Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Chamby]

On 16/07/2023 at 07:59, St Enodoc said:

I even looked inside the Shackleton box to see whether they were hiding there but no luck (no I didn't....

That’s a rare utterance of the ‘S’ word.

 

I’ll take the bait... go on, I dare you to open the box!

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, Chamby said:

That’s a rare utterance of the ‘S’ word.

 

I’ll take the bait... go on, I dare you to open the box!

Sorry, you lose.

[Nick Gough]

7 hours ago, Chamby said:

That’s a rare utterance of the ‘S’ word.

 

I’ll take the bait... go on, I dare you to open the box!

Take the money!

[St Enodoc]

I had an hour or so spare last night, so all my images on this topic are now restored back to May 2020 (except for one that I cant find...).

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

(except for one that I cant find...)

Found it - I was searching for the wrong filename. Now restored.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I had an hour or so spare last night, so all my images on this topic are now restored back to May 2020 (except for one that I cant find...).

...and now back to January 2019 (but with a few more missing photos...).

 

It's going to be more tedious going back from there to 2015, because the pre-2019 version of RMweb seems to use different filenames from the original files, so seeking them out might take a little longer.

 

Bear with me!

[5BarVT]

Do have some hindsight!  Free, gratis, and for nothing.  I can recommend it, very good.

Can’t remember when I started and probably after the Great Crash.  I now name my photos to include the posting date and then store a copy in my backup system.  If it ever happens again it will be a case of starting with the photo and then finding the posting it was in.  Easy for those in my thread, just a search through my ‘activity’ for the others.

All of which is my way of making sure the fates prevent a repeat of the great crash(!?),

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Do have some hindsight!  Free, gratis, and for nothing.  I can recommend it, very good.

Can’t remember when I started and probably after the Great Crash.  I now name my photos to include the posting date and then store a copy in my backup system.  If it ever happens again it will be a case of starting with the photo and then finding the posting it was in.  Easy for those in my thread, just a search through my ‘activity’ for the others.

All of which is my way of making sure the fates prevent a repeat of the great crash(!?),

Paul.

Thanks Paul. All my photos, railways or otherwise, dating back to 2001 when I got my first digital camera (plus selected earlier photos that I've scanned for particular reasons) are filed by date taken.

 

The ones I can't find from last night are scanned objects rather than pictures taken with a camera. If they don't turn up quickly I'll make new scans (and then file them).

 

I'm only restoring my own photos on this topic at the moment. If any other topic hosts would like me to do the same they can let me know.

[aardvark]

23 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I'm only restoring my own photos on this topic at the moment. If any other topic hosts would like me to do the same they can let me know.

 

More than enough to be getting on with, I should imagine 😵‍💫

[St Enodoc]

We're getting there...

 

After yesterday's first session at Old Trafford the photos are now restored back to August 2016 but another one has done a runner - the "General" pencil eraser, otherwise known as Stubby's Rubber, posted on 21/9/16. That might be gone for good, as I threw the thing out when I found better ways to hold point blades for filing.

 

Depending on the weather in Manchester, it's possible that I might get right back to the start of the topic tonight. We'll see.

 

In other news, I found the box of u/s H&M motors this afternoon. In my usual (non-) methodical way, I had put some boxes inside a larger box to save space. The larger box had no label...

 

I can now chop and carve some up for the Pentowan uncouplers with a clear conscience.

[St Enodoc]

Success (not with the weather at Old Trafford yet though...)!

 

I've now restored all my images to this topic, except for the three scanned book covers and the photo of Stubby's Rubber. I'll deal with the first three in due course but the last is, I think, a lost cause.

 

Back to trains tomorrow, with luck.

[St Enodoc]

Today I decided to extend the Pentowan spur (headshunt) as far as the end of the straight section of track through 15 points at Treloggan Junction. I don't want to go any further because that would result in a radius of about 700mm on the spur, which would look too tight.

 

I'd already laid the trackbed, so after gluing down a couple of offcuts of track the spur is a couple of feet longer than before.

 

 

 

Luckily, that's just long enough to let the 350hp shunter shunt the 8 coaches of set 721 clear of the double slip, albeit only 7 are clear of 41 disc:

 

 

This isn't the final formation of set 721 but it has the right combination of coach lengths for this exercise.

 

I rounded off the afternoon by dismantling a couple of H&M point motors. Each motor yields two uncoupler coils, some screws, a compression spring and some scrap metal and plastic. I'll carry on next week until I have trashed a dozen motors, which will give me enough coils for Pentowan with a few spares.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Today I decided to extend the Pentowan spur (headshunt) as far as the end of the straight section of track through 15 points at Treloggan Junction. I don't want to go any further because that would result in a radius of about 700mm on the spur, which would look too tight.

 

I'd already laid the trackbed, so after gluing down a couple of offcuts of track the spur is a couple of feet longer than before.

 

 

 

Luckily, that's just long enough to let the 350hp shunter shunt the 8 coaches of set 721 clear of the double slip, albeit only 7 are clear of 41 disc:

 

 

This isn't the final formation of set 721 but it has the right combination of coach lengths for this exercise.

 

I rounded off the afternoon by dismantling a couple of H&M point motors. Each motor yields two uncoupler coils, some screws, a compression spring and some scrap metal and plastic. I'll carry on next week until I have trashed a dozen motors, which will give me enough coils for Pentowan with a few spares.

That'll give the Signal Sighting Committee something to think about - I look forward to seeing the results.

[Flying Fox 34F]

48 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That'll give the Signal Sighting Committee something to think about - I look forward to seeing the results.

The Committee will probably refuse to permit the move.  The Shunter will have to split the rake and shunt twice to get inside the signal.

Or,

There is an adjustment to the Signalling that makes the Double Slip hand points instead of worked by the Signalbox.

 

John, may just write a very local instruction under Layout Rule 1.

 

Paul

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The Committee will probably refuse to permit the move.  The Shunter will have to split the rake and shunt twice to get inside the signal.

Or,

There is an adjustment to the Signalling that makes the Double Slip hand points instead of worked by the Signalbox.

 

John, may just write a very local instruction under Layout Rule 1.

 

Paul

Being party to the locking sketch for Pentowan (probably shown some large number of pages back), it’s only the crossover part of the slip that is controlled from the box.  The split to loop/sidings is hand points.  In the era that John is modelling I doubt there would be any track circuit over the slip.  So from the engineer’s point of view I don’t think there’s a problem - it’s no different to coming out clear of any other point and reversing under shunter’s instruction other than being behind the shunt signal.

So my procedure would be: Shunt out clear, operate hand points, (hand?) signal to request clear signal, hand signal to driver to proceed.

Now the operators can say how that can be done under the rules.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That'll give the Signal Sighting Committee something to think about - I look forward to seeing the results.

 

11 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The Committee will probably refuse to permit the move.  The Shunter will have to split the rake and shunt twice to get inside the signal.

Or,

There is an adjustment to the Signalling that makes the Double Slip hand points instead of worked by the Signalbox.

 

John, may just write a very local instruction under Layout Rule 1.

 

Paul

 

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Being party to the locking sketch for Pentowan (probably shown some large number of pages back), it’s only the crossover part of the slip that is controlled from the box.  The split to loop/sidings is hand points.  In the era that John is modelling I doubt there would be any track circuit over the slip.  So from the engineer’s point of view I don’t think there’s a problem - it’s no different to coming out clear of any other point and reversing under shunter’s instruction other than being behind the shunt signal.

So my procedure would be: Shunt out clear, operate hand points, (hand?) signal to request clear signal, hand signal to driver to proceed.

Now the operators can say how that can be done under the rules.

Paul.

I don't think I've posted Pentowan SB diagram here yet, as it's still a bit of a rough sketch. Give me time...

 

I think that, as Paul says, the key is that the station end of the double slip forms the A end of 40 crossover with the point that leads to Platform 1 forming the B end. When it lies normal, the route is between the main line and platform 1 at the B end; and between the carriage sidings and the goods yard/spur at the A end. The other end of the slip, where the BTK is standing, is hand-worked (see the fourth photo above).

 

Would it be feasible to assume that there is an imaginary fouling bar, that the BTK is standing on, to hold 40 normal when shunting in and out of the goods yard/spur? If not, would it be feasible for the shunter to call the bobby when making this specific move that doesn't clear 41 disc so that he can put a reminder on lever 40? If not, I could add an imaginary track circuit...

 

In any case, this is a bit hypothetical as the only time set 721 will need to be shunted is between the carriage sidings and one of the platforms, which of course uses the main line and not the spur!

 

Thoughts welcome!

Edited July 24, 2023 by St Enodoc
added photo reference

[Flying Fox 34F]

The detailed responses have given me a clearer picture of the intended movements.

For the time period, I would suspect communication between Shunter and Signalman maybe by handsignals.  
I’m not certain a Foul Bar would be installed as it is not giving access to a Running Line?

 

The fact the nearest point end of the double slip to the train is handworked, puts the responsibility on the Shunter to make sure the train is first, clear of the points and then, ensure the switch rails are fitting up correctly, before signalling to the driver to setback in to the relevant road.

 

I’m sure Mike, the Stationmaster, will provide us with more details.

 

All good fun trying to work out how places may have been worked.

 

Paul

[St Enodoc]

53 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The detailed responses have given me a clearer picture of the intended movements.

For the time period, I would suspect communication between Shunter and Signalman maybe by handsignals.  
I’m not certain a Foul Bar would be installed as it is not giving access to a Running Line?

 

The fact the nearest point end of the double slip to the train is handworked, puts the responsibility on the Shunter to make sure the train is first, clear of the points and then, ensure the switch rails are fitting up correctly, before signalling to the driver to setback in to the relevant road.

 

I’m sure Mike, the Stationmaster, will provide us with more details.

 

All good fun trying to work out how places may have been worked.

 

Paul

Thanks Paul.

 

My thought on the fouling bar was that it could prevent 40 points being reversed when the train was in the position shown but like you I'm not really convinced (and it would have to be long enough for a 70ft coach to operate it, meaning that it would extend beyond the toe of the next point along...). In any case, I suppose that 41 disc would still be pulled Off which, would lock 40 points anyway.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think I've posted Pentowan SB diagram here yet, as it's still a bit of a rough sketch. Give me time...

Here we are. It's still a bit of a very rough sketch but tidied up slightly to go on here. It's correct as far as the layout and lever numbers are concerned (edit: apart from 49A, which I missed until after I'd scanned the sketch) but it still needs some things adding, not least the location of the signal box (behind the unnamed loco spur stop block) and the distant signals (more on those another time...).

 

Although it will be a single frame, it simulates both Treloggan Junction and Pentowan signal boxes. TL levers run from 1 - 22; 23 - 25 are spaces; then PT levers run from 26 - 54. The 13 hand points in the goods yard/carriage sidings area aren't shown, of course, and the line labelled Sidings is in fact the Loop, from which the carriage sidings spring.

 

Lever 50 works the crossover between platforms 2 and 3. In real life, the corresponding lever released a ground frame but that would be unnecessarily complicated on the model. A small dummy two-lever ground frame will feature in due course though.

 

The signals we've been talking about here are 41 disc, for leaving the goods yard, and 43 signal, for entering it.

 

I must, again, thanks both Mike @The Stationmaster and Paul @5BarVT for their massive help in working this and the associated interlocking out.

 

Comments welcome, although it's too late to make any changes now as the interlocking has been designed and I'll be ordering the frame soon.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by St Enodoc
missing number

[P.C.M]

Hi John, Your making great progress the layout is looking fab. 

I think anything being shunted thats a bit long for the headshunt would shunt out on the Main which I think you said you may well do. Just as long as the limit of shunt is far enough out to give clearance and there is a ground signal by that first point leading into the station. We still used hand signals most of the time in my day but also had walkie talkies. 😁

 

Cheers Peter.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/07/2023 at 03:44, St Enodoc said:

 

 

I don't think I've posted Pentowan SB diagram here yet, as it's still a bit of a rough sketch. Give me time...

 

I think that, as Paul says, the key is that the station end of the double slip forms the A end of 40 crossover with the point that leads to Platform 1 forming the B end. When it lies normal, the route is between the main line and platform 1 at the B end; and between the carriage sidings and the goods yard/spur at the A end. The other end of the slip, where the BTK is standing, is hand-worked (see the fourth photo above).

 

Would it be feasible to assume that there is an imaginary fouling bar, that the BTK is standing on, to hold 40 normal when shunting in and out of the goods yard/spur? If not, would it be feasible for the shunter to call the bobby when making this specific move that doesn't clear 41 disc so that he can put a reminder on lever 40? If not, I could add an imaginary track circuit...

 

In any case, this is a bit hypothetical as the only time set 721 will need to be shunted is between the carriage sidings and one of the platforms, which of course uses the main line and not the spur!

 

Thoughts welcome!

It's a perfectly common situation and not in the least unusual with no need for any sort of additional Instructions or such oddities as fouling bars and so on.  Yo make a move, and set a route, in to the sidings the Signalman needs to agree with the Shunter what is to be done before he changes the points.

 

That situation applied at Newquay with exactly that arrangement on the direct equivalent double slip there,    There were numerous other examples in Cornwall at -

St Columb Road. in an earlier layout at Goonbarrow. at Penzance (the Sea Sidings),  a slighty different arrangement ofa double slip at t Long Rock (where at one end one set of switches were worked bya hand lever and the other set by the'box). Camborbirn, Drump Lane  (on two sets of slips), Truro West, St. Austell, Par Harbour, Bodmin Road,  Doublebpis, and Liskeard.  

 

In other words this very common GWR/BR WR arrangement was also to be found in abundance in Cornwall .  By the way none of these were track circuited (why would they be?) although there were examples elsewhere on the WR where afteer resignalling the slip would be oartially tracjk circuited because the 'panel 'box operated end was operated by a point machine.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, P.C.M said:

Hi John, Your making great progress the layout is looking fab. 

I think anything being shunted thats a bit long for the headshunt would shunt out on the Main which I think you said you may well do. Just as long as the limit of shunt is far enough out to give clearance and there is a ground signal by that first point leading into the station. We still used hand signals most of the time in my day but also had walkie talkies. 😁

 

Cheers Peter.

 

Thanks Peter. Yes, you're right. I only wanted to see if set 721 and the shunter would fit. It would have been a shame if they were just an inch too long!

 

I think the double slip is close enough to the signal box to let me assume that handsignals (or loud shouting) were the order of the day.

 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's a perfectly common situation and not in the least unusual with no need for any sort of additional Instructions or such oddities as fouling bars and so on.  Yo make a move, and set a route, in to the sidings the Signalman needs to agree with the Shunter what is to be done before he changes the points.

 

That situation applied at Newquay with exactly that arrangement on the direct equivalent double slip there,    There were numerous other examples in Cornwall at -

St Columb Road. in an earlier layout at Goonbarrow. at Penzance (the Sea Sidings),  a slighty different arrangement ofa double slip at t Long Rock (where at one end one set of switches were worked bya hand lever and the other set by the'box). Camborbirn, Drump Lane  (on two sets of slips), Truro West, St. Austell, Par Harbour, Bodmin Road,  Doublebpis, and Liskeard.  

 

In other words this very common GWR/BR WR arrangement was also to be found in abundance in Cornwall .  By the way none of these were track circuited (why would they be?) although there were examples elsewhere on the WR where afteer resignalling the slip would be oartially tracjk circuited because the 'panel 'box operated end was operated by a point machine.

Thanks Mike, that's good enough for me!

Edited July 26, 2023 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

I destroyed some more scrap H&M point motors today. It was very satisfying.

 

Each motor yields two uncouplers, which when cleaned up look like this:

 

The uncouplers will be screwed direct to the bottom of the baseboard. The H&M armatures are about 5.15mm in diameter, which my trusty Osborn Cutting Guide 1985 edition (courtesy of Mitchell Fox Metrology in Leeds) tells me must be 13/64". I can't get screws in that size, so I'll use some 5mm ones whose previous job was to bolt the boards together on the old oval St Enodoc layout. The baseboard hole will probably need to be either 3/16" or 4.5mm. I'll try both on some scrap plywood to see which lets the screw cut its own thread better.

 

I think I need 22 uncouplers for Pentowan, so I chopped up a baker's dozen motors to give me a few spares.

Edited July 29, 2023 by St Enodoc
speling

[St Enodoc]

Robin @gwrrob, Kevin @KNP and  John @checkrail have been showcasing their Grange fleets recently, so I said I would do the same. I have six, all 83G Penzance engines, shown here in numerical order:

 

6800 is a completely standard Hornby model. Apart from fitting a decoder, fitting a DG coupling and renumbering/renaming I haven't done any work on it yet (which is also true of most of the others, I'm afraid).

 

6809, on the other hand, involved a lot more (too much) effort.

 

When I was on a weekly commute between home in Polesworth and work in Croydon, over 25 years ago, I wanted something to stop me going to the pub every night. I'd bought a K's Grange Bodyline kit some time earlier and in those days Bachmann sold loco chassis as spares. So I bought a Manor chassis and built the Grange body to fit. What a palaver that was, because the firebox wasn't wide enough inside to clear the Bachmann mechanism. Even after thinning the cast sides as much as I dared, there wasn't room. In the end, I had to leave a gap between the firebox halves and fill it later.

 

That wasn't all. Back home, I painted the loco but it didn't look very good, so I stripped the paint and primer with Nitromors. Unfortunately, that stripped out all the filler I'd used to fill various gaps as well, so I had to do the filling, priming and painting all over again.

 

6809 is in lined black. I'd seen one photo of an unidentified Grange in this livery at St Austell. I've no idea whether 6809 itself ever carried it but I like it, so there.

 

6824 is another standard Hornby model, which used to be numbered 6825. Read on...

 

6825 is one of the later Hornby models with a small tender, which is where the decoder lives. I've got photos of 6825 in this form and colour so I pinched its identity from what is now 6824.

 

6836 is another original Hornby model. I see that the cylinders have gone seriously cock-eyed. I'll have to fix that.

 

6860, finally, is also a standard Hornby model, which like 6824 came factory weathered.

[Neal Ball]

10 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Robin @gwrrob, Kevin @KNP and  John @checkrail have been showcasing their Grange fleets recently, so I said I would do the same. I have six, all 83G Penzance engines, shown here in numerical order:

 

6800 is a completely standard Hornby model. Apart from fitting a decoder, fitting a DG coupling and renumbering/renaming I haven't done any work on it yet (which is also true of most of the others, I'm afraid).

 

6809, on the other hand, involved a lot more (too much) effort.

 

When I was on a weekly commute between home in Polesworth and work in Croydon, over 25 years ago, I wanted something to stop me going to the pub every night. I'd bought a K's Grange Bodyline kit some time earlier and in those days Bachmann sold loco chassis as spares. So I bought a Manor chassis and built the Grange body to fit. What a palaver that was, because the firebox wasn't wide enough inside to clear the Bachmann mechanism. Even after thinning the cast sides as much as I dared, there wasn't room. In the end, I had to leave a gap between the firebox halves and fill it later.

 

That wasn't all. Back home, I painted the loco but it didn't look very good, so I stripped the paint and primer with Nitromors. Unfortunately, that stripped out all the filler I'd used to fill various gaps as well, so I had to do the filling, priming and painting all over again.

 

6809 is in lined black. I'd seen one photo of an unidentified Grange in this livery at St Austell. I've no idea whether 6809 itself ever carried it but I like it, so there.

 

6824 is another standard Hornby model, which used to be numbered 6825. Read on...

 

6825 is one of the later Hornby models with a small tender, which is where the decoder lives. I've got photos of 6825 in this form and colour so I pinched its identity from what is now 6824.

 

6836 is another original Hornby model. I see that the cylinders have gone seriously cock-eyed. I'll have to fix that.

 

6860, finally, is also a standard Hornby model, which like 6824 came factory weathered.

 

I'm feeling Grange envy - I only have the one :-(