11t Hibberd Planet

[hartleymartin]

I'm after some dimensions for the 11t Hibberd Planet locomotive:



I've found quite a few good photos, but I would like some body dimensions. I've enrolled myself into a 3D CAD drawing class and would like this to be my first project.

 

Being in the Antipodes, I can't exactly spend a weekend down at a museum to measure one up for myself. As far as I am aware, there were never any of this type brought to Australia.

Edited December 15, 2014 by hartleymartin

[hartleymartin]

Anyone who can get me the dimensions I need to make this model will get a free 7mm scale kit of parts. You will need motor, gearbox, wheels and a few other small items to finish it off, but you'll get a free set of parts (incl free postage) to anywhere in the world.

[maunsel]

This may or may not help -

 

8 ton Hibberd dimensions fig 5 at

 

http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/14/Planet.htm

 

& second down:-

 

http://www.elrdiesel.info/fleet-shunters-other.php

 

But I'd imagine you've already got hold of these links?

 

 

Eric

[hartleymartin]

I've seen those links. I'm after the details for the 11t variety. It seems that these were a little more scarce as little information exists about them on the interwebs.

[EddieB]

I'm not sure which preserved example you've illustrated.  FC Hibberd 3466 of 1950 was supplied new to British Railways (11104, departmental no. 52 from 1953) and was one of forty such 11 ton locomotives built.  (Unimaginatively, these locomotives were designated the "Shunter" type).

 

I haven't found a drawing, and while most of the catalogue pages reproduced in the FC Hibberd Works List (de Havilland and Gent, pub. Dennis Duck) show main dfimensions, none are given for the page illustrating this type.  Modern Traction Locomotive Directory supposedly gives dimensions for 11104 - but they don't seem to make sense:

 

Length: 23ft 9in (!)

Height: 12ft 5 1/2in

Width: 8ft 7in

 

Unfortunately the same author's The Diesel Shunter, which otherwise has drawings and dimensions, is silent when it comes to 11104.

 

I've highlighed the BR example as tt might prove easier to find the dimensions or a drawing - though as yet I can't find anything in the obvious places in books on on the net.

Edited December 19, 2014 by EddieB

[peter220950]

Martin,

Martin,

 

Not sure if I can help a lot, but will do what I can. An interesting book was dropped off in the club last night, which helps a bit, but not much.

 

 

It contains details of all of the loco’s produced by Hibberd, but tends to be engine numbers and the like.

 

There’s a copy of the Record sheet for 3466, the only shunter supplied direct to British Railways, an 11 ton one. This gives details as below:-

 

Journal centres 6 ft 10 ¾ inches

Journal Diameters 4¹/₂ inches

Wheelbase 5 ft 6 inches

Wheel dia 3ft 1 ½ inches

Wheel width 5 inches

Buffer height 3 ft 5¹/₂ inches

 

And that’s about all.

 

If there’s anything within striking distance of me I will try to go and measure it, so is it possible to confirm which ones are still preserved in the U.K.?

 

As far as I can see the ones preserved are:-

 

3147 – Colne Valley Railway

3294 – Waltham Abbey Gunpowder Mills

3765 – Buckinghamshire Railway Centre

3947 – Dean Forest Railway

3967 – Northampton Ironstone Railway Trust

 

Can anyone confirm this is the case, and if there are any more around, I can then look at trying to find something local and get permission to go and measure.

[hartleymartin]

There's 3509 somewhere in Ireland.

 

I've just come across a rather good side-view which will help me develop my estimates for the wee machine.

[hartleymartin]

I've done up a preliminary 3D cad sketch of the body of the 11t Hibberd Planet, just trying to get the measurements down. Most are conjectured measurements estimated off photographs.

 

I did my first short course on an introduction to 3D printing technology today. It really taught me a lot about the limitations of the methods. Just like any manufacturing process, it requires a lot of thinking about the process itself in order to design something to be made this way. At this stage I think that the best way to approach the design of the body is to make it a collection of flat panels which are then glued together rather than trying to make a one-piece body. If I were to turn this into a kit, I would probably get 3D printed masters then done up as pewter castings to give the tiny locomotive as much weight as possible.

 

*edit*

 

Finally figured out how the gallery works around here.

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by hartleymartin

[hartleymartin]

And another progress shot. I'm still working to conjectured dimensions based on photographs at this stage. A couple of hours with a tape measure, camera and the prototype, and I would probably be able to draw this up in a couple of days ready to 3D-print the body parts!

 

So you can see that I am quite serious about making this project happen. I'm drawing it in 7mm scale, but I could probably do 1:32, 10mm scale or other scale if requested. However, I still remain in the situation that I need definite measurements! The offer still stands that anyone who can obtain for me all the dimensions needed to make a scale model will get a FREE KIT OF PARTS at the end of the project.

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by hartleymartin

[PGC]

Martin

 

I see from the list supplier earlier that there are two preserved examples at Colne Valley Railway and Waltham Abbey Gunpowder Mills.

 

Neither are very far from me, so if I get a chance over the Christmas break, I will see if I can get to one of them (more likely Colne Valley) and take some photos and measurements, but I make no promises.

 

Phil

[hartleymartin]

Phil, if you get me what I need, I'll send you one complete version for free in any scale you care to nominate.

[PGC]

Martin

 

As I said, I make no promises. I can tell you there is no chance before Christmas as I sing in my local cathedral choir and this is the busiest time of year. After Christmas we have family visiting, so I don't currently know what my movements are - I really rather fancy a day out but if I have to take SWMBO with me there's very little chance of a visit to a railway! :-(

 

Let's see what happens.

 

Phil

[hartleymartin]

Phil,

 

As a fellow church musician (Tenor in Cathedral Choir and Assistant Organist in a Parish) I completely understand.

[peter220950]

Martin

 

I see from the list supplier earlier that there are two preserved examples at Colne Valley Railway and Waltham Abbey Gunpowder Mills.

 

Neither are very far from me, so if I get a chance over the Christmas break, I will see if I can get to one of them (more likely Colne Valley) and take some photos and measurements, but I make no promises.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

Do check first, I put the list out as what I believed to be the case, hoping it could be verified or corrected if necessary. - I think Dean Forest would be my closest, either way I reckon between us we should get one measured in the New Year to save Martin the air-fare! So don't fret too much if you don't manage it.

 

Martin,

 

I would certainly go with the two piece print, as I guess it will be cheaper to print if you can stack one inside the other, and whitemetal is going to be a definite help with mass, though with stay-alives on DCC pick-up is less of an issue nowadays.

 

Have you given any thoughts to chassis? - I might have a contact for getting something etched to suit once you have finalised the body.

[Phil Parker]

In 4mm scale, there has been a whitemetal kit available from Nonneminstre Models (http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/) for years. I built it over 15 years ago and it's a very nice simple job running on a Tenshodo SPUD.

 

[EddieB]

Well the combination of taking my children to meet Father Christmas on the Colne Valley Railway and with my grateful thanks to the MD there, I was able to take a few measurements directly from FH 3147.

 

It is clear that the locomotive was built to imperial measurements, given the major dimensions measuring an exact number of feet.,

 

Length over headstocks:  11 ft 0 in

Wheelbase: 5ft 6 in

Height of cab side (runing plate to rain-strip): 6ft 1 1/2in

Width of cab side: 6 ft 0in

Protrusion of buffer beam (beyond cab): 7in

Bonnet top slopes from 3ft 4in above base of running plate (cab end) to 2ft 11in (front end).

Length of bonnet: 3ft 10in

 

Overall width: 8ft 0in

Bonnet width: 6ft 9in

 

Hopefully these dimensions, together with the Engine Record Sheet (I hadn't noticed it reproduced in the book referred to), together with good phots should yield a fairly accurate plan.   I can post a broadside photo and various details if interested.

[hartleymartin]

Wheelbase is interesting, as some sources have listed 6'0"

 

What is the wheel diameter? Most sources I have say 3'0" but it could be anything from 2'6" up, knowing what industrial locomotives are like.

 

As I get drawing I'll be sure to discover what measurements I need. With the major ones in place, most can be reasonably guesstimated from photos using some techniques I have learned which involve a red pen, ruler, callipers and a calculator.

 

I've got some ideas for the chassis. Most likely it will be etched brass or laser-cut.

 

I have considered the possibility of using NWSL Magic Carpet Drive. Another option would be a Mashima motor. I would insist on being able to accommodate a large flywheel and a very low gear ratio. At least 40:1 or even 54:1 to get the slow crawl needed for shunters.

 

I intend to focus on getting the body drawn up. This will show people that I am serious about making this model happen.

[MikeOxon]

I've been watching how this thread developed, just to see how quickly information started to appear. Now we know that there is even a 4mm kit available!

 

For my own interest, I had tried out my method for estimating dimensions from oblique views on the photo in post #1, which indicated a wheelbase nearer 6 feet, if the length is 11 feet (though this estimate is very rough, as it was difficult to see enough of the wheel to decide when it was 'round')  EDIT  EddieB (#20 below) has pointed out that my baseline was incorrect, since the steps are not centred above the axles.  A second attempt (with the benefit of hindsight) gave me figures closer to his measurements,so I'm pleased that the perspective method comes out quite well, if used carefully!

 

 

In addition, the wheelbase on the side-on photo in post #7 seems to be a little more than half the overall length. If the length is 11 feet, then the wheelbase seems to be about 5'9".  This should be more accurate than my estimate from the perspective view.

 

I suspect these photo-estimates are fine for getting in the right ball-park but nothing beats applying a tape measure to the original 

 

Mike

Edited December 23, 2014 by MikeOxon

[hartleymartin]

Yes, the is more or less the method I use.

[EddieB]

I've been watching how this thread developed, just to see how quickly information started to appear. Now we know that there is even a 4mm kit available!

 

For my own interest, I had tried out my method for estimating dimensions from oblique views on the photo in post #1, which indicated a wheelbase nearer 6 feet, if the length is 11 feet (though this estimate is very rough, as it was difficult to see enough of the wheel to decide when it was 'round')

 

 

In addition, the wheelbase on the side-on photo in post #7 seems to be a little more than half the overall length. If the length is 11 feet, then the wheelbase seems to be about 5'9".  This should be more accurate than my estimate from the perspective view.

 

I suspect these photo-estimates are fine for getting in the right ball-park but nothing beats applying a tape measure to the original 

 

Mike

 

I'd suggest your benchmark measurement of the wheelbase is incorrect on that example, Mike 

 

If you look the right hand end of your orange line is almost vertically over the centre of the right axlebox, whereas the left-hand is to the left of the left axlebox.  Measuring betwen the centres of the axleboxes of the prototype with my trusty tape measure gave exactly 5ft 6in - which agrees with the builder's engine record card.  (The orange line appears to be the distance between the ends of the footsteps - if you look at the broadside pic further up you can see that they aren't aligned with the axles).

 

I'm puzzled why the total length appears less than twice the wheelbase in the broadside shot - checking my "field" measurements {read protrusion} + {cab} + {bonnet} + {front protrusion (7in)} confirms that the measured length of 11ft is correct.

 

Here's another side elevation shot - taken yesterday.

 

[JPPledge]

These may be of use. This is the machine preserved at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre, Quainton. Feel free to download the images if need be.

 

Cheers,

 

Jonathan P.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2014 by JPPledge

[Catweasel]

Wheelbase is interesting, as some sources have listed 6'0"

 

What is the wheel diameter? Most sources I have say 3'0" but it could be anything from 2'6" up, knowing what industrial locomotives are like.

 

As I get drawing I'll be sure to discover what measurements I need. With the major ones in place, most can be reasonably guesstimated from photos using some techniques I have learned which involve a red pen, ruler, callipers and a calculator.

 

I've got some ideas for the chassis. Most likely it will be etched brass or laser-cut.

 

I have considered the possibility of using NWSL Magic Carpet Drive. Another option would be a Mashima motor. I would insist on being able to accommodate a large flywheel and a very low gear ratio. At least 40:1 or even 54:1 to get the slow crawl needed for shunters.

 

I intend to focus on getting the body drawn up. This will show people that I am serious about making this model happen.

I have this loco earmarked for early next year. The chassis I'm going to try is the HighLevel QuadDriver,geared 108:1. I have the chassis fitted to the Roxey Mouldings Planet and it runs like a bird. Be interesting to see if it will fit.

[toffee]

Is there any progress on this loco ? Any chance of getting some parts/kit in 7mm ?

 

John

[hartleymartin]

I've shelved the 3D printing for the time being after finding that some materials break down badly in sunlight.

 

At the moment I'm looking at a "materialess kit" - basically looking to make it out of ready-available materials and a good drawing which will let the assembler cut out the parts (perhaps looking at getting certain parts lazer-cut)

[toffee]

Thanks, let us know how you get on !