Merfyn Jones Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Sorry Ringo, it's definitely a Marina - look at the front bumper and it's the pressed metal one with the recessed centre whereas the Ital had a plastic front bumper that was deeper and finished at the rear following the shape of the wheel arch (same as the car). The Ital commercials appeared a little while after the car versions, hence this extra last version that was the final fling of the Marina. There's a very good comparison in 'Classic Van and Pick-up' vo.1 issue 12 October 2001, page 7. I thought I can solve this !. We had a X reg Morrris van at our depot from the same batch as the Crewe one. Somewhere I have a front view of it to solve ? I can confirm the W reg were Marinas and the Y reg were Itals so here is my shot of an X reg van. Sorry, I was taking a shot of the boys ! Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb 3c Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Some you tube glimpses- BTF Wires over the Border an off road BR escort van and HA between 14-15mins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzOJM7R-AZU BTF Farmer moving South 1 of 2 (a great film) Couple Bedford O series at start , and maybe the cattle truck . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWp1-_voBM British Pathe Commer 797 FJJ walk thru getting in the way of ambulances at start ! http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=72998 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb 3c Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Pathe View Stills a great function................ Pathe View Stills a great function................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Just to show the difference (neither railway owned) http://www.flickr.com/photos/27204054@N07/3297598528/in/photostream/ late Marina pick-up with Ital door handles http://www.theaa.com...s-ital-van.html Ital van with wrap round plastic front bumpers, but still pressed metal at the back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringo Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Bernard, fair enough, made a t*t of myself there, , dosent realy matter though, Marina or Ital, they were still rubbish! Give me a classic yellow HA any day! Or has any one got pics of the horrible Commer (i think PA?) with the rounded front without all of the later plastic bumbers/grill. I have to say ive never travelled in a van that was so bad, ever, why did BR and BT keep buying such appaling vans! Cheers R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Bernard, fair enough, made a t*t of myself there, , dosent realy matter though, Marina or Ital, they were still rubbish! Give me a classic yellow HA any day! Or has any one got pics of the horrible Commer (i think PA?) with the rounded front without all of the later plastic bumbers/grill. I have to say ive never travelled in a van that was so bad, ever, why did BR and BT keep buying such appaling vans! Cheers R Easy answer to that, price ! We had the HAs when I started, but I found the Ital better. Until we got the Astras. I was that impressed with the Astra (our first diesels) that I went and bought one. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divibandit Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Don't know if you've seen this before but I took this today at 'Bells'n'Bugles' at Bentley (nr Lewes) today. It's a Firefly from Eastliegh Works Fire Brigade, one of four (the others were at Doncaster, Derby and Wolverton). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Don't know if you've seen this before but I took this today at 'Bells'n'Bugles' at Bentley (nr Lewes) today. It's a Firefly from Eastliegh Works Fire Brigade, one of four (the others were at Doncaster, Derby and Wolverton). Steve I have on my records the four, UAR993F no. 0RB 0993F at Wolverton, this is also preserved and on the rally scene. BNK142F no. 0RB 0121F at Derby MDN466F at Doncaster SMC640F no. S 1976 at Eastleigh Two further similar machines later supplied to Swindon and Derby were, PWV230H & LJH 1H no. 0RB 0001H. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Highlighted by yours truly for its atmospheric Lothian wintriness, this nonetheless contains some of the usual suspects lurking in the gloom: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=35359 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Highlighted by yours truly for its atmospheric Lothian wintriness, this nonetheless contains some of the usual suspects lurking in the gloom: http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=35359 Left to right looks like. Ford D, unknown flatbed, Guy Big J, Ford D300 5t tractor, looks like J reg. so probably one of many bought by NCL in those days, and finaly a Atkinson. Superb atmosphere ! Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The Big J is presumably a privateer's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The Big J is presumably a privateer's? My thoughts that they all are except the little Ford. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 My thoughts that they all are except the little Ford. Merf. You would only know if the Ford turned round. Auto coupling is the giveaway. BR were well and truly stuffed with auto coupling trailers as they were the only ones to use them and, built to exacting standards, they outlasted the tractor units by a many years. It prevented BR outsourcing the parcels delivery to outside contractors and the cost of equipping with low slung tractor units with the auto coupling was prohibitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 You would only know if the Ford turned round. Auto coupling is the giveaway. BR were well and truly stuffed with auto coupling trailers as they were the only ones to use them and, built to exacting standards, they outlasted the tractor units by a many years. It prevented BR outsourcing the parcels delivery to outside contractors and the cost of equipping with low slung tractor units with the auto coupling was prohibitive. I'm sorry this simply isn't true! many hauliers used the Scammell auto-coupling system in earlier days including BRS & the MOD continued to use the system in limited numbers upto the early eighties. i'm unaware that BR ever tried to outsource parcels delivery, in fact they desperately tried to clinge onto it, it's final incarnation as Rail Express Parcels closing in 1981 it had far more to do with de-regulation & a relaxing of road haulage licencing legislation that allowed private hauliers to be more flexible & competitive than BR Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 I'm sorry this simply isn't true! many hauliers used the Scammell auto-coupling system in earlier days including BRS & the MOD continued to use the system in limited numbers upto the early eighties. i'm unaware that BR ever tried to outsource parcels delivery, in fact they desperately tried to clinge onto it, it's final incarnation as Rail Express Parcels closing in 1981 it had far more to do with de-regulation & a relaxing of road haulage licencing legislation that allowed private hauliers to be more flexible & competitive than BR Nigel BR parcels delivery was outsourced - to NCL. This was part of the contractual arrangement when NCL was split out of BR and there was, I believe, a time clause as well as the various performance clauses in the contract. I'm not sure if BR was still using any cartage agents by then but that practice had in any case continued into the early 1960s and any contracts which remained would almost certainly have remained protected when NCL was hived off. C&G Ayres in Reading used the Scammell auto-coupler and when they ceased to be BR's cartage agent the trailers were simply taken into BR ownership along with the tractor units and some of the drivers. As I've already related the NCL contract had its pros & cons but one big advantage of it was that it enabled you to adjust the size of your parcels cartage fleet very easily and cheaply by simply giving notice that wanted the rounds revised and X number of vehicles stood down or added. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 BR parcels delivery was outsourced - to NCL. This was part of the contractual arrangement when NCL was split out of BR and there was, I believe, a time clause as well as the various performance clauses in the contract. I'm not sure if BR was still using any cartage agents by then but that practice had in any case continued into the early 1960s and any contracts which remained would almost certainly have remained protected when NCL was hived off. C&G Ayres in Reading used the Scammell auto-coupler and when they ceased to be BR's cartage agent the trailers were simply taken into BR ownership along with the tractor units and some of the drivers. As I've already related the NCL contract had its pros & cons but one big advantage of it was that it enabled you to adjust the size of your parcels cartage fleet very easily and cheaply by simply giving notice that wanted the rounds revised and X number of vehicles stood down or added. I agree mike but NCL were as you say a privatized part of BR, & not strictly an outside contractor I'm sure you'll agree that the scammell system was ideal for the purpose for which it was designed, light loads carried over short distance, with the closure of many branches depots & stations in the 60's they were no longer practical, due to the longer distances that needed to be covered in order to make the same deliveries, & in order to do this economically, the vehicles needed to be of a higher weight/stroke capacity than the scammell 3ton & 6ton units Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I agree mike but NCL were as you say a privatized part of BR, & not strictly an outside contractor I'm sure you'll agree that the scammell system was ideal for the purpose for which it was designed, light loads carried over short distance, with the closure of many branches depots & stations in the 60's they were no longer practical, due to the longer distances that needed to be covered in order to make the same deliveries, & in order to do this economically, the vehicles needed to be of a higher weight/stroke capacity than the scammell 3ton & 6ton units Nigel Coming in on this topic, can I add that NCL was not a privitised company, but part of the National Freight Corporation, which at the time included BRS and Freightliner. Privitisation came much later. There were trailers with Scammell couplings larger than the 6ton mentioned. B R had many of 8 & 10ton capacity and maybe bigger. These being in the hands of units like the Bedford TKA. The fifth wheel coupling with B R came about with the begining of Freighliner 'style' operation from 1963. Talking of outsourcing of parcel delivery. Does anybody know when a large number of vehicles were transfered from BRS to BR, during the 50s, in the Portsmouth and Guildford areas. I have a list of many Scammell horses, Scarabs, Bedford OL & OSS, and trailers, but no date. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I have added a few photographs of road vehicles, and related as a new collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/road The discussion on NCL is related as they show a variety of trailers in use at the Peterborough freight depot which was used by NCL. Paul Bartlett PS - Many of you know far more than me about these vehicles, I would be pleased to see public comments added to appropriate photographs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 I agree mike but NCL were as you say a privatized part of BR, & not strictly an outside contractor I'm sure you'll agree that the scammell system was ideal for the purpose for which it was designed, light loads carried over short distance, with the closure of many branches depots & stations in the 60's they were no longer practical, due to the longer distances that needed to be covered in order to make the same deliveries, & in order to do this economically, the vehicles needed to be of a higher weight/stroke capacity than the scammell 3ton & 6ton units Nigel Scammells were quite practical over longer distances than you might think - Herreford to Leominster with a BD container for instance But they were of course ideal town centre vehicles and there was still plenty of that sort of work well into the 1970s - albeit not necessarily BR work. Their big advantage was the ability to move trailers into spaces which it seemed no other tractor could get them into and where there was a lot of drop trailer working on town rounds they were probably the best vehicle for the job. And when you consider that most medium - large town centres Woolworths shops could receive as much as 3 trailer loads per day the job would have been difficult with anything else except as the most modern branches. And btw NCL very rapidly made it clear that it was nothing to do with BR except as a customer (ever less so) or supplier and within a decade or so of the split most of their senior ex-BR staff had gone and it was a relationship very much based on contracts although in the workshops and among some drivers there were still ex-BR folk who thought of themselves as 'something to do with the railway' which meant local relationships benefitted. But as far as any new contracts were concerned NCL were no different from anyone else in the road haulage trade when it came to setting or negotiating rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I'm sorry this simply isn't true! many hauliers used the Scammell auto-coupling system in earlier days including BRS & the MOD continued to use the system in limited numbers upto the early eighties. i'm unaware that BR ever tried to outsource parcels delivery, in fact they desperately tried to clinge onto it, it's final incarnation as Rail Express Parcels closing in 1981 it had far more to do with de-regulation & a relaxing of road haulage licencing legislation that allowed private hauliers to be more flexible & competitive than BR Nigel I was involved directly in the truck sales and finance industry between 1968 and 1983. During that time i was only involved with one small haulage contractor in Rotherhithe using the auto coupler and he had bought his trailers very cheaply. In the end, his purchase of a new Bedford TK tractor unit was fitted with a re-furbished auto coupler as no one could supply new. Every other haulage firm was using the later fifth wheel system. The body blow was the need to have a Class 1 HGV licence to drive what was basically a parcels van. All those who were employed at the time were able to apply for one under grandfather rights. Unfortunately this coincided with an explosion of road building and loss of railway business to road haulage which meant that these newly acquired HGV licences were worth a great deal more outside the railway. BR would have loved to convert to 7.5 ton rigids with modern aluminium box bodies but I suspect that most of the rail loading docks were too low to take a standard 7.5 tonner. Once again, standardisation had caught BR unawares Basically, BR were completely wrong footed by the idea of road to rail ( and back again ) movement and had all this vast array of equipment which was fast becoming obsolete. In pre war days, the money would have been found for the essential re-equipment but the rail masters were realising that the subsidy for rail was vastly outclassed by the income from road haulage. A no brainer for the Exchequer. I repeat though, nobody wanted auto couplers so the BR stock was both worthless and expensive to replace. I was there and involved with the burgeoning private truck industry and they were hugely dismissive of BR equipment and BR contracts in general. The reason for the growth of the road haulage industry was the lifting of the common carrier agreement as it became obvious that BR would be completely unable to compete in the new, faster markets that were emerging unless heavily subsidised. In other words, people were prepared to pay to have goods delivered door to door by road at a very much faster rate than BR could manage. I notice that there is no age on your profile. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which road haulage contractors were using auto couplers on private work? By the by and to get back on topic, how many of these auto coupler trailers were flat bed and were there any left after 1980? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I have added a few photographs of road vehicles, and related as a new collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/road The discussion on NCL is related as they show a variety of trailers in use at the Peterborough freight depot which was used by NCL. Paul Bartlett PS - Many of you know far more than me about these vehicles, I would be pleased to see public comments added to appropriate photographs. Thanks for posting those Paul. A few coments added, and some prints ordered. I was very pleased with the quality of the others I had from the Freightliner collection. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks for posting those Paul. A few coments added, and some prints ordered. I was very pleased with the quality of the others I had from the Freightliner collection. Merf. Merf Thanks for the comment. I would be interested to know how quickly they get delivered, I had one person comment back that it took less than 48 hours! Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Merf Thanks for the comment. I would be interested to know how quickly they get delivered, I had one person comment back that it took less than 48 hours! Paul Bartlett The last lot were about that Paul. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Apologies if I have missed this great West Country shot previously. The road vehicles are kinda secondary in the composition, but the backstory is simply legendary BR: http://www.derbysulzers.com/25225staustell79.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Apologies if I have missed this great West Country shot previously. The road vehicles are kinda secondary in the composition, but the backstory is simply legendary BR: http://www.derbysulz...staustell79.jpg We did have this one a while back, but it deserves a seccond outing . A cracking shot of 12 new Escort vans for the Western. When did we last see new vans for B R delivered by rail ? Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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