Loxborough; a layout with signalling

[Loxborough]

Well, I have put so many questions on this forum, and got so many excellent answers, that I figured it is time for payback. So, a thread covering what I am actually building.

 

Loxborough is a station on part of a big roundy-roundy which I am building (a 15 year project, I reckon), the first section of which has appeared (sporadically) as Meakin Brothers in the layout forum. I thought that, as the signalling for the station is going to be quite involved, I would start a separate thread here on that subject.

 

The situation; basically, I have a fair amount of delicate scratchbuilt stock and two daughters (7 and 9) who love playing with Daddy's trains. Hmmm... The solution, I thought, was a signalling system which would allow them to play trains but would (as far as possible) stop (at least the more catastrophic)  collisions. So, route seeting signals, a physically interlocked lever frame and block management. Keep it simple, stupid? Nah!!

 

Firstly the basic layout. This has already appeared on this forum and, as often happens, descended very quickly into a simmerngly acrimonious debate. The signalling is, I believe, basically OK; if any one sees any howlers then I would welcome PMs but could we please avoid ths thread turning into another signalling light sabres/slanging match?

 

So the layout, with the lever designations;

 

 

A brief study will show what I mean by route setting signals; the black levers control turnouts in the yards directly but all others control the signals to which they refer and the turnouts along the route. Throwing lever 8, therefore, sets the ground signal to off but also reverses the turnouts all across the main lines, clearing the route for trains to set back from the down slow onto the up slow (ready for 8 to be set on and 24 to be pulled off, allowing the train to pull into the yard.

 

"What?" I hear you gasp. "Reverses turnouts all across the main lines? With small girls operating the layout?" Ah, well that is where the physical interlocking comes on. But I will save that for the next episode.

 

To entertain and inform...

 

 

[Loxborough]

So, lots of talk about physical interlocking. What and how?

 

What is quite basic (and well understood by pretty much anyone looking at this forum, I would have thought); a physical lock preventing conflicting moves. So, to go back to the example above, if lever 8 is pulled off, allowing a train on the down slow to set back all across the running lines to the up slow then 6, 7, 10-17, 19-24 are all locked in the on position to prevent other trains charging into the one that is moving. Similarly, 8 can not be pulled off if any of those levers is already off. 

 

How? Ah, that's the important bit. I have used the excellent Modratec product. They have an easy to use piece of software which allows you to draw your layout and set the interlocking. You then send the resulting file to them with (quite a lot of) money and the send you a pile of bits of brass and a link to some specific instructions for your design. Actually, they have already done a good deal of work on the brass when they send it, and construction is a pleasure rather than a chore.

 

There are some reviews and comments on line which mention the tremendous number of holes to be drilled and tapped etc; they seem to have taken note of this and a they now do the vast majority of the drilling for you. There is still a bit of filing, which has to be pretty accurate, but the result is great.

 

The front end (please do not look too closely at the diagram; this is an interim measure...) Also, I will, in due course, make up a pretty wooden base for it, but my thicknesser is out of action at the moment...

 

 

The clever stuff Inside which does the interlocking (the notches in the flat are the things you have to file; you can see why it has to be done right!)

 

 

And the electrics coming out of the back (long way from complete...)

 

 

And there it is; levers which set signals and routes, and a fancy frame which prevents conflicting routes being set. Clever, eh?

[micknich2003]

Part of a model locking frame I made over twenty years ago. The tappets are 1/4in wide, and the locks cut from 1/16in strip, and riveted to the bridle with 1/32in wire.

[LNER4479]

I've just finished putting together a 36 lever Modratec frame for my Dad's layout - good fun, aren't they? This pic shows work in progress at an earlier stage - and this one's totally mechanical, ie connections to points and signals are all mechanical (advantage of a permanent layout!)

 

 

Look forward to seeing yours develop with your layout.

[Loxborough]

LOCKING FRAME 5.JPG

Part of a model locking frame I made over twenty years ago. The tappets are 1/4in wide, and the locks cut from 1/16in strip, and riveted to the bridle with 1/32in wire.

 

That's a beautiful piece of work, and really shows up my "RTR" version for what it is!

[micknich2003]

Loxbrogh, thanks for your kind words, attached and for your interest, the Locking Table and Chart.

 

[Ken Anderson]

Blooming clever.

[salmonpastures]

Loxborough,,,, and MickNick,,,,

Wonderful,,, you will both become very popular with the "Wot NO Signals Mafia" with work like this,,, I wouldn't know where to start with what you both call pretty basic.

I have a couple of Ratio LNER lattice signal and always find something more interesting to do rather than get them working.

Would love to see pics of it when it's all up and running.

 

SAD

[Loxborough]

OK, so we have signals which interlock and send trains down specified routes without the need to set points manually. How does this stop my 7 year old driving trains into each other? The answer is that it doesn't, so we have to introduce the third element, which I regard as the really clever bit... And I can say that because the cleverness is not mine, it is down to those wonderful prople at Lenz.

 

They have a DCC block management system which is very nicely explained here. Basically, it means that trains stop immediately in front of signals which are on, and that when there is a train in the section following a signal, the signal goes on automatically. So, to go back to the example above, if signal 8 is off and all the conflicting mainline signals are on (which they must be because of the physical interlocking) then trains will stop automatically at the main line signals, so will not drive into the train which is shunting across the main line.

 

Brief video demonstation;

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lrfr44I4O4

 

Initially 5 is off and 16 is on. The J11 drives past 5, so 5 goes on (to protect the block).

 

Along comes the O4, which stops automatically in front of 5.

 

I pull 16 off.

 

J11 sets off.

 

Once the J11 is past 16, 16 goes on again and 5 goes off (because there is no longer a train in the  block between 5 and 16)

 

O4 sets off.

 

5 goes on (because the O4 is now in the block)

 

O4 stops in front of 16, because this is now on.

 

I know that this is a simplification of prototypical block management, but we have to compromise somewhere, and it is adequate for my purposes (ie will reduce the risks of my 7 year old destroying my scratch built stock!)

 

(By the way, I don't think I have used the best way of inserting video into the post; can anyone give me some guidance?)

 

George

 

 

[pointstaken]

Regardless of what the manufacturers (Modratec) have done, still I would suggest an outstanding piece of work. Likewise Micknich2003's achievement. Well done, gentlemen.

Oh well, back to my knitting !

 

Dennis

[Loxborough]

I guess if a "layout with signalling" is going to be at all convincing, we are going to need some signals.

 

First off, the up fast and slow homes, on a single bracket. This was my first ever attempt at building working signals, so construction was slightly trial and error, and overall it is a little rougher than I would ideally have wanted. It passes the acceptability test, though, so has gone on to the board in this form. All MSE components; very easy to work with, but I do think their website could have more information (for instance drawings showing what you are actually buying, and maybe some more explicit stuff about which bits go with which other bits). Just my view of perfection, though, and I have to stress that I am overall a very satisfied customer.  

 

Driver's eye view;

 

 

From overhead;

 

 

and the (not very interesting) Under board view, showing the GF controls gubbins. Not a cheap option but very easy to use indeed;

 

 

NB the Mirror image Templot printout nder the board; a huge huge help when doing the electrics.

 

Happy modelling all,

 

George

[LNER4479]

This was my first ever attempt at building working signals, so construction was slightly trial and error, and overall it is a little rougher than I would ideally have wanted.   

 

Now you just know when someone says that, that the actual item is going to be SO much better than being made out...

 

It looks great, nice n square n true which is the most important thing. And if it really is your first attempt then subsequent ones can only get better   Can't wait.

[Loxborough]

Now you just know when someone says that, that the actual item is going to be SO much better than being made out...

 

It looks great, nice n square n true which is the most important thing. And if it really is your first attempt then subsequent ones can only get better   Can't wait.

 

Kind comments, as ever, thank you. What you can't see in the stills, though (and is only just discernable on the grainy video) is the way that, when the signal is pulled off, the whole thing lurches to the right in a manner guaranteed to upset the safety inspectors. Must do better next term... 

 

Best,

 

George

[Loxborough]

No post for a while as I have been doing lots of not very photogenic track and under the board stuff (also pretty busy with the nonsense I get paid for...).

 

One signal completed, though; the down slow starter (16 in the diagram at the top, for anyone who is really interested). Not very proud of the paint job on the starter, but it was about my fifth attempt and I was not getting any better. Maybe I will try to adapt some transfers to somersault arms... 

 

All clagged up to the servos and the lever frame, and works as it should, which is reassuring.

 

 

More interesting stuff soon.

 

George

[Loxborough]

OK, so now I have to ask some advice (or at least ask people who know a great deal more than me about signalling to stop me doing something silly...)

 

Signals 10 and 13 on the above diagram are down starters. There would be a fair number of non stopping trains running through the station which would have to have early visibility of these signals, especially 10 which, being on the ECML down fast, would have streamliners streaking past at all sorts of daft speeds. The signals come at the end of a station on a left hand curve, which means that canopies, footbridge, buildings etc would all cause problems, especially for left hand drive locos. 

 

Having had a good look at a number of prototypes in the area (notionally somewhere Grantham-Peterborough) I have come up with the following, slighlty whacky, idea.

 

 

10 and 13 on co-acting gallows and sky arms, 12 and 11 (which indicate the crossover roads on the scissors) presumably not needing the sky arms as anything proposing to use the crossover would be approaching at a much reduced pace anyway. This would sit in the 10', thus being offset to the right to allow visibility as trains come round the left hand bend. Possibly an issue for left hand drive locos?

 

I have checked sight lines and a train approaching the station would see the sky arms well over the footbridge and canopies.

 

The thing/exciting piece of engineering/monstrous piece of fantasy (delete as applicable) is not based on any particular prototype but is a hybrid of prototypes which existed in the area at the time (1937).

 

I am, I suppose, hoping that the assembled company can give me some idea of whether this is a conceivable looking arrangement, or whether I am in the process of dropping any howlers....

 

All inputs very ratefuly received,

 

Best,

 

George

[Loxborough]

Well, nobody has suggested that my proposal above is totally stupid, so I have ordered the outstanding materials and you will, in principle, soon start to see it taking form.

 

In the meantime 14 and 15 as shown on the diagram above; the releases from the engineer's siding onto the fast and slow up lines respectively.

 

Bearing in mind a thread on here a few months ago about distants reading from sidings onto mainlines, and realising that trains from the siding will pop onto the slow in advance of 16, there is an additional need for a distant on 15. Not so for trains going onto the fast as they will join the fast in advance of the distant. 

 

So, building starts (actually it started a little while ago, but this is where I have got to so far...)

 

 

 

Trouble with somersaults (I am finding) is that the assembly of the somersault itself involves so much fiddling around that pre-painting is hardly worth it as much of the paint gets removed. Thus obliged to build then paint afterwards, and paint inevitably gets into the workings which then have to be worked free. If anyone has any ideas of how to get round this, I would be grateful to hear of them...

 

George

 

[Loxborough]

On the last signal the handrails around the platform caused me all sorts of problems so I have had a good think about how I can improve things and came up with the following;

 

1. Stanchions cut to length fronm .4 NS wire and the ends pinched flat using a good quality pair of pliers (idea nakedly nicked from Steve Hewitt).

2. The flat ends are then punched with my splendid rivet puncher (http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/rivet-embossing-tool.htm) which is a superb tool for starting small holes in exactly the right place, as well, of course, for pushing out rivets.

3. Holes then drilled out to .4 mm

4. A length of wire is threaded through the hole and stuck through the appropriate hole in a Bill Bedford bending jig, allowing the bend at the bottom of the stanchion to be set exactly right.

5. Guardrail (more .4 NS) is bent to the desired shape

 

Now looks like this;

 

 

The stanchions are then threaded onto the guardrail. Stanchions bottoms, already bent over, are then soldered where they need to go. Once they are all in place a few dabs of solder can be added to the joins betzeen stanchion and rail for solidity.

 

Beauty of this method is that you can concentrate on soldering each stanchion as you are doing it and the rail just ends up in the right place.

 

Result;

 

 

Mors assembly and painting next...

 

George

[Loxborough]

And here it is complete. Again, all plugged into the (increasingly complex) wiring and seems to work, which is reassuring.

 

 

 

The pait has, as predicted, clogged the workings a little on the left had doll, but the signals do work (all be it that the actuating wires bow visibly when asked to push the signals to the off position). The situation is getting better, though, as I work the signal and I am hopeful that before too long the paint will have worked itself out of the cranks.

 

I am a little more pleased with the distant than I was with the last one, but this took 3 attempts all the same...

 

On now with the monstrosity.

 

George

 

 

 

 

[Loxborough]

Work has started on the monstrosity;

 

 

Before you all decide I am utterly mad, it will be substantially cut down (this is just how it came out using the components which I had to hand), after which it will hopefully look a little more like a signal and less like the Angel of the North!

 

The post is an MSE "Heavy Lattice Bracket Signal Post" with an MSE 23' lattice post plonked on top. Whether by design or chance the fit is perfect, although without the strengthening angle going up the corners it would have been difficult to join so clearnly.

 

The bracket is the MSE 46' lattice gantry wildly abused...

 

George

 

 

[Loxborough]

Well, it is coming slowly, but it is coming;

 

 

Gives a slightly better idea of where I am trying to go.

 

The dolls are all held in place just by .8 brass pins run through from front to back as a temporary measure, thus wonky.

 

Somersaults next. Calming music a must...

 

George

 

 

[28XX]

Coo!

[Loxborough]

So, the fiddly stuff has started. Slightly stalled as I have run out of somersault arms and am waiting for the package to arrive through the snow. Progress so far, though;

 

 

 

 

Left hand doll fixed, others still only pinned thus wonky.

 

 

I am pretty new to this signal building stuff and this one is presenting some particular challenges, mainly around connecting the co-acting arms on the sky-arm signals. Firstly, it took me a little while to work out how to connect two arms to one crank. Solution was to actually run one arm from top to bottom and then, in the appropriate place, pinch and drill it (see guardrail description above for fuller explanation) and connect that hole to the crank. great;

 

 

I then realised that the arms have to move absolutely parallel, that because of the leverages involved the slightest error in the length of the connection between the arms would result in them being wildly out of parallel, and that there was pretty much no chance of me bending the connection to the right length. So, again cribbing from Steve, I cut the connector, introduced a .4mm ID sleeve, and used that to get the length of the arm just right;

 

 

Next two photos should explain;

 

 

 

 

 

 

The sleeve looks a bit cumbersome but is positioned so as to be (mainly) hidden in the bracket steelwork.

 

 

Travelling this week, so no modelling, but I hope to be home the week after, by which time the missing arm will, hopefully, have turned up.

 

 

Thanks for looking in.

 

 

George

 

Edited for fat finger error...

[Loxborough]

Testing the envelope of my competence here and, frankly, slightly wishing that I had waited until I had more experience before embarking on something as ambitious. Still, I guess this is one way to learn...

 

Heavy lifting done now, ladders, guardrails, lamps and then painting left to do. Oh, and balance weights. And finials. Oh pooh, it's still a long way from being done, isn't it?

 

 

 

Main Learning from this is that co-acting signals like this really don't work if they are actuated from the same crank; I have spent literally hours trying to get upper and lower arms to stay parallel throughout their movements and have had to give up and accept that I can get them parallel in one position but they will not quite line up in the other. The reason is that the actuating arm are of such different lengths that one inevitably bends, so gives, more than the other when the crank is thrown. Ho hum.

 

Also, I am not at all sure that the construction of the lower platforms is correct; all the prototype photos I have are shot from pretty much straight ahead so tell you nothing.

 

I have enjoyed it, thoough (he says, trying to convnce himself...)

 

George

 

 

[Loxborough]

Well, at long last here it is. I think I need a pause from somersaults...

 

Plonked on the layout, not yet connected, thus arms all a bit wonky (mind you, I am not promising they will be a whole lot better whn attached to their servos!)

 

 

 

I am sure it is a huge H&S no no, but I rather like the Bobby and labourer, paused mid maintenance, and I may leave them.

 

G

[Loxborough]

Feel like I am on the home stretch now, and have decided to do the last three signals in a batch. Th up fast distant, down fast home and the splitting down slow/fast home (if that makes any sense) on an equal T.

 

Significantly, I have devised a way of building these in sub assemblies so that the somersaults do not get clogged up with paint;

 

Equal T, ready for paint.

 

 

Up fast home;

 

 

Down fast distant (NB the slightly random bits of plastic between ladder struts and the post. This is to do with the way I get power to the lamp; the main part of the signal is live 12V DC  positive and the ladder is live 12V DC negative. All I then need to do is fit super fine wires from the LED to the post or the nearest ladder. I have been using this method on all the signals shown here, and it is reasonably successful);

 

 

and paint drying on the arms and cranks;

 

 

Detailed painting, spectacle glasses and then assembly.

 

Looking forward to having these completed.

 

G