FAR road vehicles in France(Scammell licenced)

[rue_d_etropal]

I mentioned FAR in another thread to show how difficult it can be to research some things on internet. My interest in the Scammell licensed road vehicles produced by the company FAR in France, is family related as well as my interest in France and railways.

My grandfather was works manager at Scammell Lorries in Watford, and had a direct hand in the development and production of the Scammell Mechanical Horse and its successor the Scarab. Although at least one of my aunts and family travelled to france for holidays(my first visit was on their sailing boat), I never ever heard of any connection my grandfather had with France.

This was odd given his position, and makes researching FAR a lot more interesting.

I have been a member of the Mechanical Horse Society for a few years, but there has been very little info about the FAR produced vehicles. I have tried googling it, but 'FAR' is not a good search word to use. I have found a few collections of photos, but no scale drawings and it is interesting to see some models now, even if they are only using the Scammell trailers. I think there must be something out there, especially as it is railway related and we are usually pretty good at writing books and articles on the subject.

The FAR produced vehicles were actually still in production after Leyland/Scammell stopped production. There are many connections to other vehicle manufacturers, and some surprising ommissions(notably German), My grandfather's cousin worked for Routes motors, who owned Karrier, one of the main competitors in the 30s. Apparently they did not get on well, but I am not sure if that was connected to Karrier dropping their version.

Although Britain dropped the 3 wheeler tractor9suposedly on safety grounds), both Germany, Italy and Japan did develop 3 wheeler vehicles. The Italian APE has its origins in the classic scooter of the 40s/50s, and most ar e not tractor unit, although there were some.

Just wondering if anyone has more info on FAR in France, in particular scale drawings as I would like to design some models, possibly for 3D printing.

It would also help tie up some loose ends.

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if there's any connection with Hotchkiss? Best known as an armaments manufacturer, they also produced (under licence) the Jeep and the Ferguson tractor. This latter used a version of the Standard engine that was used in the Standard Vanguard and, I believe, in the Scarab.

I did a bit of searching under F.A.R Vehicules Routier, and came up with these:-

http://rendezvousdelareine.forumgratuit.org/t1953-le-camion-tracteur-far

http://www.lesrendezvousdelareine.com/article-far-les-trains-routiers-construits-par-chenard-walcker-125246737.html

The vehicle has been manufactured in HO by Haxo.

[mikeharvey22]

Doesn't the 3 part "Charge Utile" series provide some drawings and dimensional data? Fairly sure that Loco Revue had a reasonably well illustrated article when the Haxo kit was released back in the 1980s.

 

Sadly many minority interest subjects have a limited internet coverage but it takes someone with the right level of enthusiasm to secure permission to obtain and scan copyrighted documents and publish them online, always assuming they can find hard copies of the required information.

[rue_d_etropal]

I sometimes onder if the way we feel about our railways and heritage is different to the way the French feel about it. Those photos are new to me and highlight the similarity, especially the early versions which are in effect the ssame, but with 2 headlights. I could never understand why Scammell continued with only one headlight(one of the safety issues in the 60s), where as the versions sold abroad had 2, as did the FAR version. It might be possible to produce an FAR drawing from Scammell drawings.

I should really get along to the Leyland museum and see what drawings and info they have, as it is not far away.

Despite the massive interest in road transport, railways are still better covered, from engineereing to social/working side. A lot of the ideas used in motor industry have their origins in the factories set up to support the war effort in WW1. Unfortunately some in the motor industry were then responsible for what happened later.

The non tractor version of the FAR was used by the French Army, and some were captured by the Germans. I have seen a kit for one of these in 1/48 scale, but given this military connection ould hope for a kit in either 1/35 or 1/72. I had not realised Scammell produced a similar non tractor version till Oxford Diecast introduced their models, although the Dartford Tunnel recovery vehicle was one of these(I had just assumed it was converted from a tractor unit). It would be too much to hope for Oxford Diecast to start a range of 1/87 scale French vehicles

I will have another look at those magazine links as it looks like they can still be bought.

 

Makes sense to have those links here, I have just ordered some copies

http://charge-utile....is-roues-2.html
http://charge-utile....is-roues-1.html
http://charge-utile....es-roues-3.html

 

It would be an interesting project to take on, covering the history of the Scammell version and then the French version, including something about the factories ,working conditions, and how they evolved out of WW1 factories. Its a bit of irony that the Lottery head office is built on the old Scammell works, and it might be to the Heritage Lotteryt people that i could apply for funding for such a project. just a pity I was not interested 40 years ago when my grandparents were still alive.

 

Just remembered something. I knew that Standard Vanguard meant something to me. There was a project to build a 4 wheel version of the Scammell. Some of the FAR versions I think were also   wheelers(need to checxk my photos). Anyway , the Scammell4 was based on the Standard van, so it is highly likely it used the Standard engine. Scammell had used the Gardner engine for many years, which I think was also Leyland owned. The small mid engined van Leyland produced during the 70s looks very similar , but not sure if it originated from Standard or BMC, but that van evolved into the Leyland Sherpa van, which I drove in the late 70s, and was one of the more successful products from Leyland. Its just a pity they did not have the idea to create a 'people carrier' as it was perfect, and that had to be left to the French with Renault. A Sherpa would also have made a good tractor unit, and if fitted with the right engine, would have made an interesting spectacle racing a car from standstill at traffic lights(quite a few car drivers made that mistake when they saw a Sherpa van)

Looking at the post war FAR body, it has a similar look to the Scarab, and it has been hinted that the design team from Bedford had a hand in the Scarab body design. The FAR does have even more of the look of the big postwar Bedfords and Opel trucks.

[PhilJ W]

It was the Scarab 4 that used the Standard Atlas cab. It used the entire rear end of the Scarab including the engine, which on the Scarab was mounted behind the cab. The Scarab 4 was simply the Atlas cab complete with the steering and front suspension tacked onto the Scarab rear. The single headlamp was not a great problem, the biggest fault with the Scarab was the lack of any brakes on the front wheel which made an emergency stop 'interesting' to say the least.

[rue_d_etropal]

It might have been interesting to see how the Scarab 4 developed. There was a lot of cross pollination between the BMC/Austin and Standard/Triumph, and a lot of rivalry. Better than the Townsman, which did have 2 headlights, but only 3 wheels.

[PhilJ W]

It might have been interesting to see how the Scarab 4 developed. There was a lot of cross pollination between the BMC/Austin and Standard/Triumph, and a lot of rivalry. Better than the Townsman, which did have 2 headlights, but only 3 wheels.

The Scarab 4 was a failure because it was expensive compared to the Karrier and Ford units coming on stream.

[Fat Controller]

Dad had a Standard Atlas pick-up at one time; to say it was a dog would raise howls of protest from the Canine Defence League. I think he got it as part-payment for a job for the local Standard-Triumph dealer; he'd had an Ensign, Vanguard and Standard 8 (van), which had been reliable and long-lived, so the Atlas was a disappointment. It was very 'European' in its styling, I recollect.

[rue_d_etropal]

I didn't think the Scarab 4 got much further than prototype stage. Certainly none preserved. It would have been better to modify another vehicle rather than bodging 2  together. It is one reason why I feel there needs to be a decent book written about Scammell, and the background from WW1 when they were originally asked to produce a British version of one of the American tractor/semi lorries, the move to Watford and then  through to when the Watford factory closed.

[PhilJ W]

The prototype Mechanical Horse was built by Napier about 1930 for the LMS. The design was taken over by both Scammell and Karrier. Scammell's product was a better vehicle and this was adopted as standard by the 'big four'. A few hundred Scarab 4's were produced for the South African railways and I understand that one of those has been preserved.

[Fat Controller]

I didn't think the Scarab 4 got much further than prototype stage. Certainly none preserved. It would have been better to modify another vehicle rather than bodging 2  together. It is one reason why I feel there needs to be a decent book written about Scammell, and the background from WW1 when they were originally asked to produce a British version of one of the American tractor/semi lorries, the move to Watford and then  through to when the Watford factory closed.

Simon,

I presume you've encountered this site:-

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/f352005646

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p712228678

[rue_d_etropal]

I might have spotted the aecsouth website, but I am more interested in piecing together the history.

I have found where it all started with the American Knox

http://justacarguy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/hot-damn-steve-finds-more-interesting.html

 

The French military used the Knox 35 , and I think it was this that Knox wanted Scammell to manufacture. The similarity to the Scammells produced in the 1920s is striking, but then everyone has always said cars/lorries at different times look very similar. One changes and the rest follow. The Knox 35 was used as a tank transporter(well lightweight ones anyway), and I think it is part of the evolution of both the MH, and articulatred lorries. It does interest me that articlated lorries were more common in both the UK and USA than in mainland Europe. There were articulated versions of the Bedford, but not the Opel in the 30s. As far as I know there were never any German produced articulated Ford lorries, but Scammell did this big deal with FAR in France. There was a lot going on behind the scenes, and some knew a lot more about what was going on .

 

Napier did do the initial work on the MH. My grandfather had worked in the aero industry during WW1, and I had thought it might have been Napier, but I have a photo of him next to a 'Green' engine. These were manufactured in Stockport as well as London, so preceded the moves of a lot of that industry to the north west. English Electric , I think took over Napier and set up production in the north west. My grandfather might have still had connections with aero industry, and he played a big part in the MH, although I have never seen his name in any article. He did get commission on every MH/Scarab though.

 

Something about South Africa does strike a bell, but as to whether any Scarab 4's are preserved, the MH Society website says it does not know of any.

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if Knox had any connection with 'Blaw-Knox', who used to make heavy plant, such as graders?

The popularity of 'wagon and drag' against articulated tractor and trailer is still noticeable in a lot of Europe, especially from the Alps southward- possibly due to the number of multiple S-bends on many roads (I think the longest continuous series we've encountered was 18, on the descent from Mont Cenis). An artic with a 40' or 45' trailer would have a much greater overhang on these than a truck/trailer combination. Rail-carried swap bodies of the shorter 7.1- 7.8m variety, as opposed to the 13.7m type we see in the UK, are noticeably more popular south of the Alps. The Italians even offer RHD lorries for the domestic market, as these make life easier for the driver on mountain roads.

I couldn't find much on Knox, save that their truck-producing business was relatively short-lived, but they seem to have been behind one game-changing innovation; the fifth-wheel coupling that is still used on articulated vehicles today.

[PhilJ W]

I wonder if Knox had any connection with 'Blaw-Knox', who used to make heavy plant, such as graders?

The popularity of 'wagon and drag' against articulated tractor and trailer is still noticeable in a lot of Europe, especially from the Alps southward- possibly due to the number of multiple S-bends on many roads (I think the longest continuous series we've encountered was 18, on the descent from Mont Cenis). An artic with a 40' or 45' trailer would have a much greater overhang on these than a truck/trailer combination. Rail-carried swap bodies of the shorter 7.1- 7.8m variety, as opposed to the 13.7m type we see in the UK, are noticeably more popular south of the Alps. The Italians even offer RHD lorries for the domestic market, as these make life easier for the driver on mountain roads.

I couldn't find much on Knox, save that their truck-producing business was relatively short-lived, but they seem to have been behind one game-changing innovation; the fifth-wheel coupling that is still used on articulated vehicles today.

I haven't found any link between Blaw-Knox and the Knox company but Blaw-Knox did establish a factory at Watford the home of Scammell. The mechanical horse as developed in the UK owes nothing to the Knox 3 wheeler, in fact they produced a four wheel tractive unit with chain drive and the trailer semi permanently attached to it. The first Scammell articulated was very similar and was produced at the same time (early 20's) so this may be where the connection with Knox occurred and not with regard to the mechanical horse.

[rue_d_etropal]

There is certainly in one article a suggestion that a customer of Knox asked Scammell to build something similar, which they could not do till they moved to Watford, but I thought I had also seen it suggested Knox also asked Scammell the same question.

The development of road transport has not been a steady evolution, but often a combination of smaller ideas, and quite often chance played a hand. If Scammell had not been asked to build an articulated lorry, I wonder if they would have developed the MH. No-one will know. Each of the large number of small pieces of info, may not mean much on their own but when put together form a pattern, possibly. Road conditions in southern Europe might explain fixed wheelbase as opposed to articulated, but the north of Europe also favoured the fixed, except Britain.

[PhilJ W]

The Customer was Edward Rudd who asked Scammell to produce something similar to the Knox six wheel articulated lorry. But this was in 1914 and any development was halted by the war. George Scammells great nephew, Lt. Col. Alfred Scammell was injured and invalided out of the army and was able to apply his practical experience in designing the Scammell articulated six wheeler. This was a very different beast from the mechanical horse, it carried greater loads, ten tons or more with the later ones and the trailer was not readily detachable. The mechanical horse owed nothing to the Knox three wheeler, it was a completely new type of vehicle developed for different circumstances.

[rue_d_etropal]

Just received those 3 French magazines. Very interesting. No drawings unfortunately, but the original FAR vehicles look virtually the same as the Scammell, but with 2 headlights. I think there is a need for a proper account of the FAR vehicles. FAR seem to have put more development into the vehicle, as thee are a lot more variants post war. Even one of the basic ones being used to shunt railway wagons I think, but I will have another look at photo.

As for evolution of the MH, I was not suggesting a direct link back to the Knox, but it is part of the story. I have still to fully unravel my grandfather's involvement as I think he had a bigger link than just being works manager.

Interestingly when I googled the Knox I found a number of reports which were obviously based on the same source, even some of the wording was the same. Hopefully with all the historical interst in WW1 and the use of Knox vehicles by the French, there might be more interesting info surfacing.