Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[5BarVT]

46 minutes ago, Sharky said:

Not even a lock bar left out!

I suspect it’s too late now.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, TrevorP1 said:

Thanks Paul. So a Tyler's machine like this Tyler's Token Instrument for Burngullow?

Yes, (within the limits of AutoMistake spelling!).

Paul.

[TrevorP1]

Far from boring Mike - fascinating I'd say!

 

Some years back I got to know the late Dennis Howells (9466) and it was through talking to him I realised there was far more to signalling than I ever could have imagined. I find it very interesting but I know so little and the more I learn the more I realise how little I know...

 

I've read a couple of books by ex-signalmen, the most recent being An Entry in the Train Register by J D Francis who was at Whiteball. I find them absorbing and wish there were more. I have Burghclere Signalman ready to read sometime soon.

[TrevorP1]

11 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Yes, (within the limits of AutoMistake spelling!).

Paul.

 

Thanks Paul. Yes Tyer's . 

[5BarVT]

1 minute ago, TrevorP1 said:

I've read a couple of books by ex-signalmen, the most recent being An Entry in the Train Register by J D Francis who was at Whiteball. I find them absorbing and wish there were more. I have Burghclere Signalman ready to read sometime soon.

There’s also Another Entry in the Train Register by John and one by a signalman in Merseyside (not Wirral unfortunately) available from Railway Benefit Fund.

Paul.

P.S. I remember Dennis, went to briefing meetings with (possibly by) him.

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

It’s a failing of Signal Engineers in particular, and possibly railway engineers in general! (Sorry.)

Agree. AWS, TOC, DRA, CCS ... far too many TLAs in use on the railway 

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

It’s a failing of Signal Engineers in particular, and possibly railway engineers in general!

That’s not restricted to signalling, railways, or engineering.

 

For example, ASW: anti-submarine warfare. Or approved social worker. (Based on an overheard conversation between an ex-MoD modelling friend and my ex-wife who is a consultant psychiatrist.)

Some years ago I changed career slightly from marketing, where LTV means “life time value”, to work in a building society on mortgages, where it means “loan to value”. Talking about selling mortgages to the marketing team could get very confusing…

[LNER4479]

20 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

I've read a couple of books by ex-signalmen, the most recent being An Entry in the Train Register by J D Francis who was at Whiteball. I find them absorbing and wish there were more. I have Burghclere Signalman ready to read sometime soon.

The attached is the best introduction to the topic I know of. First came across it over 35 years ago and still a well-thumbed book on my shelf. Mike (Stationmaster) has previously told me that it was partly written with railway modellers in mind.

(Note the word 'introduction' above - I've no doubt there are far more definitive tomes out there but the K&W book is a great introduction)

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Sharky said:

What?!
No routes set?!
Not even a lock bar left out!

I'm guessing the local Signals & Block Inspector (Or 'Blocko' down here) likes to see a tidy frame.

As I understand it, if the inspector was around then the bobby would put everything back after every move, to get more lever movements recorded and thus possibly a higher grade (=more money) for the box.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Agree. AWS, TOC, DRA, CCS ... far too many TLAs in use on the railway 

Don’t forget the ETLAs like TPWS.

They can’t be FLAs as that’s only a TLA.

I’ll leave quietly . . .

Paul.

[Metropolitan H]

When I were a young engineer PTI = Positive Train Identification, now PTI = Platform Train Interface. I have never really worked out how the first morphed into the present ?

 

Also there was FART = Fully Automatic Railway Train, till officialdom decreed that it had to become FACT = Fully Automatically Controlled Train!

 

Regards

Chris H

[Oldddudders]

Don't forget FATCOWS. Fully Automated Track Circuit Operated Warning System

[Tallpaul69]

All these make the GWR and its AWS, sound very old hat!!

[The Stationmaster]

I always liked the anti-TOPS acronym  'BOTTOMS' (Back OnTo The Old Manual System) - just a shame it was an unofficial one.

 

3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

The attached is the best introduction to the topic I know of. First came across it over 35 years ago and still a well-thumbed book on my shelf. Mike (Stationmaster) has previously told me that it was partly written with railway modellers in mind.

(Note the word 'introduction' above - I've no doubt there are far more definitive tomes out there but the K&W book is a great introduction)

 

It probably is one of the best introductions, if not the best, and it had the advantage of being updated and revised to take account of various new developments as they came along.  I knew one of the chaps who actually wrote various parts of it (as opposed to the names which appear on the cover) who was also a regular feed of subject matter for Alan Williams' column in 'Modern Bailways'.  The IRSE series of green cover booklets can be useful as well but they don't deal with Company/Regional quirks and differences while this book does pay some heed to them

 

John Francis, whose b name was also mentioned, was at one time a Signalman on my then patch although he has long had an interesting life switching between periods as a Signalman when he was not being a Signal Engineer `. At one period in the latter role he spent a lot of time not implementing my request for Lime Street Controls  at waterloo International (the Eurostar terminal but I needed them for shunting moves with hauled stock for the night services after I had got my MD's agreement to taking them out of Kensington Olympia - but of curse they didn't happen either.

(Lime Street Control is a way of controlling subsidiary signals  into a terminal platform which could be occupied by rakes of vehicles etc of differing lengths).  Sorry - back to Kernow.  well maybe via some draft pages for this -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I always liked the anti-TOPS acronym  'BOTTOMS' (Back OnTo The Old Manual System) - just a shame it was an unofficial one.

 

Talking of which, ever come across an Area Rolling Stock Engineer?

[5BarVT]

12 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Talking of which, ever come across an Area Rolling Stock Engineer?

Or, Automatic Route Setting Equipment - something for the signalman to fall back on.

Paul.

[Regularity]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

TS = Train Staff (generally used with 'One Engine In Steam' working. - eventually revised in the diesel era to 'One Train Working' = OTW) 

One question of OES/OTW, but if there a branch which was manually signalled for the most part, but the final stretch was worked as a siding with one train only, would there be signals for entry/exit to/from the OES section?

Nowadays with RETB (sorry, Radio Electric Token Block) there is a stop and obtain token message board, but before we had such delights, what was the usual procedure?

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

One question of OES/OTW, but if there a branch which was manually signalled for the most part, but the final stretch was worked as a siding with one train only, would there be signals for entry/exit to/from the OES section?

Nowadays with RETB (sorry, Radio Electric Token Block) there is a stop and obtain token message board, but before we had such delights, what was the usual procedure?

Probably!

I’m being slightly obscure (again?)!

The RETB stop board is a signal with verbal authority to pass it (given over the radio as part of the RETB message protocol).

With OES/OTW there would be a signalman to give and receive the token and operate the signals.

The ‘probably’ is that there are some places where the single line started within sidings, or was accessed through a ground frame where there may not have been actual signals.  There would be a ‘commencement of token section’ and ‘end of token section’ notice to define the limits (or similar wording).

The Tytherington branch operates in this manner: train signalled off/on the main line by signals at Yate, token section marked by stop/notice boards inside (albeit it is now token so that more than one train can go down, but I’m fairly confident the arrangements will have been the same when it was OTW staff).

Burngullow to Parkandillack is another: the OTW section starts about 1/2 mile away from the main line with just a noticeboard going in and coming out.   The gap in between is yard/siding working.

Paul.

[Metropolitan H]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Talking of which, ever come across an Area Rolling Stock Engineer?

No, but for part of my career I was The Assistant Rolling Stock Engineer for London Underground - just the four initials on the back of my Hi-Vi vest!

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited December 11, 2021 by Metropolitan H

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

some draft pages for this -

Any copies available (pretty please)?

 

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

One question of OES/OTW, but if there a branch which was manually signalled for the most part, but the final stretch was worked as a siding with one train only, would there be signals for entry/exit to/from the OES section?

Nowadays with RETB (sorry, Radio Electric Token Block) there is a stop and obtain token message board, but before we had such delights, what was the usual procedure?

 

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Probably!

I’m being slightly obscure (again?)!

The RETB stop board is a signal with verbal authority to pass it (given over the radio as part of the RETB message protocol).

With OES/OTW there would be a signalman to give and receive the token and operate the signals.

The ‘probably’ is that there are some places where the single line started within sidings, or was accessed through a ground frame where there may not have been actual signals.  There would be a ‘commencement of token section’ and ‘end of token section’ notice to define the limits (or similar wording).

The Tytherington branch operates in this manner: train signalled off/on the main line by signals at Yate, token section marked by stop/notice boards inside (albeit it is now token so that more than one train can go down, but I’m fairly confident the arrangements will have been the same when it was OTW staff).

Burngullow to Parkandillack is another: the OTW section starts about 1/2 mile away from the main line with just a noticeboard going in and coming out.   The gap in between is yard/siding working.

Paul.

I think this is how the Carbis branch was worked. There were signals at Bugle (later Goonbarrow Junction) to control entry to and exit from the branch but no others. See further up this topic for more discussion on this.

 

1 hour ago, Metropolitan H said:

No, but for part of my career I was The Assistant Rolling Stock Engineer for London Underground - just the four initials on the back of my Hi-Vi vest!

 

Regards

Chris H

I've told this story before but I think it's worth repeating. In 1989 I was seconded to the Eastern Region M&EE Area Review team. It wasn't always very exciting stuff so we tried to spice it up by introducing a role called the Area Rolling Stock and Overhead Line Engineer. It got about three rungs up the approval ladder before it was squashed.

[Regularity]

City University of Newcastle Upon Tyne, anyone?

(That is much debated/discussed as to veracity, though.)

 

During the Suez crisis, an English proposal for a new Anglo-French company to take it back and run it was shot down by a French negotiator: “That means arse-licker in French.”

[Sharky]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

As I understand it, if the inspector was around then the bobby would put everything back after every move, to get more lever movements recorded and thus possibly a higher grade (=more money) for the box.

We tried to do this at Frankston a few years ago.
Unfortunately the pay rise was knocked back (partially because the reliever running the frame during the assessment couldn't keep their mouth shut about how easy they found it to run).
But we ended up getting a second person on Day and Afternoon shift so that's something...

[St Enodoc]

16 minutes ago, Sharky said:

We tried to do this at Frankston a few years ago.
Unfortunately the pay rise was knocked back (partially because the reliever running the frame during the assessment couldn't keep their mouth shut about how easy they found it to run).
But we ended up getting a second person on Day and Afternoon shift so that's something...

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to keep it single-manned (-personned?) and pay them more than to pay two people?

[Sharky]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to keep it single-manned (-personned?) and pay them more than to pay two people?

It would have yes.
But the costs from 'work safe' caused by work place injuries and the union on managements back about preventing injuries would've been more expensive.

 

[St Enodoc]

Here's the state of play as of this morning.

 

The frame and block shelf sit very snugly in front of the windows on the Down side of the box.

 

For the record, here are the four sides/ends of the box with the roof resting in place, still temporarily:

 

The Down side faces the future backscene, so will be seen rarely once the box has been installed.

 

The Up end will have the access steps added once the box and platform have been fitted together. Despite my best efforts, the block shelf seems to be leaning slightly towards the frame at this end. Too late to change that now.

 

The Up side is the side that faces the Porthmellyn Road signalman. As you can see, the model and the Modratec frame orientations correspond here. The real signalman and the Merit model can stare at each other through the windows.

 

The Down end will be visible obliquely when installed but you won't be able to see much through the windows. Of course, at this end the block shelf support is nice and vertical.

 

With the roof on, I think the corresponding lack of light inside the box and the restricted view through the windows mean that my decision not to add more detail than this was the right one. There's as much visible here as there is on photos from the outside of the real Par signal box.

 

Roof details and painting next.

Edited June 20, 2022 by St Enodoc
Images restored