BR(W) H39 Dining First & H36 Composite Dining Saloon (dining pair)

[Taz]

Rick,

 

The recessed doors aren't as pronounced as those on the centenary stock (see Mikes model pics above) so I don't think a Comet centenary would be a good starting point.

 

Maybe you could use some Comet H40 sides in combination with an Airfix b-set coach? Cut the doors off the comet sides and somehow use the recessed doors from the b-set spliced in.

Also note that as the doors were recessed they did not need or have recessed door handles.

Alternatively a combination of the Phoenix kits original H36 with Comet H40 sides?

 

It's a shame no one makes kits of the Cornish Riviera stock (in modified form) as I think they would make nice models.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Brian,

Yes, I hear and understand what you're saying. But, the coach doors on the following pictures of the H36 [ Oops! It's an H40 ! ] at the Severn Valley Railway aren't particularly recessed; only the tiniest 'suggestion' visible at the top of the door frame. Admittedly, the doors in the last picture (the H39) are recessed, but the Comet etched sides aren't recessed at all. Any idea how deep these doors are recessed, and whether it's a uniform depth for the full height of the door, or just the top section? In 4mm scale, I suspect we're talking about one thou of an inch.

 

Hmmm... It looks like I need to cut the doors out from the Comet sides, and move them back by a smidgen, using a backing plate. (Alternatively, I could use a tool to bend the frame back and create the recess that way. Some thunking needed.)

 

Anyway, it'll add a nice touch, Brian, thanks.

 

Rick

[Taz]

Rick, I am pretty sure those pictures are of 9627 which is a diagram H40 vehicle.

[70021 Morning Star]

The captions say H36. But I'll check the coach number and other sources. Suspect you're right...  watch this space ;-)

 

Brian, you are absolutely correct !  My picture of an H36 is actually an H40. ...no wonder I couldn't see any difference between the so-called H36 and Comet's H40 !!

 

Well spotted Taz.

 

So, WHAT DOES A  'rebuilt' H36 LOOK LIKE ???

 

Rick

[gwrrob]

Not sure this is much help but this shot was taken at the SVR just before xmas.

 

[Coach bogie]

If you run the video on post 4. freeze about 17 secs (00.19.23 on the Huntley Archive counter) and you can see the level of recess. Doors were not altered during the rebuilds.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Yes, Mike, should have gone to specsavers instead of believing a picture caption claiming to show the SVR's H39-H36 dining pair. I'd seen the recessed doors on the video, when you first posted it, but assumed the rebuild had altered the design to my so-called H36 (ahum, H40).

 

Robin, (obviously) no use asking me what your picture is. I wouldn't know an H23 from a Telephone Box. Nice picture, though; and useful for internal detailing. Thanks for sending it.

 

Now it's been established I was looking at the H40, things are dropping into place. Unless anyone posts a fully-certified, NRM-confirmed, correct picture of the H36, I think I'll wait for Russell's book before doing any more thinking further about Diagram H36 coaches and making a bigger fool of myself. :-D

 

 

Thanks guys,

Rick 

[Taz]

Rick,

 

Unfortunately you may be out of luck. I've just had a look at my illustrated history vol2 and the pictures all appear to be of pre modified vehicles.

[70021 Morning Star]

Cheers for the pm, Taz,

Now I know what's needed and how to do it.

 

I'm 99.99% convinced that the Comet H40 sides can, with a little modification, be used to model the H36 Composite Dining Saloon. The end doors will need cutting out and flattening. And the main coach side sliding sideways, to produce an even amount of plain side between the windows and end doors. But, that's simple enough. What I take off from one end will fill the gap at the other.

 

Still wish I had the H36 and H40 diagrams, but that's just to confirm the 0.01% of doubt.

 

Cheers,

Rick

 

Images are of the end sections of the Comet H40, showing the slight difference at each end.

[Coach bogie]

 

 

Images are of the end sections of the Comet H40, showing the slight difference at each end.

 

The windows at the right hand end has been modelled in a half open position. I have just check all the info I have and the window are the same for the three doors of the H40. See PM for diagrams

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Mike,

It's the horizontal length of that plain panel, between the window and the door, that's not even at each end. Larger on the right than the left, in the Comet H40.

 

The H40 diagram also shows a wider gap at one end (although it shows the coach the other way around to the Comet pictures).

 

Question is whether this is also the case on the H36 Composite Dining Saloon???

 

Thanks,

Rick 

[Taz]

The H36 would appear to have equal spacing at each end. The H40 is unusual in that it only has 3 doors as it had a toilet fitted in one corner. This probably explains the different spacing at the ends.

 

This means the Comet H40 etches might not be the best place to start as you will be 1 door short.

 

Of interest it would appear that both diagrams have all  the doors hinged to the left.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Brian,

I think all coach doors hinge on the left. Could be wrong, but think that's right.

 

Yes, you're probably right about the addition of a toilet cubicle on the H40. But why do you think I'd be 1ft short if I use the H40 to create an H36, they're both 60ft Collets, and I'd reuse the wee bit I cut out from the toilet cubicle end to shunt the 8 main windows into the central position? Don't tell me I've missed something, yet again?! Eeck!

 

Anyway, time for me to stop rambling, and show you some nice pictures...

1. Donor Bachmann 60' Collett
2. Comet H39 coach side layed on top of Collett, with opposite side and bow-ends beneath
3. Close up of H39 side placed on Collott

     Scale shows oo/4mm

 

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

Ok, enough fun. Back to recessed doors. The following image is of the SVR's H39 Restaurant First. While the image is poor, we can clearly see that the top part of the door is quite deeply recessed. This recess isn't captured in the Comet side panels, shown above.

 

Rick

[Coach bogie]

Ok, enough fun. Back to recessed doors. The following image is of the SVR's H39 Restaurant First. While the image is poor, we can clearly see that the top part of the door is quite deeply recessed. This recess isn't captured in the Comet side panels, shown above.

 

Rick

 It is not recessed. There is a rain gutter above the doorway. Best way to show it is this view of an all over blue Hawksworth

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Ho hum, we'll have to call you Banksy. Is that where you live, Mike?  ;-)

 

[Edit] Apologies, well spotted: indeed, Banksy, there is a small 'hood' in the recess above each doorway, but there is a definite backward slope of the doors, almost a suggestion of what I'll call the 'alcove' seen on the H39 Restaurant First coach's companion, the H36 Composite Dining Saloon.  

 

I think the doors are angled back, towards the top, to accommodate the upper door hinges. The lower hinges are located below the curve at the bottom of the door, so aren't protruding any wider than the coach body. The hinges are of a type where the fulcrum pin (the point of hinging) is at the outer edge of the protruding hinges, so the door swings both sideways-and-outwards. Without that sloping of the top part of the door, they couldn't use this type of hinge without them protruding too far on the already maximum permitted width of coach body, and they couldn't use close fitting hinges, otherwise the doors would foul the bulged sides as they hinged open (interference occurring at the bulged carriage wall, as the door swings into it, on the hinge side). Of course, they could have simply chamfered the doorway, as seen on earlier coach designs, but my guess is the newly formed British Railways wanted both modern-looking windows and smooth-sided 'modern looking' streamlined lines from the rebuilding of their dining cars, which this esoteric solution provides. --- An interesting, and important, design feature which I intend to recreate.

 

Actually, recreating those doors angling backwards into shallow recesses is straightforward.  A very sharp blade will easily cut through the Comet etching's deeply scored door lines (from the mid bulge of the coach sides), then bend the top of the doors back by about 1mm, soldering will regain structural integrity, then it'll be easy enough to file the rounded edges of the door pillars (maybe needing a little fine filler) nicely forming the recessed door alcoves seen in the Severn Valley Railway H39 photographs (see above). Of course, I'll also need to fabricate those small 'hoods' that eagle-eyes Banksy spotted. Simples.

 

A simple job that'll add some very interesting, and important, design detail to the model. And, an interesting demonstration of what 'teamwork' can achieve when modellers put their heads together. Thanks everyone for your posts and pm's.
 

 

Rick

[Taz]

Hello Brian,

I think all coach doors hinge on the left. Could be wrong, but think that's right.

 

 

You are correct. Sorry I was having a brain fart moment and thinking of more modern coaches such as Mk3 where doors open away from the centre of the coach.

 

 

Yes, you're probably right about the addition of a toilet cubicle on the H40. But why do you think I'd be 1ft short if I use the H40 to create an H36, they're both 60ft Collets, and I'd reuse the wee bit I cut out from the toilet cubicle end to shunt the 8 main windows into the central position? Don't tell me I've missed something, yet again?! Eeck!

 

 

 

I didn't sat 1 ft short. I said you would be one door short. The H40 etch will only have 3 doors etched. The H36 requires 4 doors.

 

Ho hum, we'll have to call you Banksy. Is that where you live, Mike?  ;-)

 

[Edit] Apologies, well spotted: indeed, Banksy, there is a small 'hood' in the recess above each doorway, but there is a definite backward slope of the doors, almost a suggestion of what I'll call the 'alcove' seen on the H39 Restaurant First coach's companion, the H36 Composite Dining Saloon.  

 

I think the doors are angled back, towards the top, to accommodate the upper door hinges. The lower hinges are located below the curve at the bottom of the door, so aren't protruding any wider than the coach body. The hinges are of a type where the fulcrum pin (the point of hinging) is at the outer edge of the protruding hinges, so the door swings both sideways-and-outwards. Without that sloping of the top part of the door, they couldn't use this type of hinge without them protruding too far on the already maximum permitted width of coach body, and they couldn't use close fitting hinges, otherwise the doors would foul the bulged sides as they hinged open (interference occurring at the bulged carriage wall, as the door swings into it, on the hinge side). Of course, they could have simply chamfered the doorway, as seen on earlier coach designs, but my guess is the newly formed British Railways wanted both modern-looking windows and smooth-sided 'modern looking' streamlined lines from the rebuilding of their dining cars, which this esoteric solution provides. --- An interesting, and important, design feature which I intend to recreate.

 

Actually, recreating those doors angling backwards into shallow recesses is straightforward.  A very sharp blade will easily cut through the Comet etching's deeply scored door lines (from the mid bulge of the coach sides), then bend the top of the doors back by about 1mm, soldering will regain structural integrity, then it'll be easy enough to file the rounded edges of the door pillars (maybe needing a little fine filler) nicely forming the recessed door alcoves seen in the Severn Valley Railway H39 photographs (see above). Of course, I'll also need to fabricate those small 'hoods' that eagle-eyes Banksy spotted. Simples.

 

A simple job that'll add some very interesting, and important, design detail to the model. And, an interesting demonstration of what 'teamwork' can achieve when modellers put their heads together. Thanks everyone for your posts and pm's.

 

 

Rick

Rick,

Before you start cutting the H39 etch up please note that these coaches had flush doors which were in line with the body work. What you are seeing in the SVR photos is either an optical illusion or something they have done post preservation (I would think probably the former). There is no need to modify the etch as it is already correct.

If you want to model the rain strips above the doors you should be adding to the model. There is no need to remove or recess anything.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Brian,

Thanks for drawing my attention to the missing door. Yes, of course, that toilet cubicle window will need converting to a door. Good job I have a metal scriber to cut some door lines in the brass. Phew.

 

As for what's going on with those doors. I'm going to give the Severn Valley Railway people a call, and ask them. They were always very helpful in the past, and they should know, although that's no guarantee. However, that leaning back of the doors is definitely a feature of the SVR H39 example, without which, it would be mechanically impossible for these doors to open. The designers had two choices, chamferring the rounded body side, as they did on the H36 doors, or having top hinges that stuck out too far. (Remember, the coach that they were rebuilding was designed to be at the absolute permissible width, the railway companies were computing to maximize interior space and every millimetre gained was important*, which is why it has flush-fitted door handles. So, nothing could be permitted to stick out beyond the width of the widest section, the rounded part, or these coaches would not have been permitted on many sections of track.) If you're able to enlarge those photographs on your computer, especially the first one, then look to the shape of the shadows being cast at the very top of the door frame. It really is a very clever piece of design. From passenger-eye-level, the break in the carriage's smooth lines wouldn't be noticeable (unless you already knew it was there), so they were able to create a very modern looking streamlined design. This was the beginning of the 'jet age'. British Railways were very 'fashion conscious', and prestige express dining car sets couldn't be allowed to ruin that image by looking like they were old stock, reused for convenience sake. Such would be unthinkable to the brash new British Railways. But, I hear people thinking, the second carriage in this pair (the H36 Composite Dining Saloon) has old fashioned chamfers on its doors. Yes, but those doors are at the ends of the coach, not interrupting the main streamlined lines of the rebuilt body. Whereas, on the H39, those pairs of double doors are right in the middle of the streamlining and, don't forget, this is the more important of the two carriages, being the Restaurant FIRST class carriage. 

 

*I've come across several articles where the Cornish Riviera coaches' interior space is expounded as something passengers valued. A marketing point of its day. And 'image' was all-important at this time.  

 

As an artist and designer, I've actually encountered similar design problems, when reusing existing door designs, and getting the hinging right is a real issue. Whether these design features came about during the rebuild, or whether the original carriages had this feature too, I can't say until Russell's book arrives. But, whatever the case, it would be impossible to build a coach to the absolute maximum permitted width, with those pairs of double doors right in the middle, and not to ruin the coach's modern lines, without employing this cleverly-disguised design feature. And, to be honest, I very much doubt that such clever 1950's metalwork design would be within the capabilities of the Severn Valley Railway.

 

That said, Brian, I do take heed of your 'caution', and shall be hastening slowly, as they say.

 

Thanks,

Richard

[Karhedron]

Duplicate post

[70021 Morning Star]

Great picture, Karhedron !

 

Yes, indeed, I'm convinced that the Comet H40 sides will be the only way to accurately model the H36 Composite Dining Saloon. Of course, they will need a little reworking, but the brass is thin and pliable enough to make this relatively easy. When I get a moment, I'll get my old blueprint drawing computer fired up, and post some suggested 'modification drawings' for people interested in converting the Comet H39 and H40 sides.

 

And I need to get on the blower to the Severn Valley Railway.

 

Cheers,

Rick

[Taz]

Rick,

 

Sorry, I'm not convinced. I still believe the doors are flush with the rest of the body work and the pictures are some sort of optical illusion.

Also the H39/H40 vehicles were not built to the maximum loading gauge (they were 9'3" at their widest vs 9'7" of the H36).

Also remember the widest part of the coach is at the waist line and the slightly larger hinge at the top of the door would not be further out than the widest part of the coach. The lower hinge was the stuck out more than the top hinge  as well to take account of the turn-under of the coach.

 

If you have a look at this picture you can see that there is no discernible difference in the door profile around the top hinge. Any higher than the hinge is an illusion caused by the rain strip.

 

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Brian,

Nope, the SVR H39 definitely has recesses to the top part of its doors. Try enlarging the section of the picture which shows the hinges either side of the double doors, then measure their protrusion. You'll find that the leftmost hinge is 1/6th longer than the rightmost hinge; that's because you're seeing the whole of the leftmost hinge, while a portion of the rightmost hinge is hidden behind the recess. Also, the H39 diagram shows the top portion of the coach sides (the glazed part) as almost vertical, just the slightest suggestion of an inwards lean. (Although the diagrams I've seen aren't exactly blueprint quality.)

 

Anyway, the Severn Valley Railway people said they'd have their appropriate subject matter expert get back to me.

 

Interesting you say they weren't built to maximum width. Yes, you're correct, I should have said that they were built to the maximum width that would still allow them to be used on a wide area of operations. Not the same as maximum, as you say. Still, it is a fact they invested in the expense of installing flush-fitting recessed handles - purely cosmetic styling, maybe - but I think it was to give pragmatic maximum width suitable for a wide range of operations. So, bearing in mind that the upper sections of the carriage would only incline around an inch off the vertical, those big 'projection hinges' (as they're termed) look to be approximately three or more inches, which I suggest would widen the overall coach width by at least two inches (maybe four) if those doors aren't set back into the coach sides, and (I'm told) would have limited the lines on which the H39 could operate.

 

As I've said before, I'm no railways expert, but my design and engineering experience - plus the photographic evidence - all points to the validity of my proposal. That said, I'm happy to be proven wrong. Does anyone live near the Severn Valley Railway who might pop over for a look?

 

Rick   

[Taz]

We might have to agree to disagree on this then.

 

These coaches were far from vertical across their top half. From 9'3" at their widest part (which would be just below the door handles) they narrowed to about 8' 5 1/2" at the cantrail,

Another way to look at it is all the ends of the hinges must be in line in the vertical for the door to be able to open. As the turn under is the narrowest part the bottom hinge is the largest but you can easily see the difference between the size of the top hinge and the middle hinge as well in the photo above which gives an indication of the profile of the coach.

 

Not sure where you got your diagram from but when you get your Russell book there are plenty of diagrams reproduced there showing the profile of almost all GW coaches (except the Hawksworths) were far from flat.

[Coach bogie]

I am with Taz. They are not flat sided and no recess to the doors. As per GA sent, reading the numbers, the H39 is 9ft 3" at the waist (9ft 4 1/2" inc door handles) reducing vertically to 8ft 5 1/4 at the top.

 

The door handles was the style at the time being used originally on the wide bodied 1929 stock then used on the very similar but narrower stock for cross country use. Non corridor stock inc B sets also used these door mechs during this period.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Ok, I'll accept the dimensional argument. (I'd misread post #24, not realising that Taz's reference to the width of the H36 does not also apply to the H39.) You guys have access to the resources I'm lacking, and it'd be foolish to seek the expertise of rmweb, then not to listen.

 

That said, I do know enough about photographic analysis (used to be a part of my profession) to categorically state that the Severn Valley Railway example of the rebuilt H39 Restaurant First has the top half of its doors significantly recessed. The question is whether that's something peculiar to 9615, or whether it's equally applicable to 9617 ?

 

Hopefully, SVR's subject matter expert won't take too long in replying, and my copy of Russell's 2nd picture volume will contain pictures of the coach, rebuilt or otherwise. Either will be interesting. Especially if there's any sign of a door recess before the rebuild.

 

 

<< THIS PROJECT IS 'ON HOLD' AWAITIN DECINITIVE CONFIRMATION ON H39's FLUSH-FIT OR RECESSED DOORS >>

 

 

 

 

Thanks guys,

Rick

 

 

Meanwhile, take a close look at the door window frames on the following picture of Restaurant Car W 9607 W, which I don't think is an H39 (wrong window position on right of door), but has the same door configuration, and nicely illustrates my point about photo analysis. You'll notice that the right side of each frame is missing - hidden behind something - giving a [ shape, rather than the expected [] shape to the window frames.

 

Part of the difficulty in analysing these pictures is Mike's small awnings over the windows. Now, re-examine the above pictures of SVR's H39, 9615. This time looking at Taz's picture (post #46, or my enlarged version, post #39), try to draw the expected lines \-------\ of the porch awning and you'll see that you're getting a vertical line \-------| on the right, most easily seen above the single door, instead of the expected diagonal; which is another sign that a structure is obscuring our view.