Problem with Code 75 assymetric 3 way - but not a frog switching problem

[highpeakman]

Hi all

 

Have searched for this problem but every answer seems to relate to to frog polarity switching and that is not the problem here.

 

Before I mention the problem I should sday that I have 14 fully operational points (all Peco code 75) of various options including a double slip. I use Tortoise motors and have made use of the inbuilt switching for frog switching but have also used a hex frog juicer sucessfully in some areas without any problems.

 

I have just installed the Peco code 75 assymetric 3 way in my fiddle yard area which is replacing two successfull separate points used previously. The two frog switches used previously are those built into the Tortoise motors which also switch the frogs. No problems there at all.

 

I effectively used the same set up on the 3 way using the same two Tortoise used before and making use of their inbuilt switches again. I am aware that the first two frogs are wired in common to one switch and the frogs switch exactly as they are supposed to.

 

However the problem is that one switch blade appears to be completely dead. It is marked on the picture below. As for tracks 2 & 3 it is the common rail then the problem appears when the point is set for either of those tracks.

 

[i know the picture is a N gauge point but the principle is the same].

 

 

Locos run perfectly down track 1 but will not operate over 2 or 3. They stall on the point itself and not on the frogs which switch correctly. I have a home made dcc tester and that shows this blade to be dead. I have tried pressing it harder against the running rail but that does not appear to make any difference. I have cleaned the insides of the rails and, again, no difference. By making a bridge to the running rail then the loco operates fine so there is a failure of the switch rail to make a connection to the running rail.

 

My question is that when wiring ordinary points it is usually good practice to solder a link between the running rail and the blade to improve reliablity of conductivity and not rely on the blade contact itself. I looked but did not find any recommendation to do that on the 3 way so left it before installing. The point is in a really awkward spot so I am not too keen to take it up and start again and I can solder wires into place which should solve the problem, effectively placing the link in place used on ordinary turnouts.

 

Has anyone else experienced this problem with the 3 way assymetric and what did you do to solve it please?

[RFS]

I have 3 of these on a DCC layout.  At first I just connected them as normal, with 2 frog polarity switches powering the 3 frogs.  However I started getting locos stalling as parts of the turnouts were dead - especially after ballasting and painting.

 

The solution is to solder a wire across all three rails on each side where Peco have already thoughtfully cut the web for you!  As my layout is DCC I've simply made this wire a normal dropper that's soldered across the 3 rails.  No problems at all since.

[highpeakman]

I have 3 of these on a DCC layout.  At first I just connected them as normal, with 2 frog polarity switches powering the 3 frogs.  However I started getting locos stalling as parts of the turnouts were dead - especially after ballasting and painting.

 

The solution is to solder a wire across all three rails on each side where Peco have already thoughtfully cut the web for you!  As my layout is DCC I've simply made this wire a normal dropper that's soldered across the 3 rails.  No problems at all since.

 

Thanks for the response. I am also using DCC but I think this would be a problem with DC or DCC.

 

It seems to be a problem with the point itself then (design?).

 

As I said I am reluctant to lift the point again but I think I can solder droppers to the relevant rails and join up under the baseboard.

 

I should have known better really than just leave it as it came from the pack so I'll put that as a lesson learnt.

Edited December 1, 2014 by highpeakman

[hayfield]

I don't know too much about the Peco range as I build my own points buy the wiring should be much the same. The switch rail you have a problem with has nothing to do with any polarity change via point motor/ switch/jucer as the polarity will always remain the same. Somehow it is loosing electrical contact. Sometimes the contact is just the blade touching the rail it sits against, if so either dirt/piece of ballast is stopping the electrical contact or glue has got between parts and insulating contact between the two parts.

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/3way.pdf here is an easy to understand wiring diagram from the C&L site for a 3 way. Just shows which rails are grouped together

[Izzy]

Just a thought. As a loco won't run down either 2 or 3 I would check the first set of point blades. If these aren't making good contact when it's set for 2/3 then there will be no power at the second blade set. Personally, the system of bonding the blades to the stock rail and isolating further along is far better and more reliable. The Peco method is just to simplify things and remove the need for a frog changeover switch but is prone to unreliability.

 

Izzy

[highpeakman]

I don't know too much about the Peco range as I build my own points buy the wiring should be much the same. The switch rail you have a problem with has nothing to do with any polarity change via point motor/ switch/jucer as the polarity will always remain the same. Somehow it is loosing electrical contact. Sometimes the contact is just the blade touching the rail it sits against, if so either dirt/piece of ballast is stopping the electrical contact or glue has got between parts and insulating contact between the two parts.

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/3way.pdf here is an easy to understand wiring diagram from the C&L site for a 3 way. Just shows which rails are grouped together

 

Thanks for the info but I am positive it is not a wiring problem.

 

The problem is that the blade is not making the electrical connection to the running rail when it is physically moved over. Whatever mechanism the point is supposed to employ to make that contact is just not working. I know that the answer is to wire permanent straps in place but that now means that i will probably have to lift the point out of position to do the work thus also lifting a couple of metres of track I have only just laid. I will probably also have to refix the point motors again and all of this is in an awkward place to get at. I raised the question on here hoping that there may be a simple quick fix but that seems unlikley.

 

Oh well, off now to dismantle the last few days work!

 

Yes I know now I should have done this before I laid it, as I have done with all my other turnouts, but I find it irritating that I should have to do it at all on a brand new point that has only just been laid.

 

When searching this and other forums for information before I fitted the 3 way assymetric point I could not find any recommendation or guidance on what should be done whereas there is loads on the standard peco turnout. I guess I misinterpreted that as meaning it would not be necessary.

 

With thought now I suppose it is obvious that it should be treated as two separate points and strapped in the same way. As so many people modify the turnouts like this I find it surprising that it is not done at the factory.

[highpeakman]

Just a thought. As a loco won't run down either 2 or 3 I would check the first set of point blades. If these aren't making good contact when it's set for 2/3 then there will be no power at the second blade set. Personally, the system of bonding the blades to the stock rail and isolating further along is far better and more reliable. The Peco method is just to simplify things and remove the need for a frog changeover switch but is prone to unreliability.

 

Izzy

 

Thanks  for your response Izzy.

 

Yes I realise the problem (please see my reply to Hayfield above).

 

I think you hit the nail full square with "prone to unreliability"! (Perhaps understated in this case!).

[RFS]

Just a thought. As a loco won't run down either 2 or 3 I would check the first set of point blades. If these aren't making good contact when it's set for 2/3 then there will be no power at the second blade set. Personally, the system of bonding the blades to the stock rail and isolating further along is far better and more reliable. The Peco method is just to simplify things and remove the need for a frog changeover switch but is prone to unreliability.

 

Izzy

This 3-way point is not the same as the standard Electrofrog points: you must use a polarity switch for the frogs since they are already isolated and otherwise they will be dead.  The frogs do not obtain their power via the point blades.  The bonding of the 3 rails on each side can be done without any other work and is valid for both DC and DCC.  To be honest I don't know why Peco don't fit a permanent bonding wire anyway.

Edited December 2, 2014 by RFS

[highpeakman]

This 3-way point is not the same as the standard Electrofrog points: you must use a polarity switch for the frogs since they are already isolated and otherwise they will be dead.  The frogs do not obtain their power via the point blades.  The bonding of the 3 rails on each side can be done without any other work and is valid for both DC and DCC.  To be honest I don't know why Peco don't fit a permanent bonding wire anyway.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Bit the bullet and pulled up all the trackwork. Bonded the point underneath by wiring in links using the sleeper gap as suggested by RFS. That cured the original problem (as I think we all expected it would) but relaying was not without it's aggravation. Trying to get the point motors perfectly aligned again proved awkward but then something weird happened and one motor would not respond at all to DCC commands. As expected there was nothing wrong with the motor (after removing it for the third time!) and after reprogramming the output on the switch 8 decoder (only for this single output) everything is now working just as it should. Why on earth did that happen? Lots of swearing involved in sorting it though!

 

My apologies as I realise this was probably entered in the wrong forum and it should have been put in the wiring forums.

[RFS]

I've had a couple of problems with Switch-8 decoders in that port 0 lost its address.  On my layout I'm using RR&Co automation and the result of the first occurrence was that a train went into the storage yard down the wrong track when a turnout didn't change, resulting in a heavy shunt. An hour later another point on a different Switch-8 failed to switch but this time it was a train exiting the yard so just a short on the frog.

 

I contacted NCE who advised sending the two Switch-8s back "for repair".  They wouldn't elucidate other than to say that the problem would "only affect port 0". I have 7 Switch-8s and didn't fancy disconnecting all of them and sending them to the US.  Instead I did a small re-assignment of ports so that all my spare ports are a port 0, and where I can't free up a port I've made sure that the turnout connected is normally a trailing one, so I'll get an immediate system short on the frog if it fails to switch, rather than an unwanted diversion with possibly damaging consequences!

[highpeakman]

I've had a couple of problems with Switch-8 decoders in that port 0 lost its address.  On my layout I'm using RR&Co automation and the result of the first occurrence was that a train went into the storage yard down the wrong track when a turnout didn't change, resulting in a heavy shunt. An hour later another point on a different Switch-8 failed to switch but this time it was a train exiting the yard so just a short on the frog.

 

I contacted NCE who advised sending the two Switch-8s back "for repair".  They wouldn't elucidate other than to say that the problem would "only affect port 0". I have 7 Switch-8s and didn't fancy disconnecting all of them and sending them to the US.  Instead I did a small re-assignment of ports so that all my spare ports are a port 0, and where I can't free up a port I've made sure that the turnout connected is normally a trailing one, so I'll get an immediate system short on the frog if it fails to switch, rather than an unwanted diversion with possibly damaging consequences!

 

Thanks for your comments RFS, very interesting and spot on. It was port 0 that failed.

 

I have two switch 8s and they have been installed for about a year now but this is the first time I have had this happen but I will keep a watch now.

 

Unfortunately I have no "spare" ports available so cannot avoid port 0. I would also not want to return these to NCE.

 

Curiously I am not aware of anything happening, like a short, to cause this. I am quite careful about switching off the track power while working on wiring. It was very frustrating to have re-installed everything and then found a motor not working. It was initially tempting to think the motor had failed so I removed it from it's mount to test and then found it worked when I used the plug from the next point. I should have realised from the reputation of Tortoises that it was unlikley to be that. After checking the wiring I decided to reprogramme the Switch 8 and then it all worked fine again.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

The only curious thing I noted with the switch 8s was when I had a problem with a short circuit a few months ago. The short was imediately removed but none of the points worked although the trains ran normally. A mains switch off/switch on restored everything to normal. I now have proper short circuit protection fitted by the way!

[retiredoperator]

Hi All. I also have a Peco three way asymmetric point. Looking online for answers, I seem to find conflicting info. Is there wires on the underside to breakout like regular Peco Points? There is a cheeky chap online that made it look so simple, but he didn’t mention the underside wires. Happy modelling Kev

[Barry Ten]

The 3-ways come with three underside wires that need to be connected to switches to power the frogs correctly. 

[RFS]

Hi All. I also have a Peco three way asymmetric point. Looking online for answers, I seem to find conflicting info. Is there wires on the underside to breakout like regular Peco Points? There is a cheeky chap online that made it look so simple, but he didn’t mention the underside wires. Happy modelling Kev

 

There are no wires to break out on this point.  Instead what you absolutely must do is bond the 3 "stock" rails on each side together.  Look at the underside of the point and you will see, about sleeper 14 I think, that Peco have already cut the webbing for you. So you just need to solder a bonding wire connecting all 3 together on each side. If you're DCC then best practice to solder a long wire across these rails and make it a dropper feed. Don't understand why Peco don't do this at the factory since this procedure is equally valid for DC and DCC. 

[DCB]

If your stock has decent wheels which are not tight to gauge and DC the points are fine out of the box. If you use use DCC and dodgy wheels you need to bond

the various rails together. If you use DCC and have derailments and shorts you need to bond the rails together. If you use DC (or DCC with half decent

overload protection) no problem. I use on board battery power and going R/C Life is short enough without wasting it soldering droppers.