Unusual PW configurations thread both real and model.

[jim.snowdon]

It's been done, many times, including operation of trolleybuses over underground light rail lines in some cases, eg Essen.

 

Jim

[Coryton]

I'm pretty sure it's either been done or is on the "Drawing Board".

 

I believe trolleybuses in Bergen have small diesel engines to keep them moving without power. It wouldn't make much sense for these to use mechanical transmission.

 

I'm sure this isn't the only example but it's the one I've come across.

[russ p]

There was an electro diesel trolley bus in this country .

It's preserved at the sandtoft museum in working order

 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:SYPTE_trolleybus_2450_(C45_HDT)

[AndyID]

We seem to be veering "off the rails" a bit. I see there is a trolley buses topic although it's been a while since anyone posted on it.

[jim.snowdon]

We seem to be veering "off the rails" a bit. I see there is a trolley buses topic although it's been a while since anyone posted on it.

Trolleybus, aka "trackless trolley" or "railless electric traction", thus at least preserving a tenuous link to track, or rather, lack of it. Of course, the intricacies of trolleybus overhead is a subject of its own, which is probably the best place to leave it.

 

Jim

[Re6/6]

An interesting very basic method of changing the road at Penrhyn Quarry.

 

Again, an good subject to model!

 

Pic from a Bradford Barton book: Memories of Steam Around Britain by Lynch.

[Budgie]

An interesting very basic method of changing the road at Penrhyn Quarry.

 

Again, an good subject to model!

Do you think Peco might be persuaded to make one of these in their 009 range?

[Brian Harrap]

The flangeway with the double groove marks is on a sharply curved route through this crossing. I don't think it is generally recognised that the trailing wheels of  a four wheeled truck or chassis follow a differing route to the leading wheels going round curves. The leading wheels hug the outside of the curve whilst the trailing wheels hug the inside. Being aware of this helps greatly when modelling sharply curved model crossing work. B

Another example of leading and trailing wheelsets following differing trajectories can be seen at the Budapest transport museum.B

[Re6/6]

Will we see an example on Quai 87 along with the 'docks points' mentioned previously?

[rjh]

Helo,

 

1.

Simple line drawings of many pointwork variants

http://www.gauge0guild.com/manual/02_2_2_Pointwork.pdf

 

2.

one that got away, the Barry Slip

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2583&forum_id=11&highlight=barry+slip

 

 

regards, Rodney Hills

[jim.snowdon]

Another example of leading and trailing wheelsets following differing trajectories can be seen at the Budapest transport museum.B

Just as significant is that it is an example of deliberately letting the out wheel run on its flanges whilst the inner wheel runs on its tread, with guidance provided by the guard rail. This allows the wheelset to run at a very high conicity, which in turn allows it to rolll round a very tight curve without the same level of scrubbing that would occur if both wheels were running on their treads. Although not common, it is very much a tramway device, if only because only tramways have curve radii that are so small as to make it worthwhile. However, I was given to understand, many years ago, that the same technique had been employed on some of the very tight curves on the Paris Metro, where the wheelsets were deliberately allowed to flange-climb (as in derailing) until the outer flanges ran on the rail head, wit actual derailment prevented by the action of the guard rail on the backs of the inner flanges.

 

Jim

[Pacific231G]

An interesting very basic method of changing the road at Penrhyn Quarry.

 

Again, an good subject to model!

 

001.JPG

Pic from a Bradford Barton book: Memories of Steam Around Britain by Lynch.

Stub switches like this used to be very common in N.America even on main lines. Their disadvantages are that it's very hard to get the rails precisely aligned, so a sharp blow was delivered at the joint every time a wheel ran over it, and the gap can vary widely with temperature, sometimes jamming the switch in very hot weather. They were never suitable for higher speeds but were cheap and were also less prone to being jammed by ice, which was an advantage in the harsh winter conditions of N.America. I assume that in a quarry that would also apply to avoiding stones getting lodged between the switch and stock rails but it couldn't have been that much of an advantage as they don't appear in either the Decauville or Hudson catalogues going back to 1890. Around the end of the nineteenth century it was estimated that half the derailments on US Railroads were caused by stub switches but they did survive for a long time on narrow gauge and short lines.

However, if Loughborough University has its way they may be about to make a come back in a re-engineered form.

http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/12/31/reliability-through-redundancy/

 

.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Pacific231G

[jim.snowdon]

I recall the Dinorwic Quarry wagons as being fitted with double flanged wheels, in which case stub switches, and moveable crossings, were something of a necessity.

 

For the same reasons, albeit it in a quite different form of permanent way, stub switches are still required in the overhead wiring for trolleybuses and those tramways that still use trolley pole collection.

 

Jim

[Pacific231G]

I recall the Dinorwic Quarry wagons as being fitted with double flanged wheels, in which case stub switches, and moveable crossings, were something of a necessity.

 

For the same reasons, albeit it in a quite different form of permanent way, stub switches are still required in the overhead wiring for trolleybuses and those tramways that still use trolley pole collection.

 

Jim

Hi Jim

Some of them certainly were and John's example in #232 does appear to have the rodding to control a switched frog as well as the switch itself.

 

There are some examples of double flanged wheeled wagons at Stonehenge on the Leighton Buzzard line and I think they're from a Welsh slate quarry but I'm not sure which one. One wheel was loose (within limits) on the axle and they were used with very temporary track at the quarry faces whose gauge could be rather vague. Elsewhere though where the track could be more permanent wagons used for example for dressed slate were single flanged

The Penrhyn Quarry Railway are building a stub switch but that seems to be for single flanged wheels and has a conventional frog but this site goes into the question in some detail.

http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/trackwork.html

This is interesting as you clearly can design a fixed crossing for double flanged wheels especially in siutations where wagons were pushed by hand and could be "encouraged" to take the desired route at a facing point. I'm not sure how feasible that would be on loco hauled sections for double flanged wheels of floating gauge. I think it might depend on the crossing angle but switched crossings were used in places where single and double flanged vehicles used the same track.

 

Tramways using trolley poles could often rely on passive trolley frogs as the path of the vehicle was fixed and the position of the trolley pole was predictable but the path of a trolleybus was much vaguer. I found a 1936 patent from one of Westinghouse's engineers for an improved way of controlling this. 

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US2157859

 

On the extensive electric canal haulage railways in North and East France current pick up was from a weighted trolley that ran along the overhead wire connected to the tractor by a long insulated cable on a sprung drum. Where these did have to handle points (usually just at depots, layover sidings near tunnels and for where the towpath had to cross the canal) the driver had to use a pole hook to lift the trolley onto the appropriate wire which were normally mounted one above the other until they diverged

Some quieter canals were equipped with rubber tyred trolley tractors that needed two wires but I think the drivers just had to use their pole hook to place the trollies on each of the two overhead wires

Edited October 13, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

So what do you all make of this one?

 

The right hand rail is grooved tramway inset into the floor and that includes the switch tongue but the other is plain rail with just the top face exposed and no flangeway. Note the crossing

It's one of the oddest railways I've personally come across but I think I know why it was built this way.

Clue. It's not a funicular.

 

So far as I can tell, this is the only surviving piece of rolling stock

 

Care to hazard a guess as to this railway's purpose and its rather odd configuration with only one flanged wheel on each axle which had to be specially supplied. It's nothing to do with gauge but probably a lot to do with cost 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Re6/6]

I'd like that in my sitting room floor!

[Re6/6]

Going off the reservation a bit l thought that this was intriguing!

 

One has to wonder why. lt would be assumed that it had an auxiliary l.C engine for manoeuvering.

 

It might interest 'you-know-who'!

 

 

P.S. After searching a bit a few systems turned out to be fairly widespread.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_boat  ...in fact one survives.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straussee_Ferry

Edited October 13, 2016 by Re6/6

[PatB]

So what do you all make of this one?

A& M points 1.jpg

A&M points 2.jpg

 

The right hand rail is grooved tramway inset into the floor and that includes the switch tongue but the other is plain rail with just the top face exposed and no flangeway. Note the crossing

It's one of the oddest railways I've personally come across but I think I know why it was built this way.

Clue. It's not a funicular.

 

So far as I can tell, this is the only surviving piece of rolling stock

A&M bogie.jpg

 

Care to hazard a guess as to this railway's purpose and its rather odd configuration with only one flanged wheel on each axle which had to be specially supplied. It's nothing to do with gauge but probably a lot to do with cost 

 

I'm thinking library or records office, but the circular thingy on top of the wagon makes me wonder if it's some sort of catering arrangement for carrying cauldrons of food for large numbers of people.

[Guy Rixon]

So what do you all make of this one? [...]

Care to hazard a guess as to this railway's purpose and its rather odd configuration with only one flanged wheel on each axle which had to be specially supplied. It's nothing to do with gauge but probably a lot to do with cost 

 

 

Is it for moving ammunition around a warship?

 

EDIT - Second guess: it's in an astronomical observatory. The bogie with the round load-bed would be about right for moving a primary mirror when it had to be taken out for aluminizing. It would be an older observatory (wooden floor rather than concrete) with telescopes that are rather small by modern standards - below 1m class.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Guy Rixon

[PatB]

Is it for moving ammunition around a warship?

 

EDIT - Second guess: it's in an astronomical observatory. The bogie with the round load-bed would be about right for moving a primary mirror when it had to be taken out for aluminizing. It would be an older observatory (wooden floor rather than concrete) with telescopes that are rather small by modern standards - below 1m class.

 

Observatory was my third choice. Or at least some scientific/laboratory type connection.

[Pacific231G]

Going off the reservation a bit l thought that this was intriguing!

 

One has to wonder why. lt would be assumed that it had an auxiliary l.C engine for manoeuvering.

 

It might interest 'you-know-who'!

 

Trolleyboat_on_the_Teltow_Canal.jpg

 

P.S. After searching a bit a few systems turned out to be fairly widespread.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_boat  ...in fact one survives.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straussee_Ferry

I think there are two more still operating in France to pull powered craft through tunnels with inadequate ventilation for them to use their on engines.

One is on the Rhine-Marne Canal at Mauvages where the tunnel is almost five kilometres long and the other runs through the even longer five and a half kilometre Riqueval tunnel on the St. Quentin Canal between St. Quentin and Cambrai. These are both chain tugs that pull themselves along a chain laid along the floor of the tunnel as these clips clearly show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwKwsIBYQFo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkDl7c8hP2g

 

The Tetlow boat was propellor driven but the Tetlow Canal was also one of the only canals outside France to use a towing railway over any length.

[Pacific231G]

Is it for moving ammunition around a warship?

 

EDIT - Second guess: it's in an astronomical observatory. The bogie with the round load-bed would be about right for moving a primary mirror when it had to be taken out for aluminizing. It would be an older observatory (wooden floor rather than concrete) with telescopes that are rather small by modern standards - below 1m class.

Nice ideas but wrong, at least in this case.(I don't know about warships but Decauville did supply complete railways for use around artillery batteries that could carry both shells and gun barrels)

 

Pat B came closest. The railway is actually in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris which is in a former chateau and was used for moving heavy exhibition items around the various galleries, teaching spaces and  lecture theatres without damaging the wooden floors.

 

The 500mm gauge trackwork, and hand propelled wagons, were supplied by Decauville towards the end of the nineteenth century but it took me a while to figure out why the museum used such an unusual arrangement for an inset track of one grooved and one plain rail with no flangeway.

 

The railway would only have been used when heavy objects needed to be moved around so would never have needed more than a few wagons, possibly no more than a pair of bogies, along with a carrying platform for the exhibits, on each floor (I don't know whether there was a lift equipped with rails)  Supplying a small number of what looks like their type 60 bogie with one plain and one flanged wheel on each axle would have been non-standard but staightforward enough for Decauville

 

However the track, which ran on both the ground and first floors of the museum and out through a former chapel to an outside door,  would have totalled several hundred metres. The points were obviously simpler needing only a single moveable blade on the grooved side to switch them and there would only be one groove to gather dirt or to be filled with a flexible strip when the railway wasn't being used, but the penny (centime?) dropped when I looked at prices. 500mm gauge track using grooved (Broca) tramway rail was almost double the price of track made with flat bottom rail.  By building the entire railway with one grooved and one plain rail the museum would have saved very considerably on the total cost of the railway.

This turntable is a standard Decauvlle model but with the casting slightly modified

 

Decauville were past masters at providing railways for an extraordinarily wide range of clients* so It was probably they who came up with the idea of this hybrid track to make the railway affordable. At the same time they would probably have been rather pleased to see their products on display in such a prestigious location associated with industrial design and education. I have though never heard of this system being used anywhere else, library stacks would be an obvious candidate as indeed would telescope mirrors.

 

The railway probably hadn't been used for many years and the museum was closed for renovation for at elast ten years. When it reopened in 2000 the Architect had kept a considerable proportion of the railway as a feature and following it around the galleries is quite good fun. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Jaggzuk]

"The railway is actually in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris" - just fantastic!!! Did not expect that.

 

What a find, great they kept it, quite beautify really with the way the floor boards are laid, especially round the corners.  An incredible museum.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mus%C3%A9e_des_Arts_et_M%C3%A9tiers_13,_Paris.JPG

 

Thanks

[Coryton]

However the track, which ran on both the ground and first floors of the museum and out through a former chapel to an outside door,  would have totalled several hundred metres. The points were obviously simpler needing only a single moveable blade on the grooved side to switch them and there would only be one groove to gather dirt or to be filled with a flexible strip when the railway wasn't being used, but the penny (centime?) dropped when I looked at prices. 500mm gauge track using grooved (Broca) tramway rail was almost double the price of track made with flat bottom rail.  By building the entire railway with one grooved and one plain rail the museum would have saved very considerably on the total cost of the railway.

This turntable is a standard Decauvlle model but with the casting slightly modified

 

 

Fascinating.

 

One "point" though - points with a single movable blade don't need this track scheme - it's not unknown historically on tramways using normally flanged wheels (in both real and model form).

[AndyID]

So what do you all make of this one?

A& M points 1.jpg

A&M points 2.jpg

 

The right hand rail is grooved tramway inset into the floor and that includes the switch tongue but the other is plain rail with just the top face exposed and no flangeway. Note the crossing

It's one of the oddest railways I've personally come across but I think I know why it was built this way.

Clue. It's not a funicular.

 

So far as I can tell, this is the only surviving piece of rolling stock

A&M bogie.jpg

 

Care to hazard a guess as to this railway's purpose and its rather odd configuration with only one flanged wheel on each axle which had to be specially supplied. It's nothing to do with gauge but probably a lot to do with cost 

 

I wonder if the flangless wheel was also used to reduce friction on small radius curves? Would it also have been free to rotate on the axle?