MOVING TO DCC

[Bala]

My friend is a pensioner and has just bought his first Engine a Bachmann G.W.R. 32-206-8750 Pannier Tank engine DCC ready.

 

He is now looking for a controller.

 

Being a pensioner I don't want him to waste money and I know nothing about DCC but keen to learn.  

 

I know that he will want to control about 5 locos and have sound.

 

All comments and suggestions most welcome.

 

 

[HLT 0109]

The first thing to realise is that a loco that is "DCC Ready" will not run with a DCC controller without the additional expense of a DCC decoder for the loco - about another £15+.  However, the loco will run as it is with a DC controller.  Locos ready to run "out of the box" on a DCC layout are referred to as "DCC Fitted".  "DCC Ready" means that there is a socket in the loco ready to take a decoder.  There is a lot on this forum on this topic, which a search should reveal.  If deciding to go DCC, it may be wise to choose a controller that can also output DC.  I have NCE PowerCab which cannot do this, but which I find excellent for DCC.

 

I hope this gives a start in the thinking progress for you and your friend.  It is difficult to make useful comment without more specific questions.

 

Harold.

[Barnaby]

Picking up on Harold's excellent advice I have a Lenz system only just fired it up but it works fine for me AND it does have 1 DC slot but most advice is not to control modern motored locos by it.

Here's a link to an Aussie site that has lots of other info well worth an explore.

 

Link::: http://www.dccconcepts.com/

 

Plenty of menus to follow.

 

Just spotted that they have just opened a new web server so there may be a few start up hic-ups but the old site was fantastic so hopefully this will be too.

[GoingUnderground]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with Harold. The ability to run a loco without a decoder, the so-called "loco 0" facility, is NOT a good idea. Whilst it does let you run a DC loco without a decoder on the layout, you run the risk of burning out the motor. This is because the DCC track is always live, and even after you bring the loco without a decoder to a halt, there is still current passing through the motor at the full DCC voltage. The only way to avoid this is either to remove the loco from the track as soon as you bring it to a halt, or stop it in a section of track that you can isolate from the DCC power. Nowadays reasonable decoders are relatively cheap and with so many locos now DCC ready, i.e. ready for you to fit you choice of decoder, there is no reason why you should need to run a loco without a decoder. The only thing that you have to look out for is that you get the right model of the decoder for the socket/interface on the DCC ready loco. 

[mezzoman253]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with Harold. The ability to run a loco without a decoder, the so-called "loco 0" facility, is NOT a good idea. Whilst it does let you run a DC loco without a decoder on the layout, you run the risk of burning out the motor. This is because the DC track is always live, and even after you bring the loco without a decoder to a halt, there is still current passing through the motor at the full DCC voltage. The only way to avoid this is either to remove the loco from the track as soon as you bring it to a halt, or stop it in a section of track that you can isolate from the DCC power. Nowadays reasonable decoders are relatively cheap and with so many locos now DCC ready, i.e. ready for you to fit you choice of decoder, there is no reason why you should need to run a loco without a decoder. The only thing that you have to look out for is that you get the right model of the decoder for the socket/interface on the DCC ready loco. 

Whilst all that is true IF you are using a DCC controller, you can run the loco "dcc ready" on a normal DC controller, with no adverse effects. That's what the blanking plug allows.

 

Rob

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Wide choice of DCC systems,with many different approaches to the control interface. Any chance of going to shows or a specialist retailer for some hands on try outs? I feel very strongly that getting one that is 'just right' for the taste of the operator is very significant for future enjoyment.

 

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with Harold. The ability to run a loco without a decoder, the so-called "loco 0" facility, is NOT a good idea. Whilst it does let you run a DC loco without a decoder on the layout, you run the risk of burning out the motor... 

Absolutely. I tried this facility just once when new to DCC, and in the loco selected for the 'Address 0' test a Mashima 1830 in a very free running drive train expired (in a large cloud of very realistic smoke) before the loco wheels had moved more than half a turn. The DCC system didn't miss a beat, the three decoder equipped locos that were running at the time just kept right on going.

[GoingUnderground]

I think that Rob has missed the point of my post. Harold was recommending a DCC controller with the "Loco 0" facility, and I was advising against using it if your DCC controller has it, most modern one's and almost all top end one's don't. 

 

All DCC Ready locos are simply conventional DC locos that have been fitted by the manufacturer with a socket or other interface to make fitting a decoder easy. They are, until you fit a decoder, just ordinary DC locos which will run on any DC layout. 

 

When it comes to running a decoder fitted loco on a DC layout most DCC decoders, bar a couple of exceptions, will run on DC without replacing the decoder with the blanking plug. For example, my locos fitted with Hornby R8215 and ESU Loksound V3.5 and V4 decoders run with my 50 year old Triang P6 controller, and H&M Duette without problems, but not my ZTC 255 decoders. I don't know if this still applies to the ZTC255 decoder as it is some time since I bought mine. Some, but not all, DCC factory fitted locos have the decoder hard wired anyway, so the option to replace the decoder with a blanking plug in such locos will not exist.

 

The only two things that you must look out for when running a loco with a decoder on a DC layout is to avoid layouts with a DC feedback type controller, and also avoid layouts fitted with a high frequency track cleaner, such as a Relco.

 

34 is so right about always trying a DCC controller before you buy.

[mezzoman253]

The first thing to realise is that a loco that is "DCC Ready" will not run with a DCC controller without the additional expense of a DCC decoder for the loco - about another £15+.  However, the loco will run as it is with a DC controller.  Locos ready to run "out of the box" on a DCC layout are referred to as "DCC Fitted".  "DCC Ready" means that there is a socket in the loco ready to take a decoder.  There is a lot on this forum on this topic, which a search should reveal.  If deciding to go DCC, it may be wise to choose a controller that can also output DC.  I have NCE PowerCab which cannot do this, but which I find excellent for DCC.

 

I hope this gives a start in the thinking progress for you and your friend.  It is difficult to make useful comment without more specific questions.

 

Harold.

Part of Harold's post he's said "However, the loco will run as it is with a DC controller" which is what I said, I also agreed it's not a good idea to run a "DCC ready" loco with a DCC controller, due to the aforementioned problems.

 

To be fair the inference in the OP was to go DCC, so the last point is valid, the other, re DC, just for info. That may have confused the issue.

 

If so, apologies.

 

Rob

[Phil S]

Just a reminder that 'directional lighting' is extremely unlikely to work correctly under 'loco 0' - ie an unfitted ('dcc ready') loco on a dcc ac waveform.

In the larger scales, LGB have ensured with lots of filtering etc some degree of 'compatibility' with loco 0 - as when they started going digital, very few others were!

However, even these make loud screaming noises from their motors when stationary!!

Due the the frequency of the dcc waveform, and the inductance of a (dc) motor, the current will NOT be the 'full' current that would occur with pure dc at that voltage

(at which the loco would be going full speed) ... BUT it IS still a current, which is causing heating in the motor - and by its nature as a static,loco, is doing nothing but heating that motor ...

with the risk that you leave it like that for minutes, or even hours!!! .... the consequences of which may well become meltdown.  It is one reason why manufacturers avoid supporting the option - it should only be considered as a 'last resort' quick test that a loco is picking up and able to turn its motor.    A 9V dc PP3 battery is a better and cheaper test !!

[Guest bri.s]

Hi Bala .

 

Some good advice above .

And as said your loco isn't DCC ready to run yet .

Did your friend get the loco from a shop or show ? If so go back and ask them what kind if things he'll need to start in DCC ,ask as many questions as possible , mabe get book there's plenty out there to read through ,it's what I did when I went DCC .

at first it's a bit daunting with all the different things with DCC but it is quite simple and well worth doing .

 

DCC chips can be from £15 to what ever you want to pay ,

sound ones are more exspencive .and there is a bit more work involed if your doing it yourself but that would keep the cost down

 

I don't and send my loco's off to a shop to be sound fitted which isn't cheap (I do model in n gauge though) there are plenty of shops that do offer the service .

Half decent controllers start at around£130 .to the top end ones are about £500

It all depends on what kind of controller your friend wants / likes most do very similar things obviously the more pricey the more bells and whistles it'll have (so to speak ) but there's no reason why one of the lower priced ones won't meet your friends needs as I said before it's all about personal preference

Go to a show or shop and try some of the different controllers out see which ones suit your friend , get a feel for how they work ask how they work ,there's plenty to choose from and something for everyone from the handheld /walkabout controllers to the sit on the bench controllers to ones that could control a spaceship lol

 

If you want to know about wiring a layout for DCC there's quite a few threads on here to have a read through and plenty of books but got to admit if I can do it anyone can lol its a lot simpler than traditional wiring of a layout

 

In the end test, tryout and ask questions

 

Brian

[HLT 0109]

Going Underground says I was recommending a DCC controller with the Loco 0 facility.  Actually I was not.  Perhaps what I was recommending does not exist - in which case my suggestion is not valid.  I was suggesting a controller with both a DCC output facility and a DC output facility.  At the back of my mind was something like the Hornby Elite but I don't think the DC output on that unit will control the speed of a loco as it is intended for accessories.

 

The inability for me to run a DC loco on my layout does cause a problem when I want to have a sound fitted loco as the advice is always to check a loco runs properly on DC before fitting a chip.  I know one can use a 9v battery connected to the rails to run a DC loco but it is a bit Heath Robinson and you cannot change the speed.  It got me into trouble with a supplier when a loco he supplied would not run properly after sound fitting, so it would be a useful facility for all DCC controllers to have.  Just a thought.

 

Harold.

 

Edited to remove a word.

[10000]

Bala, 

 

in previous posts is some good advice, but lets try and simplify it .

 

DCC Ready as stated means it is meant to run on DC but with easy ( if you can get into it) conversion to DCC.

 

DCC Fitted means it is ready to run on DCC

 

Never assume that a particular make of decoder will fit into all models. 

 

DCC Controllers lots of  manufacturers make them and you will get plenty of recommendations but my advice is to stay away from the Bachmann EZ command and the Hornby Select if he wants to do sound.

 

After that its down to how much you want to pay and which you like. 2 example are the  NCE Powercab  easy to use and not too expensive. Lenz very good but not as easy to get to grips with ( IMHO. I have both) and more expensive.

 

Do more research  and more questions before parting with money.

 

A good shop helps but be wary I've seen some try to sell what suits them not what is best for you.

[GoingUnderground]

Apologies to Harold, but when he referred to DC, I thought that he was referring to the Loco 0 facility. A DCC system that outputs conventional DC instead of DCC that you can control using the throttle is, AFAIK, a very rare beast indeed. The only DCC controller that I know of that has a proper DC mode controllable using the throttle is the now defunct ZTC511. I don't know if its forthcoming replacement the Taunton/ZTC611 will offer that facility.

 

Many DCC systems don't have auxiliary uncontrolled 12V DC or 16V AC outputs. So modellers who do not want the expense of using DCC Accessory decoders to operate their electrically operated points will probably keep their old DC controller just to provide power to operate the points.

 

So, if, like Harold, you want to operate your layout on conventional DC at times, there is a very simple, and cheap, answer. Keep your old DC controller, and when you want to use DC, unplug the inputs to the layout from the digital system and plug in the DC controller instead.

 

Some people fit a DPDT Centre Off switch so that they can use DCC or DC with a flick of a switch. The Centre Off position is advisable so that you can be certain that one system is disconnected before the other system is connected. The common terminals go to the layout, with the DCC system connected to one side of the switch, and the DC controller to the other side.

 

When using the DC controller, you will need to remove all other locos from the layout because DCC layouts are normally wired so that the entire layout is always live, all the locos on the layout will respond to the DC controller and together they will probably cause an overload.  If you just want to use part of the layout for test running, then you my have to fit additional switches in the feeds to the track, or if converting a conventional DC layout keep your existing section switches, so that you can switch off the power to specific parts of the layout to avoid having to remove all your locos when running on DC. 

 

NEVER have both the digital system and the DC controller connected to the layout at the same time, or you will cause severe and expensive damage to the digital system. Likewise, NEVER connect two digital systems to the same layout, or you will damage them both.

[Bala]

Well thank you all - lots of good advice and helpful tips which I will pass on to my friend. He will understand more than I do.

 

If I ask some stupid questions or make incorrect assumptions please put me right.

 

1. There is no way of making a slow transition from DC to DCC (i.e run both) because

     a.  the whole layout is live for DCC using a DC controller All locos would move.

     b. a DCC loco with a DC controller absorbs current even when stationary.

 

2.  Question - is it better to bight the bullet and go all DCC in one go.

 

3.  Can simple DC Hornby locos be converted to DCC or sell them?

 

4.  Choose a Controller first and then a DCC Chip for it. Not all are compatible.

 

5.  Not all chips work.sound modules or smoke generators - how do you know which ones do?

 

6.  What is Loco0?

 

I saw a lovely demo on Youtube which had locos with sound and steam - so realistic something for the wish list.

I guess each had a DCC motor + sound module + smoke generator.  DIY?

 

.  

[10000]

I'll try and answer some of your points 

 

1) Yes there is . My layout was wired for DC with isolating sections.  On this I can run non DCC fitted and DCC fitted.

When I want to run DCC I make sure non DCC fitted are parked in isolated sections or removed, then unplug the DC controllers and plug the DCC controller in

 

2) If starting from scratch I would say yes.

 

3) depends what you mean by simple. Even if they have no DCC socket many can be hardwired with a decoder.

 

4) Not completely true. You occasionally find a decoder that is not happy with a controller but not often . Buy the controller that you like and can afford. But buy decoders based on reguirements and the space in the loco, some need quite small decoders to fit in.

 

5) Majority of chips are non sound so you need to look for specific sound chips like the ones supplied by Howes, Olivia's etc. Most sound chips should have enough functions to allow smoke generators. But I suggest you look at Oliiva's pricing for that sort of stuff.  I think you may get a bit of a surprise.

 

6) Loco0 is  loco selection on some DCC controllers so you can run a not DCC fitted loco on it. My advice like many others is don't do that.

 

Finally DIY if you can do it or somewhere like Olivia's can do it for you.

[Barnaby]

Bala, Unless your name refers to a lake in Wales it might be useful to show where you live then we might be able to advise of a suitable DCC proprietor who will be able to help you.

 

Regards

[GoingUnderground]

To add to the above.

 

1 - A slow transition isn't really practicable. It could be done by keeping the layout DC but fitting decoders to locos as and when time permits as most decoders will run on DC without problems, but they may run a bit slower and will take longer to move off from rest. Then when you freel you have enough locos fitted with decoders you buy a DCC system and use that to power the layout and control the locos. you would need to make sure that you chose decoders tha tdid work with DC as a small minority do not.

 

2 - However, Big Bang is probably better. Just decide which locos you want to run on DCC anf fit decoders to those locos. You can add decoders to the other locos when time and money permits.

 

3 - All Triang/Triang Hornby and Hornby Railways locos can be converted. However Hornby Dublo locos are very difficult to convert and best avoided. The Triang XO4 motor and its derivatives are probably the easiest of all locos to convert. So don't bin them, keep them and fit decoders. Care is needed though to make sure that the motor brushes on the pancake style motors are completely isolated from the wheels and pickups.

 

4 - Yes, choose a controller first. You do not need to worry about loco decoders being compatible with your chosen controller. If both your controller and decoder are NMRA compliant then they should work together with no problems.

 

5 - A chip, or decoder, will normally just power the motor. If you want sound then you have to buy a sound decoder that provides the sound as well as power to the motor. There are very few add on sound only decoders and as these take up precious space inside the loco they are probably best avoided. Smoke units take a lot of power so may need special attention to get them to work without damaging one of the AUX(iliary) outputs on the decoder.

 

6 On DCC systems you select the loco that you want to run by its pre-programmed number, or address. Some DCC systems let you select 0 as the loco number and when selected they adjust the DCC output so that a loco without a decoder on the layout will respond to the throttle. This is known as "Loco 0". Don't let the availability of Loco 0 influence you in your choice of DCC controller as its use could ruin the loco.

[Crosland]

2.  Question - is it better to bight the bullet and go all DCC in one go.

 

.  

With only 5 locos and if funds allow, just go for it.

 

Otherwise, to spread the cost, you can keep the layout DC, fit decoders and run them on DC (sound effects will be limited) until you are finally ready for switchover.

 

Andrew

[Bala]

Thank you again guys

 

I have just been sent an email from my friend that he has bought on Ebay a Hornby 8213 DCC controller converted by Hornby to a 8214

 

Any thoughts or info please

 

ps - My friend and I live in Swindon but I am sunning myself in Lanzarote at the moment

[smokebox]

It's not possible to convert a R8213 to an R8214. (assuming you mean R8213 and R8214)

 

The R8213 is the basic Select controller.  The R8214 is the far superior Elite controller.

 

Do you mean that the Select (R8213) has had it's firmware upgraded to V1.4 maybe?

[Barnaby]

Thanks for your home area location Bala I'm a bit further north so can't help you with anything more local for Swindon but others may be able to suggest some.

 

Ones I have used are >>> are http://www.dccsupplies.com/ -- http://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/lenz-control-and-transformers-183-c.asp -- http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ All these are happy to discuss but I found digitrain the most helpful.

 

I'm a bit concerned that while you are asking for advice your friend is rushing off buying things.

SPEND IN HASTE REGRET AT LEISURE.

There are other dcc suppliers the ones I have mentioned are just the few I have dealt with.

 

Regards

[Ron Ron Ron]

....I have just been sent an email from my friend that he has bought on Ebay a Hornby 8213 DCC controller converted by Hornby to a 8214

 

Any thoughts or info please

 

 

Apart from what has been said already, that's a bad move IMHO and your friend may not be getting the best of introductions to DCC.

 

 

.