BR(W) H39 Dining First & H36 Composite Dining Saloon (dining pair)

[70021 Morning Star]

SitRep:

I've been running those photographs through some advanced photo analysis and graphics software.

The results are inconclusive. There are definite marks, including lines, that can be linked to predicted reference
points that are indicative of a boundary. By the same token, these are enlarged digital images which contain a
lot of digital 'noise'. That is computer generated random pixilation.

 

So, although I'd still back the 'recessed doors' hypothesis based upon what's visible in the images.

It could be that I'm being misled by nothing more than 'digital noise' (as someone previously suggested);

although, it gas to be said, that 'noise' is only occurring right where it's most confusing. --- it's a

common enough problem when attempting to analyse degraded digital images, and I respect that

several rmweb experts are inclined to disagree. I'm not challenging that advice, but need to investigate

what appears to be compelling evidence.

Better quality, albeit still relatively low resolution, images are available at the photographer's website
www.sharpos-world.co.uk (a very useful photo resource! To find the H39 images, use the 'search' to

look for "9615". There are four images of slightly better quality than those I was using). --- I have contacted Sharpo,

asking if he'd be willing to send a high resolution digital image.

 

I know many people think I'm wrong (I may be :-) but please bear with me, as I like to thoroughly investigate

any photographic anomaly, especially if this thread is to be of use to others wanting to build the

Western Region's dining pair.

 

 

Meanwhile, those Comet H40 sides are coming as my 55th birthday present. Don't know if I'll convert them to a H36, or simply add a useful H40 to my collection of coaches. It'll be useful, either way, as the H39 was part of a dining "pair", and it'll give me something close to the H36 Composite Dining Saloon until something better comes along. Looking at the diagrams and photographs, it appears the window spacing (or window width?) of the Comet H40 might require more cut-and-shunt than I'd first envisaged; although the recessed door (aaargh, not 'recessed doors' again!) should be quite straightforward.

 

As ever, thanks everyone, for your help and support,

Rick

[Coach bogie]

9607 is a H38, a narrower, composite cross country, version of the H39.

 

I hear your arguement. I have an original, unscreened copy of the image above but I am not convinced. My models of both H38 and H39 have their doors flush with the sides and that is the way they will stay.

 

If there is a recess as you believe then it can only be an inch at that. I think I am a fairly good modeller but I could not produce a rebate to 0.33mm, would it be noticeable when moving in a train at a scale 70mph?

 

Good luck with the build

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Mike,
I expect you're right. An awful lot of coaches have 'slight' recesses, and shadows + digital 'noise' can be very misleading (a nice 1950s example of overlapping panelling and interesting roofline shadow effects on a BSK, below). And, as you say, Mike:  "IF" that recess exists, it'll only be somewhere in the range 0.4-0.8mm in 1:76 / 4mm scale.
 
Meanwhile, I've set the H39 aside, and am concentrating on the H36 Composite Dining Saloon (and taking out my frustrations by smashing up that big bag of real coal that's sitting in my living room :-)  ...yup, 92220 and 70021 are having the coal bunkers of their tenders detailed with real coal.
 
It appears that most of the work on converting the Comet H40 sides to represent the H36 will be the doorways at either end. If I'm reading things correctly, the H36 doors and the sides of the carriage-ends are completely vertical? Then there's (appx. 3ft) flat-sided area for the doors, before the bevelled transformation to the bellied profile for the remainder of the carriage sides. It also appears that the H36's doors may be slightly wider than those of the H40; that's the swinging door itself?
 
Alas, no sign of any books, but they're coming by Hermes, who always seem to take an inordinate time. I've ordered Russell's "A Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches: Vol.2: 1903-48" (which might not be the right one, but at £8 looked like a bargain) and a copy of "The Red Dragon and Other Old Friends! : A Glimpse of Post-war Steam in and Around Swansea", plus I won a copy of Chris Heaps', "Western Region in the 1960s" for £1.99, which will add to my ever-so-slowly building collection of railway books. Could do with a 'poor' grade copy of Russell's Appendix 2, but dealers only offer good, v.good, or pristine copies. I might see what the local lending library can offer.
 
 
Cheers,
Rick

 

Picture, taken in the 1950s, illustrates the various panel depths and overlaps around the doors of a BSK

[70021 Morning Star]

Books and Comet H40 sides have arrived. I'm pleased to say that converting the H40 into an H36 still looks remarkably straightforward; as in, 'is this too simple to be true?'...

 

No one has come back to challenge my statement that the doors and the sides-of-the-coach-ends of the H36 are completely vertical, and that the recessed (that word again) doorway areas and the doors are wider on the H36 than the H40, so I'll take that as agreement. (Either that, or everyone's realised I'm beyond help. :-)

 

I've also heard from the Severn Valley Railway, and am expecting a definitive reply shortly.

 

Rick

 

 

PICTURES: show the Comet H40 sides laid on the Bachmann 60ft Collette. It's the window section I'm using from the brass sides, so I've positioned them where they'll go. As you can see, the ends of the sides will need to be removed, at the point where the bowed sides bevel to meet the vertically flat ends, and I'll need to create suitable doors. (Any comments/observations, always welcome.)

 

 

[70021 Morning Star]

.

FLUSH FITTING OR RECESSED QUESTION RESOLVED

 

Sharpo, the chap whose photographs gave me cause to believe that the Severn Valley Railway's example of an H39 Restaurant First, had recessed tops to its doors, has just been kind enough to contact me with a higher-resolution image of 9615 that definitively answers the question.

 

Are the top portions of the double-doors recessed, or are they flush-fitting?

 

The following section of his photograph tells it all... Take a careful look at the shadows under the porch on the right, and it's clear that these doors are flush-fitting; indeed, if anything, the shadows now let us see that the left door of the pair on the right is sticking out slightly proud, on the hinge side, at the top! So much for my years of photographic analysis; I was caught out by 'digital noise'. Apologies where due.

 

 

Darn, got it wrong, again :-)

Rick

 

 

_________

[70021 Morning Star]

Ok, time to get going on this project. Off to the workshop...

 

Rick

[MJI]

Pretty sure it was the same chap who sent me really good pictures of the BR Bar Car

[westerner]

Just wondered how it's going?

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Alan / All,

The project has been on the back burner, as my 84 year old dad had a fall resulting in the surgeon deciding to give him an artificial hip. As a result I've only just gotten back home after being away for several months getting him resettled in his home and trying to get his care package sorted.

 

On the good side, he lives just a few miles from Hattons Model Railways, so (space and facilities being limited at my dad's) I've been dipping my toe into experimenting with n gauge. Also, I notice Hornby have released a new carriage which may make a better base 'donor' vehicle for the dining pair conversion. This is something I need to investigate.

 

I'm back home now, and need to pick up on several 00 gauge projects, including the dining pair, which are currently sitting on my workbench. In fact I'd have been out in the workshop today, but (would you believe it?) I copied my old dad by tripping and taking an awkward fall last evening! I won't be needing a techno-hip, but have managed to badly bruise my ribs, and instead of model making am laid up in bed for a day or two.

 

Hope to have some project updates soon.

 

Rick  

[westerner]

Hope your Dad recovers well.