Midland Railway Company

[Northroader]

Please sir, a question on your use of “offside” and “nearside” for a van, as it not a term I seen applied to a railway vehicle before?

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Please sir, a question on your use of “offside” and “nearside” for a van, as it not a term I seen applied to a railway vehicle before?

 

Sorry, that's just my shorthand and not a technical term I've seen used elsewhere. For wagons with brake blocks on one side only, I think of the side with the brakes as being the "nearside":

 

 

[Embedded link to DY2494 at Derby Registers pages of MRS website.]

 

The other side, which on this wagon has nothing in the brake department, I think of as the "offside":

 

 

[Embedded link to DY2493, ibid.]

 

On could just call these the "brake" and "no brake" sides.

 

The first application of eitherside brakes on the Midland saw no change in the arrangement of the brake blocks but the use of the Morton clutch on both sides, with a brake lever facing to the left on the "offside". It seems ambiguous to describe this side as the "no brake" side since, although there were no brake blocks, there was a brake lever.

 

Subsequently, in order to have the offside brake lever facing the right, the Midland started using the Morton cam on that side.

 

The Morton brake needed a cross-shaft spanning the width of the underframe and hence could not be used for wagons with bottom doors. From c. 1905 the Midland equipped new-built wagons with bottom doors with independent brakes on each side, with a brake block to every wheel; from 1909 that became the standard arrangement for all new wagons. In this arrangement the brake gear is the same on both sides and the distinction between nearside and offside breaks down.

[billbedford]

Shouldn't this wagon be labelled "Do Not Hump Shunt"?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

Shouldn't this wagon be labelled "Do Not Hump Shunt"?

 

It would be sheeted in transit, which would help stop anything falling off the top. Anyway, I don't think there was any hump shunting in Midland yards as early as 1903, when this photo was taken, although I'm not sure when it was introduced at Toton - certainly in Midland days.

 

This photo and several others were evidently taken as part of a "how to load wagons" series but I've not come across any Midland document in which they were used. 

[DenysW]

Ahrons (p72, also Fig 74 on p73) gives details of two Midland Railway Cramptons of 1848. The Figure shows a number of 130 on a small plate on the loco, and a wheelbase just under 16 ft.

 

What happened to these? The number130 was used/re-used in 1852 for a class of 2-2-2s with the same size cylinders, to be used for express passenger duties.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Full details are in the British Loco Catalogue Vol 3A by Baxter (1982, Moorland).

Basically:

Built by Thompson & Hewitson - 6 ordered in 1847 but only 2 built. Originally numbered 101 & 102 in error; immediately renumbered 221 & 222. (130/131 were their works nos.)

Appear to have been a complete failure and offered for sale - no takers. So reconstructed by Kitson as 0-6-0s in 1850 and  as 0-6-0WTs  (in 1862).

 

221 ended its days as 2016 (Dup list) and w'dn 11/1873.

222 end its days as 1600 (Capital list)  and w'dn 7/1921.

 

  

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

Ahrons (p72, also Fig 74 on p73) gives details of two Midland Railway Cramptons of 1848. The Figure shows a number of 130 on a small plate on the loco, and a wheelbase just under 16 ft.

 

What happened to these? The number130 was used/re-used in 1852 for a class of 2-2-2s with the same size cylinders, to be used for express passenger duties.

 

The drawing in Ahrons is from The Engineer. According to S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press, 2007) p. 24-25, six Cramptons were among 24 new engines authorised by the Midland Board on 22 September 1847 but only two were in fact proceeded with, being delivered by Kitsons [then Kitson, Thompson, and Hewitson] in September and October 1848, and numbered 101 and 102. The remaining four engines from Kitsons were built as inside-framed 0-6-0s, These six engines were Kitsons' works numbers 130 - 135, which accounts for the number on the engine in the drawing. Summerson observes that the first 0-6-0 was delivered just 10 days after the second Crampton, so dissatisfaction with the Cramptons cannot have been the reason for the change of the order.

 

Summerson has a drawing by A.M. wells, reproduced from the SLS Journal but clearly a copy of the engraving from The Engineer; much clarity has been lost in the copying and reproduction.

 

@Peter Kazmierczak has replied while I am typing. Summerson (probably more reliable than Baxter) says the two Cramptons, after being offered for sale in December 1849, were rebuilt by Kitsons as double-frame 0-6-0s in 1850, and at that point were renumbered 221 and 222, and then in January 1851 230 and 231. They became 218 and 219 in June 1855 and were rebuilt as well tanks in December 1862. They became 1016 and 1028 in November 1872, with the former becoming 2016 in June 1872 and the latter 2028 in March 1874, all these being duplicate stock numbers, the second renumberings being motivated by the rising tide of 700 Class goods engines. No. 2016 was broken up in November 1873 but No. 1028 survived to be rebuilt with new cylinders and Johnson boiler in November 1875, emerging renumbered 200, but was back on the duplicate list as 203A in January 1890; reboilered June 1896. It was renumbered 1600 in November 1907, at which point the distinction between capital and duplicate stock was abolished from the numbering point of view, though not, I think, from an accountancy standpoint. It had another new boiler in 1912, which saw it out to July 1921. It was allocated to Bristol in 1892 but moved to Burton around the turn of the century - its light weight accounts for its longevity, as it could poke around the back streets and other places where a 1F dared not tread.

 

In what sense the 0-6-0WT broken up in 1921 was the same engine as the Crampton built in October 1848 is an interesting question! It is probable that at each rebuilding, there were some parts from the engine that went into the works in the engine that came out of the works...

Edited February 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[DenysW]

I take that the statement that I found in SteamIndex for the Midland Railway whilst on a quick traul for the Cramptons

 

"With the exception of the Settle & Carlisle line the infrastructure appears to have been poor and imposed severe limitations on locomotive development."

 

does not reflect an accurate summary of consensus view? 

[lezz01]

I believe that one of the problems with the Cramptons was that although they had a very low centre of gravity they also has the eccentrics on the outside of the driving wheels or so it appears on the engraving in the Somerson vol. This would have rendered the valve gear and the eccentrics vunerable to damage and I would also think that they would have been a hazard to the crew as well. Whilst I do like a Crampton myself they can't really be considered anything but a failure. There are some very good drawings of the Cramptons in Mike Sharman's book The Crampton Locomotive although a quick glance failed to find any of the two Midland examples.      

Regards Lez.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

This would have rendered the valve gear and the eccentrics vunerable to damage and I would also think that they would have been a hazard to the crew as well.

 

One of Crampton's claims was that his design kept all the machinery close under the driver's eye.

[jamie92208]

Interesti g reading about Cramptons.  A Frenchman, Jean Francis Cail acquired the rights to build the design in France.  He was born 10 miles from where I live in a town called Chef Boutonne. He founded and ran a major engineeting company in Paris where locos were built.  He allegedly improved the Crampton dexign  and sold some to the Paris Orleans company.  There is a lovely 7 1/4 " gauge live steam model of one of his Cramptons in the museum in Chef.  The local High School is named after him and there is a bust of him in the centre of the roundabout outside the old station.

 

Jamie

[DenysW]

Ahrons describes the MR Cramptons as being closer to French designs, and the double framing seems likely to have protected any vulnerable bits, but maybe not for maintenance access. Ahrons does not mention the attempts to sell the locomotives at approximately one year old, but he avoids getting sucked into old, acrimonious controversies wherever possible.

 

Wikimedia identifies the image Ahrons uses (below) as public domain.

 

[lezz01]

There is a whole chapter devoted to the French Crampton in Mike's book, also a chapter about the German ones as well. It's a very good book actually but then all of Mike's books were good.

Regards Lez.

[Din]

1 hour ago, lezz01 said:

There is a whole chapter devoted to the French Crampton in Mike's book, also a chapter about the German ones as well. It's a very good book actually but then all of Mike's books were good.

Regards Lez.

 

I own the one extolling the virtues of modelling early victorian railways. Absolutely superb.

[Tom Burnham]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Interesti g reading about Cramptons.  A Frenchman, Jean Francis Cail acquired the rights to build the design in France.  He was born 10 miles from where I live in a town called Chef Boutonne. He founded and ran a major engineeting company in Paris where locos were built.  He allegedly improved the Crampton dexign  and sold some to the Paris Orleans company.  There is a lovely 7 1/4 " gauge live steam model of one of his Cramptons in the museum in Chef.  The local High School is named after him and there is a bust of him in the centre of the roundabout outside the old station.

 

Jamie

Was his company the one that eventually merged into Fives Lille Cail (even later Fives-Cail Babcock)?

[billbedford]

...and for today's quiz. What station was adorned with this crest?

[jamie92208]

On 08/02/2023 at 00:49, Tom Burnham said:

Was his company the one that eventually merged into Fives Lille Cail (even later Fives-Cail Babcock)?

Very probably.  JF Cail died quite early, Ithink in the 1860's.  I know that the Cail company was still producing locos in 1897 as a separate company.  Fives Lille supp,ed some locos in 1914 to the same customer, which was my local metre gauge line in Charente Maritime. Presumably the amalgamations came during or after WW1 as Lille was in German hands for most of the war.

 

Jamie

[billbedford]

On 09/02/2023 at 09:48, billbedford said:

...and for today's quiz. What station was adorned with this crest?

 

Sorry for the delay...

 

It is a trick question. The station is Wembley Park on the Metropolitan Railway. 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, billbedford said:

It is a trick question. The station is Wembley Park on the Metropolitan Railway. 

 

Try googling GSWR looking for images of Scottish railway engines. To say nothing of the multiplicity of GNRs. One has to be careful to avoid ambiguity when referring to the Great Northern and the Midland in the same sentence. 

 

If all that wasn't bad enough, one has to tread carefully not to confuse the Caledonian and Cumbrian Railway Associations. 

[billbedford]

I thought the 1923 date might have been a giveaway. 

[ian@stenochs]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Try googling GSWR looking for images of Scottish railway engines. To say nothing of the multiplicity of GNRs. One has to be careful to avoid ambiguity when referring to the Great Northern and the Midland in the same sentence. 

 

If all that wasn't bad enough, one has to tread carefully not to confuse the Caledonian and Cumbrian Railway 

 

Omitting the ampersand is a sloppy modern trait which neither the G&SWR nor the GS&WR did.

Googling gswr gets you to the Gloucester Warwickshire Railway!

[Rowsley17D]

I am rebuilding a Belpaire Midland Flatiron from a previously glued together SE Finecast kit. Was the driving position changed to lefthand drive on this conversion? Thanks.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

I am rebuilding a Belpaire Midland Flatiron from a previously glued together SE Finecast kit. Was the driving position changed to lefthand drive on this conversion? Thanks.

 

No. At the dates they were reboilered, the Midland / LMS was building RH drive locomotives. Were locomotives ever converted from right hand to left hand drive? 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Compound2632

[lezz01]

Essery & Jenkinson Vol 3 doesn't mention conversion to left hand drive. That's all I have. Dave Basford might know more as he has produced an etched kit for this class which can be built as round top or belpare. 

Regards Lez. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by lezz01

[lezz01]

Dave B's handle on here is K22009.

Regards Lez.