Hand building 7mm plain line and switches advice please

[Great Western]

Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I've a couple of really stupid beginners questions I'm hoping your combined wisdom and experience can assist me with.

 

My story I'm a first time o gauge railway modeller, who doesn't want to be a slave to the PECO corporation (joke), so I've decided to have a crack at building my own track and point work.

 

I plan in having two complete circles or track around my garage, which measures circa 35ft continue track for each line, so circa 70ft in total for both up and down lines. Plus a crossover on each side, with two sidings in the inside off the inner running line. So I'm need at least four standard turnouts, and maybe to save space a double slip crossing the inner running line into the sidings.

 

I've brought some PECO set track curves which Id use a guide to get the curves right, there circa a 8ft half circle at each end of the two running lines.

 

So, my stupid questions....please bare with me and if you can answer, please do in very basic terms.

 

Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve?

 

Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.

 

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course?

 

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?

 

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ?

 

And finally....

 

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?

I'm looking for a complete kit in a bag basically, with very clear instructions aimed at the technically challenged like myself.

 

Kind Regards

Great Western.

[Western Star]

Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve?

 

Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.

 

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course?

 

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?

 

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ?

 

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?

I'm looking for a complete kit in a bag basically, with very clear instructions aimed at the technically challenged like myself.

 

So to try and answer your questions:-

 

 

* Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve? Yes, I do.  Build a half-piece of sleepers plus the outer rail, lay to curve, cut and lay inner rail.

 

* Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.  No problems with leaving track on a template as long as the sleepers / timbers are secured to the template and the template is held firmly in contact with the baseboard.

 

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course? Yes.  Easier and quicker if you have someone to sit by you.  Where are you based.

 

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?  Not sure what you mean here...  wiring electrically for the common crossing or mechanically for movement of the switch blades?

 

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ? No although I have built a 1:8 diamond.

 

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?  C&L Finescale does kits for turnouts, buy parts for plain line from same place.

 

I'm looking for a complete kit in a bag basically, with very clear instructions aimed at the technically challenged like myself.  Search for a topic in the PW forum by Hayfield.

[peter220950]

Hi G.W.

 

welcome to the wonderful world of O, hope you find it as rewarding as I do.

 

Let me put my two ‘penorth in to answer some of your questions, and hopefully be of some use. There’s a lot to answer there and rather than refer you to a load of other observations I have made elsewhere I will regurgitate some of it again here.

 

As a starting point I would just raise a couple of general points :-

 

• You don’t have to be a slave to Peco, C&L make plain track which  is arguably better, having the rails canted as per the prototype, if I recall. It’s comparable in price as well.
• I am assuming you are going for track with glued chairs and sleepers, rather than rail soldered to Printed Circuit board strip?
• Have you thought this through! – with just the two circuits, 70 ft of track, you are in for, by my reckoning, over 2000 sleepers and 4500 chairs. This is going to be a bit of a ball-ache, and it’s unlikely to be cheaper than manufactured flexi-track. Try making a length or two then review, it’s not something most sane people do, though I have to say I am doing it on my main layout) Flexi-track is very good for main lines.

 

On then to specific questions, but not in your order:-

 

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?

 

I’m not aware of plain line kits as such, though the components are available from C&L, plain chairs, sleepers, and rail. You can use plastic sleepers or timber, I prefer to get my own cut in hardwood, but you can use ply. I built a small jig to help put the plain track lengths together.

 

Point kits are available from C&L and come as a bag of bits, with planed rails and pre-soldered vees. You might, when you are feeling brave, want to have a go at making the whole thing yourself, it’s not that difficult, and can save quite a bit of cost.

 

Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve?

 

Yes, but you don’t necessarily have to, you can either make up 1 rail glued to sleepers and bend it, laying the second rail when in place, make up sections and bend them to shape as with Flexi-track, or lay directly onto a template on the boards.

 

Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.

 

Iwould advocate having a look at Templot, I personally don’t seem to get on with it, but that’s my problem, for some reason I just can’t seem to produce what I want, but there are many who produce great results, so have a look.

 

It’s good for not only producing templates for pointwork, but for the whole layout, marking out all the sleepering etc. It’s used by a lot of the great tracklayers, so if you can get into it it’s well worth the effort, it will also sort out transition curves and the like. The templates can be left on the track, it may work better on cork underlay than the closed cell foam I use, but there’s no reason why it shouldn’t stay. I would generally produce at least the points on the bench, on a rigid flat surface like melamine covered mdf, but again I have put them down in-situ, it’s just sometimes harder to get at.

 

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course?

 

No reason why not as long as you get some track gauges, again it’s not that difficult, if I can do it anyone can. With kit points the hard work is done for you (Vees).

 

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?

 

The frog and associated wing rails are isolated from the rest of the trackwork and left and right rails are alternately switched through the frog, depending on direction, with manual control people often use sliding switches to both control the switching and the control rod, and some of the lever frames incorporate switching.

 

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ?

 

At that point you lose me, I can’t say I’ve ever had the need to try, but it is done, and successfully, - after all it’s the same principles as a normal point, just a few more bits, as long as you don’t start with trying to make one you should be o.k.

 

 

Hope this helps a bit, try not to dive in with a massive project and get disheartened, if there’s a small siding and a point or two start on that to get experience and something to play with quickly.

 

Good luck, don't be afraid to ask, and keep us up to date with progress.

 

Peter

[ZiderHead]

Just to throw something else into the mix, 7mm C&L flexi is quite a bit cheaper per yard than building plain track yourself from C&L components (and infinitely quicker!) and it looks great.

 

AnyRail is quick to learn and will let you easily design your layout with proper transitions out of curves, although you will need to crack Templot if you want to design your own custom or complex track work.

[Great Western]

So to try and answer your questions:-

 

 

* Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve? Yes, I do.  Build a half-piece of sleepers plus the outer rail, lay to curve, cut and lay innerail.

* Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.  No problems with leaving track on a template as long as the sleepers / timbers are secured to the template and the template is held firmly in contact with the baseboard.

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course? Yes.  Easier and quicker if you have someone to sit by you.  Where are you based.

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?  Not sure what you mean here...  wiring electrically for the common crossing or mechanically for movement of the switch blades?

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ? No although I have built a 1:8 diamond.

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?  C&L Finescale does kits for turnouts, buy parts for plain line from same place.

 

I'm looking for a complete kit in a bag basically, with very clear instructions aimed at the technically challenged like myself.  Search for a topic in the PW forum by Heathfield.

Thank you very much for that Western Star.

 

Regards to wiring them, I should have been clearer. I meant for DCC operation, with a Peco point I would use plastic fishplates on all the ends then wire the feeds to the toe end to provide power. Would this be the same principle for kit built ones?

 

Oh, and I'm South Wales. I've googled C&L and it appears they're in Bristol about 30 miles via the bridge from me!

 

Regards

[Great Western]

Hi G.W.

 

welcome to the wonderful world of O, hope you find it as rewarding as I do.

 

Let me put my two ‘penorth in to answer some of your questions, and hopefully be of some use. There’s a lot to answer there and rather than refer you to a load of other observations I have made elsewhere I will regurgitate some of it again here.

 

As a starting point I would just raise a couple of general points :-

 

 

• You don’t have to be a slave to Peco, C&L make plain track which  is arguably better, having the rails canted as per the prototype, if I recall. It’s comparable in price as well.
• I am assuming you are going for track with glued chairs and sleepers, rather than rail soldered to Printed Circuit board strip?
• Have you thought this through! – with just the two circuits, 70 ft of track, you are in for, by my reckoning, over 2000 sleepers and 4500 chairs. This is going to be a bit of a ball-ache, and it’s unlikely to be cheaper than manufactured flexi-track. Try making a length or two then review, it’s not something most sane people do, though I have to say I am doing it on my main layout) Flexi-track is very good for main lines.

 

On then to specific questions, but not in your order:-

 

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?

 

I’m not aware of plain line kits as such, though the components are available from C&L, plain chairs, sleepers, and rail. You can use plastic sleepers or timber, I prefer to get my own cut in hardwood, but you can use ply. I built a small jig to help put the plain track lengths together.

 

Point kits are available from C&L and come as a bag of bits, with planed rails and pre-soldered vees. You might, when you are feeling brave, want to have a go at making the whole thing yourself, it’s not that difficult, and can save quite a bit of cost.

 

Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve?

 

Yes, but you don’t necessarily have to, you can either make up 1 rail glued to sleepers and bend it, laying the second rail when in place, make up sections and bend them to shape as with Flexi-track, or lay directly onto a template on the boards.

 

Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.

 

Iwould advocate having a look at Templot, I personally don’t seem to get on with it, but that’s my problem, for some reason I just can’t seem to produce what I want, but there are many who produce great results, so have a look.

 

It’s good for not only producing templates for pointwork, but for the whole layout, marking out all the sleepering etc. It’s used by a lot of the great tracklayers, so if you can get into it it’s well worth the effort, it will also sort out transition curves and the like. The templates can be left on the track, it may work better on cork underlay than the closed cell foam I use, but there’s no reason why it shouldn’t stay. I would generally produce at least the points on the bench, on a rigid flat surface like melamine covered mdf, but again I have put them down in-situ, it’s just sometimes harder to get at.

 

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course?

 

No reason why not as long as you get some track gauges, again it’s not that difficult, if I can do it anyone can. With kit points the hard work is done for you (Vees).

 

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?

 

The frog and associated wing rails are isolated from the rest of the trackwork and left and right rails are alternately switched through the frog, depending on direction, with manual control people often use sliding switches to both control the switching and the control rod, and some of the lever frames incorporate switching.

 

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ?

 

At that point you lose me, I can’t say I’ve ever had the need to try, but it is done, and successfully, - after all it’s the same principles as a normal point, just a few more bits, as long as you don’t start with trying to make one you should be o.k.

 

 

Hope this helps a bit, try not to dive in with a massive project and get disheartened, if there’s a small siding and a point or two start on that to get experience and something to play with quickly.

 

Good luck, don't be afraid to ask, and keep us up to date with progress.

 

Peter

Thanks Peter, I'll admit I hadn't thought about the 4000+ chairs and 2000+ sleepers ! I reckon I might just do the sides 12 ft long in kit for, then use the Peco flexi for the curves ? Are the two compatible, providing you use the correct rail profiles of course?

I'm defiantly going to get two kits for one for the crossovers and see how I go, I've been watching a few threads on here, doesn't look to taxing as long as you take your time, a little at a time.

 

Regards

[Western Star]

Regards to wiring them, I should have been clearer. I meant for DCC operation, with a Peco point I would use plastic fishplates on all the ends then wire the feeds to the toe end to provide power. Would this be the same principle for kit built ones?

I build my own turnouts - because I choose to use S7 standards - and I run DCC.  I use Exactoscale ABS fishplates at the toe (2) and heel (4) of a turnout and at the join between the closure rails and the common crossing (2).  I bond the closure and switch rails to the adjacent stock rails and manage power to the common crossing by using the contact sets of the switch motor (read as Fulgurex / Tortoise / others are available).

 

regards, Graham

[Western Star]

I suggest that you purchase one kit to see how you get one with the task...  and if you want to continue in that direction then you may benefit from a telephone call to C&L and discuss your needs.  For example, each "turnout in a bag" from C&L includes a couple of track gauges and you may find that you do not get on with the plastic timbers which are supplied with those kits (noting that the ABS timbering is thicker than the Exactoscale 1.6mm ply sleepers).

[Simond]

I'll add my welcome!

 

To the comments above, I'd add that you can also use Marcway components / kits / ready-built, but these are PCB sleepers, so not as representative as the C&L stuff but probably quicker to build, and more robust.

 

There is usually second-hand Peco flexi (and points, come to that) available at shows, on the GoG site, maybe on eBay too. If you re-space the sleepers, it's not bad, and might be cheaper.

 

Wiring as above - Should be exactly the same as Peco. I recommend that blades and closure rails are bonded, the frog/crossing should be isolated from the closure rails and the exit tracks, and supplied via a polarity change-over switch (which might be in a point motor or a microswitch operated by the tie bar) or a "frog juicer" which is an expensive but simple solution for DCC.

 

I will put up some diagrams for slips/compounds in a day or two, as I'm doing them for Martyn (3-link), I'll add a link here when I do.

 

Best

Simon

[ZiderHead]

I reckon I might just do the sides 12 ft long in kit for, then use the Peco flexi for the curves ? Are the two compatible, providing you use the correct rail profiles of course?

 

C&L flexi is slightly more expensive than Peco but to my eyes looks better and will perfectly match the track work you build, plus you're supporting a company that makes products designed for UK modellers rather than wilfully ignoring their needs!

 

Since C&L now sell Peco stuff too you could just order a length of both (or all 3 if you want to check out the steel rail) and compare them.

 

 

Edit: You may also want to consider building your turnouts to O-MF standard (31.5mm), plenty of discussion about it on here, just search for "O-MF" and use the Google Site Search option  

[steve fay]

C&L is the way to go, it looks much better. If you can do a templot plan of your layout you can print out the points in full size. Put the plans down on the board and build them in place.

What are you planning to model?

I'm using the Exactoscale GWR 2 bolt chairs as I'm modelling the Western Region.

It's the Bristol O gauge show in two weeks, that's definetley worth a visit.

Where abouts in South Wales are you ?

I'm in Cwmbran

[martin_wynne]

If you buy turnout kits from C&L, check with them which track gauges are included.

 

C&L supply two different track gauges for 0 gauge -- 31mm gauge with 1.25mm flangeways; or 32mm with 1.75mm flangeways.

 

Neither of those are recommended -- most people hand-building 7mm track now go for 0-MF (or S7).

 

0-MF is 31.5mm gauge with 1.5mm flangeways. This gives much improved running while accepting almost all existing GOG-Fine wheels. You will find endless discussions on RMweb about the relative merits, but everyone using 0-MF is delighted with the results. 0-MF gauges are available from Debs of this parish, see:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/user/13493-debs/

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Siberian Snooper]

There is one more supplier which no one else has mentioned and that is Marcway, they do kits and bits also fully built turnouts etc. as well. I think it is mostly copper clad construction where the rails to copper clad sleepers. I cut my teeth on this form of construction, it has the advantage that it is quick and easy to make small adjustments with a quick dab of the iron. The downside is finding the shorts, where you haven't cut through the copper completely.

 

Whatever method used a good set of gauges is essential.

[Great Western]

C&L is the way to go, it looks much better. If you can do a templot plan of your layout you can print out the points in full size. Put the plans down on the board and build them in place.

What are you planning to model?

I'm using the Exactoscale GWR 2 bolt chairs as I'm modelling the Western Region.

It's the Bristol O gauge show in two weeks, that's definetley worth a visit.

Where abouts in South Wales are you ?

I'm in Cwmbran

I've had a good look at C&L the kits are circa £60-110 each, deepening on what you want. Which seems quite steep to be fair. I'm only building a fancy test track really. O at the bottom, and then OO and N at the top on a shelf. Oh and I'm a little further south of you Steve, about 20 minutes if the traffic is bad ,

 

Great Western

[peter220950]

I've had a good look at C&L the kits are circa £60-110 each, deepening on what you want.

 

 

Ouch, now I know why I build my own - hadn't realised they were that much. It might  be worth getting one to learn how it's done, then either fabricate the whole thing yourself, or just buy the pre-made crossings and buy sleepers, rail and chairs in packs.

 

To be fair you probably get more stuff than you need in a pack, and you get track gauges as well.

[ZiderHead]

I've had a good look at C&L the kits are circa £60-110 each, deepening on what you want. Which seems quite steep to be fair.

 

The kits include everything plus templates and a couple of roller gauges.

 

If you go for the chair/timber set, the machined switch/vee set and stretcher bars it works out at about £30 a turnout plus some rail. Much cheaper and you can build it to whatever gauge/flange gap you want

[raymw]

Depending on what workshop facilities you can use, if you go the soldered pcb route, it's not much money. Get a sheet of copperclad and cut it into sleeper width strips (bandsaw or guillotine 18inch by 12inch for about a tenner +delivery from  http://www.megauk.com/pcb_laminates.php  ), second hand or new Peco/C&L rail (I used rail stripped from from Peco track, so that was about £3 per metre) home made jigs (plywood and screws, or slots  in ali bar). I'm not at all bothered by right number of bolts in chairs, (nor even chairs, I guess), but I far more enjoyed making my copperclad pointwork, crude though it is, compared to glueing the C&L chairs - and soldered is stronger, and doesn't fall apart (at least, not yet) when taken from the building board. 

[Simond]

I recently built a C&L tandem on a Templot plan, which compares usefully with the Marcway tandem I built some 10 years ago - please see my postings , links below:

 

Best

Simon

[hayfield]

Use Peco or C&L flexi track, especially if its a test track. Why not try and buy second hand track.

 

If its cost they build the turnouts from copperclad strip, a pack of sleepers will make between 2 & 3 turnouts and I guess a pack of rail will build between 3 or 4 turnouts. By making the common crossings and switch rails yourself you will save a lot of money. You can build more detailed turnouts using C&L/Exactoscale parts which if bought in component packs will be much cheaper than kits

 

If its a test track I would just buy second hand track initially and or build copperclad construction turnouts.

 

The electrics can be simple, as can the switching mechanism for the tiebar which can be easily built by the average modeller. 

[hayfield]

Great Western

 

A few more thoughts as my reply was late last night

 

I've brought some PECO set track curves which Id use a guide to get the curves right, there circa a 8ft half circle at each end of the two running lines.

 

It is quite easy to make card/plastic/wooden formers yourself, so dont think you have to stick to set radii

So, my stupid questions....please bare with me and if you can answer, please do in very basic terms.

Can I lay hand built (kit) plain line round a curve?

 

Yes its far more expensive, ready to run track is far more cost effective. Second hand is more economical

Is it easier to print out a template from the Internet, and then construct the kit plain line and switches over the top ? Are there any issues with leaving the template under the track when it's all built.

 

Peco plans are down loadable, Templot will produce turnouts of varying size and radii, will also print plain track at any reasonable radii

Can a complete beginner make a useable turnout first time, with care and attention of course?

 

Yes, plenty of help and threads on this forum for track building, 0 gauge is just a bit bigger than 4 mm scale. Fairly easy to build a simple turnout provided you follow a few simple steps

How do wire the turnouts, I don't intend on motorising them. Maybe some kind of rod work connected to a panel mounted frame?

 

Again lots of differing ways of switching the turnout manually as well as electrically. Simplest way is a piece of metal rod in a plastic sleeve/tube connected to the tiebar

The double slips, just the thought sends terror down my spin! Has anyone built own successfully ?

 

These are a bit more difficult to build, but not impossible. Just get a few turnouts under your bent first

Can someone recommend a source of switch and plain line kits please?
I'm looking for a complete kit in a bag basically, with very clear instructions aimed at the technically challenged like myself.

 

You are better off buying the components separately, these are C&L prices

10m of nickelsilver rail £27 (3 to 4 turnouts depending on their size)

Pack of copperclad timber strip £12 (somewhere around 3 turnouts

Plans from Templot (free but Martin would appreciate a donation), unlimited

You will also need some track gauges
C&L do turnout kits which are chairs and sleepers only at £16, you supply your own rail and make the crossings and slide rails. These can be build-able by the inexperienced modeller providing they follow the tuition available either in print, on-line or face to face (normally at clubs)

 

I would suggest the best starting place is to have a go with copperclad construction first, especially if its a test track
 

 

 

[hartleymartin]

As someone who has hand built some 60 yards of plain track for an exhibition layout, using timber sleepers, flatbottom rail and 4 spikes in every sleeper, I can tell you that ready to lay plain track is a better option and save your time and money and put it into makng nice points.

[steve fay]

Phil, Brush type 4 of Intentio designs can laser cut sleepers from temp-lot for your turn outs of you have a big junction.

[Donw]

A few comments as most of it has been said.

 

Most people who try build points sucessfully.

 

Copper clad PCB sleepers with the rail soldered to them have the advantage for the novice that they are easy to adjust. I did find with a sharp chisel I could lift the plastic chairs and re stick once but not as easy to adjust as the soldered ones.

 

It is much cheaper to file up your own blades and crossings I made a simple jig for the crossing from a piece of wood and panel pins. Use a decent size file then finish of with a finer one otherwise it takes too long to file the blades. Bullhead rail is much easier to work with than FB.

 

If you want a turnout off a fixed radius curve Templot will do a template create a turnout (suggest a B6) then curve the main line to the radius you want. Print off and use.

I can send you one if you are stuck.

 

Double slips are best attempted once you have some experience.

 

Don