 

The above is illustrated with the further accompanying photos.

 

If you need any more information, let me know. 

 

Cheers

 

Clem

 

[Clem]

A little more progress to report on the twin-set. Detail has been added to the Brake Third end. Similar details still need to be applied to the composite end. After that just painting and glazing remains. Hope to finish soon now. - It's dragged on far too long! 

 

I've started using the iphone to photo - very good but it's also very unforgiving! But I think it'll be fine after a little bit of cleaning up and painting!

 

 

Very good to see and say hello to many familar faces, put faces to names and to meet some new people on Saturday at the EMGS exhibition in Manchester. Also enjoyed the excellent layouts and demonstrations.

 

 

Best Wishes

 

Clem

[Clem]

Well - at last the 55'6" twin set is complete. Here are a few photos although I hope to add a few more later with them in a railway setting. The glazing wasn't so bad - it's one of those tasks where you have the radio on as background and you just keep chiselling away till you've done them all. The lavatory windows were put together with white plasticard behind clear glazing, the the top opening vents made separately in a similar fashion but with 0.4mm styrene rod providing a surround. It's been a project that has been hanging around my neck for years and now it's done, I hope to follow up with a couple more....   but not 'til next year at least !!!

 

Anyway, although it's not perfect, I feel that it captures the essence of one of these sets.

 

Best Wishes

 

Clem

 

 

[dibateg]

Nice work Clem -

I see we are modelling the same line, which is interesting as it is a rather forgotten piece of history and I'm not aware of any previous layouts depicting it. I'm intend to build a representation of Basford North in 7mm scale for the 1962 era, and although I have been building stock for a long time, the layout itself has not started yet - maybe next spring if I can get the railway room extended as planned. The Derby Line thread might be a clue!

I look forward to seeing further reports.

 

Regards

Tony

[Clem]

Nice work Clem -

I see we are modelling the same line, which is interesting as it is a rather forgotten piece of history and I'm not aware of any previous layouts depicting it. I'm intend to build a representation of Basford North in 7mm scale for the 1962 era, and although I have been building stock for a long time, the layout itself has not started yet - maybe next spring if I can get the railway room extended as planned. The Derby Line thread might be a clue!

I look forward to seeing further reports.

 

Regards

Tony

Thanks for kind comments Tony. The Nottingham - Derby line has always been my favourite as I grew up at Nuthall and my grandparents lived just West of Kimberley in full view of Awsworth Junction. And yes, I remember Basford North very well. I used to catch the train at Kimberley with my grandmother and siblings and well remember the train, often hauled by a J6, racing down the bank towards Basford. The driver always gave it some and it always seemed that it wouldn't stop in time. 1962 was the year of the L1s - their numbers had been gradually building from 1955 and more significantly from 1960. And then 1963 came and they were all gone! My brother went to Henry Mellish Grammar school and often went up to Basford North station with his schoolmates who caught the 4-17pm to Nottingham Victoria via Daybrook from the bay platform. But that finished in April 1960 when Mapperley tunnel closed. However, you're wrong about one thing - the line has been modelled in OO. Ilkeston Model Railway Soc did a very good rendition of Kimberley (beat me to it!!) so my layout will be a fictional combination of West Hallam and Kimberley in the way it is laid out. I've not got a name for it yet, but I'm working on the principle that the line may have built  a little North of Awsworth instead of its actual track formation. Was thinking of calling it Giltbrook.... 

Anyway, I shall keep a close eye on your progress on the Derby Line thread. 7mm is a lovely scale - it's just finding the space for it!

 

Best Wishes

 

Clem

[dibateg]

Thanks Clem -

If you come across any photos of Basford North buildings or goods yard let me know! I visited last week and only found the Park Lane bridge and the Northern Baths

 

I thought of doing West Hallam, but decided on Basford North as there is more operational interest.

 

Cheers

Tony

[Horsetan]

I start this topic with a certain amount of guilt that it's taken me so long to be approaching finishing this project. It was 1992 (or was it 1993) that I first started this particular project. .....

I can top that. I've had a DJH BR Std.5 half-completed since 1991....

[farren]

A Horsetan fast track project then

[farren]

I do like you're modelling topics clem not only do we get frist rate modelling but a comprehensive history lesson to boot.

[Horsetan]

A Horsetan fast track project then

Something like that.

[Clem]

Thanks Clem -

If you come across any photos of Basford North buildings or goods yard let me know! I visited last week and only found the Park Lane bridge and the Northern Baths

 

I thought of doing West Hallam, but decided on Basford North as there is more operational interest.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

I've got many photos of the line, Tony. Basford is more operationally interesting before April 1960, as all three arms on the up junction signal are operational for through traffic. After then all the colwick freight went via Nottingham Victoria and the right most signal, for the back line effectively became a signal for a long siding leading only to Leen Valley Junction and Daybrook. The same applies to the 2 arm junction signal in the bay platform. I have quite a few photos of Basford North that I've collected but as I'm not sure of copyright I can't reproduce them here. Most have been published in books though, (e.g. East Midlands Branch Line Album - Lambert and Alf Henshaw's great set of 4 volumes on the GNR in the East Midlands published by the RCTS). However, there's no problem with the two I've attached which I took in 1978 of the goods shed. Not the greatest pictures but they may help in the building of it.

 

 

 

 

 

I can top that. I've had a DJH BR Std.5 half-completed since 1991....

 

I knew someone would beat it! Can't really say well done though, can I? :-)

[Clem]

I do like you're modelling topics clem not only do we get frist rate modelling but a comprehensive history lesson to boot.

 

Ta for that - it's true, I'm a bit of a geek! (Mind you, not geek enough for some.....    my youngest daughter chided me for not using real glass for the twinset! - no pleasing some people!)

[dibateg]

Thanks for the photos Clem, I am hoping a friend will make the buildings for me. I found some great aerial photos on www.britainfromabove.org.UK

 

Regards

Tony

[PGC]

Hi Clem

 

Lovely modelling - I am in the process of finishing an all third set. You don't say what material you used for the glazing nor how you did it. Reading between the lines of what you have written, I suspect you cut every window rather than a single strip of glazing material behind the windows, is there a chance you could expand?

 

Not trying to top the list of models that have taken a long time to complete - about 1980 I asked a friend, who specialised in modelling buses, if he would build a Brackenborough bus kit for me. About 5 years ago the kit was returned to me and is still in the same state I gave it to him almost 35 years ago! One day I may get to finish it, but it'snot on my list of priorities.

 

Phil

[Clem]

Thanks for the photos Clem, I am hoping a friend will make the buildings for me. I found some great aerial photos on www.britainfromabove.org.UK

 

Regards

Tony

 No problems Tony. Look forward to seeing progress.  I'll check out the aerial photos.  Do you have drawings for the buildings?

 

regards Clem

 

 

Hi Clem

 

Lovely modelling - I am in the process of finishing an all third set. You don't say what material you used for the glazing nor how you did it. Reading between the lines of what you have written, I suspect you cut every window rather than a single strip of glazing material behind the windows, is there a chance you could expand?

 

Not trying to top the list of models that have taken a long time to complete - about 1980 I asked a friend, who specialised in modelling buses, if he would build a Brackenborough bus kit for me. About 5 years ago the kit was returned to me and is still in the same state I gave it to him almost 35 years ago! One day I may get to finish it, but it'snot on my list of priorities.

 

Phil

 

Hi Phil,

 

Happy to put a bit of meat on the bones here. Of course it would be much easier just to cement a strip of persex on the inside of coach side but to my eye,  the windows look way too far back in the in the frames.  However, the window mouldings of Ian Kirk coaches are actually quite helpful as they slightly reduce in both height and width from the outside to the inside. So it's possible to drop the perspex window in from the front so that it wedges in. If it's been cut to the optimum size then it drops in nice and true and straight. I use 0.25mm perspex. What makes the task much easier is a set of digital calipers. It's possible to accurately measure the windows. I then use the points of the calipers to lightly mark a the width of the window, before cutting a strip. I re-measure it to make sure it's been cut accurately and then, if acceptable, I mark the strip using the height measurement and cut out the separate windows one by one. Although the measurements of the windows vary slightly from window to window, I've found for example that for third class windows for non-gangwayed coaches if the perspex is cut to 4.4mm x 11.6mm it will fit snugly in most window mouldings. Once in place, using a fine paint brush, I carefully drift a drop of butatone from the inside on the bottom sill and watch it go round by capillary action. You have to very careful not to get any on the front or rear surfaces of the perspex otherwise it will irretrievably frost over. If the window twists, you can carefully correct it with a toothpick. I find the first couple of windows takes me absolutely ages to get right but you soon get into a bit of a rhythm. I've been considering trying  some of the liquid glazing stuff (I forget what it's called) to hold the windows in place - it could be a better option - but I've not got around to trying it yet. 

One final point: the door drop-lites do look fine with the perspex glued across the back of the opening as they were in reality set further back.

 

Sorry for being a bit wordy,  but I hope this helps. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your all third set when it's finished.

 

Best Wishes

 

Clem

[dibateg]

Hello Clem ,the only drawings I have are those of a station building in one of the books - I have all the publications you mentioned. I was thinking of joining the GN society to get further information. The other option would be to approach the owners of any of the extant buildings...

 

I do like the article sets, I designed the etches a good few years ago for the ones that Southern Pride sell/sold...

Regards

Tony

[Ian Kirk]

Hi Clem,

 

You must have the patience of Job to glaze your coaches this way. An excellent result when finished but cutting so many windows exactly right must be a soul destroying exercise. Nice to hear though that the taper on the windows- required as a draught angle to part off the component from the mould and criticised by some - was actually of use to you in this case.  In the 7mm versions that I still make the glazing is recessed from the back. You still have to cut out the glazing but not so accurately.  I have had nothing to do with the 4mm coaches for 20+ years which in some ways I regret as had they still been mine I would have tried to upgrade them in line with "modern" developments and this would undoubtedly have included recessing the glazing.  Having returned to 4mm for some of my personal modelling (don't tell the GOG) I find myself buying some of these back from e Bay which I then modify by milling out behind the windows (very slow speed very sharp cutter).

Nice to see some of my work from the distant past still being used so effectively in the present day.

 

best wishes,

 

 

Ian 

[david.hill64]

  I've been considering trying  some of the liquid glazing stuff (I forget what it's called) to hold the windows in place - it could be a better option - but I've not got around to trying it yet. 

 

I used canopy glue for the first time recently and wouldn't use anything else now. Really good stuff and fills in any small gaps between glazing and frame.

[Clem]

Hi Clem,

 

You must have the patience of Job to glaze your coaches this way. An excellent result when finished but cutting so many windows exactly right must be a soul destroying exercise. Nice to hear though that the taper on the windows- required as a draught angle to part off the component from the mould and criticised by some - was actually of use to you in this case.  In the 7mm versions that I still make the glazing is recessed from the back. You still have to cut out the glazing but not so accurately.  I have had nothing to do with the 4mm coaches for 20+ years which in some ways I regret as had they still been mine I would have tried to upgrade them in line with "modern" developments and this would undoubtedly have included recessing the glazing.  Having returned to 4mm for some of my personal modelling (don't tell the GOG) I find myself buying some of these back from e Bay which I then modify by milling out behind the windows (very slow speed very sharp cutter).

Nice to see some of my work from the distant past still being used so effectively in the present day.

 

best wishes,

 

 

Ian 

Hi Ian,

It's really good to have some correspondence from you, the original creator of these iconic kits. I must say 'hats off to you' for producing these kits. They gave real hope to LNER modellers at a time when not much else was available!  Although, the kits as you say, are a bit dated now 40 years on, I very much agree with you that they can still produce very realistic models. Most important is the basic shape of the sides and although the depth of the panelling and beading is a little overscale, they do capture the essence of Gresley coaches. When I started serious modelling in 1980, your first batch of Gresley coaches in 4mm had come and gone and for a little while, before another batch of coaches were produced in the early-mid 80s, they were like hens teeth. As a result, my first attempt at a Diagram 210 was taking 2 Grafar coaches and cutting and adapting them. The result was almost acceptable and in fact I'm just tarting them up at the moment and I will publish a picture of them on here soon as a bit of a comparison/talking point. But as you will see, they do not quite capture that feel that your kits can produce. Next year when I attempt a third set, I think I'll try your trick of milling from the back with slow speed cutter. The major thing to watch out for, I suppose, is heat melting the plastic and clogging the cutter. I've also got a couple of your gangwayed coaches to finish next spring. They are up and running but unpainted and undetailed. - They'll get the glazing treatment too! The trick is to have something on the radio to take your mind off the tedium!

Finally - I have to tell you that over the years I have built up such a stock of your kits that there is probably little chance I'll build more than half of them - and even then I'd need to live to be 100!

 

Really good to have your kind feedback, Ian, Thank you.

 

Cheers Clem

 

 

 

I used canopy glue for the first time recently and wouldn't use anything else now. Really good stuff and fills in any small gaps between glazing and frame.

Cheers David - I'll give it a go next time.

 

Clem

[Clem]

"And here's one I did earlier......"

I started getting into serious modelling in 1978 and commenced building a OO layout based as my present one, on the Nottingham-Derby GN line. A couple of years later I wanted to build one of the aforementioned Diagram 210 twin sets but although Ian Kirk kits had been available in years gone by, at this time, they were all sold and gone and were the stuff of legend.  LNER-based modellers had nothing but some Grafar coaches in a sandy brown or crimson, based on an LMS 57' non-gangwayed standard coach. No internet, no ebay and no Ian Kirk kits obtainable - what to do? Hornby then brought out some LNER corridor coaches which were too short for the 61' 6" coaches and two long for the GE based 52'6" stock - but I bought several anyway. So, what I decided to do was to convert the bodies of the Grafar coaches into the Gresley Diagram 210 using some of the bogies of the Hornby Gresleys. The coaches were hacked about - shorted from 57' scale to 55'6" and the exterior panelling was fabriacated using fablon self adhesive coverings. Anyway - back to this year -  Whilst completing the Ian Kirk based twin set above, out of curiosity I dug out the old Grafar based set and I've tarted it up a bit, giving it the correct Ian Kirk profile roofs and rearranged the toilet windows which when built weren't correct. (I didn't have any detailed photos or drawings when I first made them). So here they are. (below) .They are not as convincing as the Ian Kirk set (or as accurate) but I will be using the set at least until I manage to build a couple more of them to match the Ian Kirk set, hopefully next year.

I've included photos showing how the two twin sets sit beside each other as well as three photos from my old 1980s layout, none of which have ever been published before. Sadly the layout never got finished due to me going to University. I'm afraid it died when it was dismanted. But I still have quite a few items of rolling stock - some have been to P4 and back - well back to EM anyway.

 

The final photo shows the Grafar coaches in fablon before painting. The final 3 photos are all circa 1981. Interesting how times change. We don't know we're born these days!! Does it ring any bells out there?

 

Best Wishes

 

Clem