Midland Railway Company

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Read oxide or red lead? The latter was extensively used as a preservative coating for metalwork (for good chemistry reasons) vide the Forth Bridge.

@Compound2632 is quite correct, my apologies.  When I asked the late Charles Underhill what colour bridge girders were painted in Caledonian times his reply was 'Forth Bridge'.

 

Jim

[Dave Hunt]

For what it's worth Jerry, based purely on having seen a couple of turntables as a kid I've painted the one on my layout grey, although whether that would have been the case in 1906 when my layout is set is another matter....

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

The following are the only Midland turntable photos I can recall - Derby negatives DY 1011 & DY 1012. They were taken at Leeds some time before 1902/3, but as Baxter has No 1346 rebuilt in 1899 and the engine still has its original splashers I suspect it predates the latter by say a year or two.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the girder is in shadow but I think it is possibly red oxide(?) - it certainly does not appear to have been finished like a contemporary bridge girder.

 

Crimson Lake

 

 

 

 

 

[queensquare]

Many thanks all. In lieu of receiving a definitive answer on colour I opted for red lead in the shape of Halfords red primer. The t/t is now painted and finished.

 

 

The next item on the agenda is S&D bridge number 1 over the Lower Bristol Road at Bath - snap of model under construction below. It was known locally as the ‘red bridge’, presumably because, at least in its early years, it was painted red. Is this a reasonable supposition. There were two other, much smaller, girder bridges on the run into the station. What was the standard paint scheme for  bridge girders on the Midland in the 1920s.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

[1165Valour]

On 12/07/2020 at 05:48, Crimson Rambler said:

Dear All

 

The following is a copy of the LYR curve the Midland used for its final power scheme:-

 

 

It formed part of a series of articles on Locomotive Testing I wrote for a railway magazine - until the editor thought they were too technical and stopped it! The following explains how it was used:-

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

Hi Crimson Rambler, it seems the links to the images have since gone dead. Do you think you could reupload them?

[kevinlms]

On 27/11/2022 at 19:34, queensquare said:

 so I’m now ready to paint it and was wondering if the girders would be Chocolate ( Venetian red) or Cream (Denby Pottery) picked out with the brown. I’m veering toward the latter for no better reason than a weathered cream would highlight  some of the nice detail in Jim’s etches!

 

That's the best reason for Rule 1. that I've ever seen. Why not paint it to highlight your work?

 

Sorry too late!

Edited December 10, 2022 by kevinlms
Updated

[kevinlms]

On 09/12/2022 at 04:29, Crimson Rambler said:

The following are the only Midland turntable photos I can recall - Derby negatives DY 1011 & DY 1012. They were taken at Leeds some time before 1902/3, but as Baxter has No 1346 rebuilt in 1899 and the engine still has its original splashers I suspect it predates the latter by say a year or two.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the girder is in shadow but I think it is possibly red oxide(?) - it certainly does not appear to have been finished like a contemporary bridge girder.

 

Crimson Lake

 

 

 

 

 

The handrail in photo 1 has stood up well!

[Compound2632]

On 08/12/2022 at 18:59, queensquare said:

The next item on the agenda is S&D bridge number 1 over the Lower Bristol Road at Bath - snap of model under construction below. It was known locally as the ‘red bridge’, presumably because, at least in its early years, it was painted red. Is this a reasonable supposition. There were two other, much smaller, girder bridges on the run into the station. What was the standard paint scheme for  bridge girders on the Midland in the 1920s.

 

But wasn't the L&SW responsible for civil engineering on the S&DJR?

[queensquare]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But wasn't the L&SW responsible for civil engineering on the S&DJR?

Indeed it was Stephen, including signalling and signal boxes - but look at Bath Single Line junction box - the first on the S&D?

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Indeed it was Stephen, including signalling and signal boxes - but look at Bath Single Line junction box - the first on the S&D?

 

Was that box provided at the Midland's expense because the Midland at some point re-modelled the junction layout?

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Was that box provided at the Midland's expense because the Midland at some point re-modelled the junction layout?

The honest answer is I don’t know. In Midland days they had their own ‘Bath Junction box’ in addition to the ‘single line junction’ box. The latter was an S&D box but provided by the Midland but presumably paid for by the LSWR. The new Bath Junction box in the V of the junction commonly seen in photos was built by the LMS in 1924 and replaced the other two. 
The bridge over the Lower Bristol Road was bridge No. 1 so definitely S&D. The other three bridges I need to model on the run into Bath are 142/143 and 144.

 

Jerry

[Crimson Rambler]

@GWRSwindon - I don't seem to visited RMWeb as much recently as I used to despite the many interesting things on it - particularly those posted by @Compound2632 - too many other things to be done at the moment hence also the delay in re-posting the L&YR curve until now.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

[DenysW]

On 20/12/2022 at 19:41, Crimson Rambler said:

the L&YR curve

I attach an 1897 American version of the same correlation (Rogers Locomotive Co. of Paterson N.J. p17, printed G.G. Peck) which certainly appears to show that US manufacturing practice within the US loading gauge resulted in appreciably higher effective pressure than seen in L&Y's measurement of UK practice. I'm certainly not saying the L&Y curve is wrong (how do you argue with measured data?), more that this may be how Chapelon was able to get appreciably more power out of existing designs.

[DenysW]

As an afterthought - the difference between the two sets of data means only that - if the L&Y curve is conservative - the L&Y/Midland/LMS/BR may have found that their locomotives had better than expected low-speed power, but, correspondingly, the boiler became limiting at lower speeds than they would have expected. As noted above by @Crimson Rambler, in fact, you can't neglect grate size.

 

In simplistic terms, it may be deceptive having cylinders that can produce 1500 hp at 50 mph, if you've fitted them to a boiler than can only do 1000 hp, irrespective of speed. But you will get more grunt at start-up from such cylinders.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

In simplistic terms, it may be deceptive having cylinders that can produce 1500 hp at 50 mph, if you've fitted them to a boiler than can only do 1000 hp, irrespective of speed. But you will get more grunt at start-up from such cylinders.

 

Dugald Drummond, among other 19th century locomotive engineers, favoured large cylinders and small boilers. Such an engine required greater skill on the part of both driver and fireman than some large-boilered behemoth with a vast reserve of steam. Drummond wanted his enginemen to drive "expansively" - working as at short a cut-off as possible, which was of course the most economical way of working. That no doubt appealed as much to his South Western directors, far from cheap coal, as it had done to his Scottish directors, counting every penny.

 

The starting power was there but the engine could not be "thrashed".

Edited December 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[John-Miles]

On 23/12/2022 at 10:18, Compound2632 said:

 

Dugald Drummond, among other 19th century locomotive engineers, favoured large cylinders and small boilers. Such an engine required greater skill on the part of both driver and fireman than some large-boilered behemoth with a vast reserve of steam. Drummond wanted his enginemen to drive "expansively" - working as at short a cut-off as possible, which was of course the most economical way of working. That no doubt appealed as much to his South Western directors, far from cheap coal, as it had done to his Scottish directors, counting every penny.

 

The starting power was there but the engine could not be "thrashed".

So does this mean that Gresley  got it wrong with his huge boilers?

[DenysW]

22 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

So does this mean that Gresley  got it wrong with his huge boilers?

No. Horses for courses. If you want to pull a heavy passenger train up a limiting gradient of (about) 1:100* at 70 mph+ you need a lot of power from both boiler and cylinders. If you are LMS, you want to do the same up a limiting gradient of 1:75 (both Shap and Beattock). In both cases you have to fit all cylinders into UK loading gauge of just over 9'.  On the other hand, if you want to start a really heavy goods train but then run it as economically as possible at modest speeds once moving, then bigger cylinders than the boiler, as Drummond, also the MR/LMS 4Fs and LMS Garratts.

 

In simplistic terms, ignoring rolling resistance, twice the speed uphill requires twice the horsepower. You can run out of boiler capacity quite easily at high speeds. Hence UK speed attempts (GWR and LNER) are mostly done downhill. German on the flat. France doesn't seem to have bothered.

 

* Outside Edinburgh. Aberdeen extension not checked.

Edited December 24, 2022 by DenysW
Add LMS 4Fs and Garratts.

[1165Valour]

On 20/12/2022 at 14:41, Crimson Rambler said:

@GWRSwindon - I don't seem to visited RMWeb as much recently as I used to despite the many interesting things on it - particularly those posted by @Compound2632 - too many other things to be done at the moment hence also the delay in re-posting the L&YR curve until now.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

Thanks muchly, Crimson Rambler!

[calvin Streeting]

translating some drawings into models.. dose this Midland Railway Four Wheeled Bogie look right. i am making a few tweeks to make it printable, but wanted the MR look..

 

next need to find the coach body drawings. :)

 

Calvin

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, calvin Streeting said:

translating some drawings into models.. dose this Midland Railway Four Wheeled Bogie look right. i am making a few tweeks to make it printable, but wanted the MR look..

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-2014-0088, DY 6439.] This is Clayton's 8 ft wheelbase bogie as used for 40 ft, 43 ft, and 45 ft arc-roof carriages of the 1880s and early 1890s. The date of the photo is unknown but it shows the tpe of axlebox fitted from, I think, the later 1880s, rather than the vertical-fronted type shown on the drawing.

 

For drawings, It looks as if you have already found your way to the C&W Drawing Register and know to apply to the Study Centre Coordinator for copies of scans of drawings.

 

But if modelling Midland carriages, I wouldn't be without:

R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986, 2 vols.)

D. Jenkinson & R.J. Essery, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984).

[calvin Streeting]

oooh thanks. i can see that photo also has the brake shoes :)

 

calvin

[billbedford]

 

8 hours ago, calvin Streeting said:

translating some drawings into models.. dose this Midland Railway Four Wheeled Bogie look right. i am making a few tweeks to make it printable, but wanted the MR look..

 

I think you need to look at the arrangement of the bolster again. 

[calvin Streeting]

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

I think you need to look at the arrangement of the bolster again. 

i can see the main (mid) spring was way more open on the photo v the drawing. but i jiggled it around a bit to A: better suit printing, B: look more like the photo.

 

also moved diagonal braces a bit to allow 12.1 wheels, so its time for a test print, and find a body drawing... then work out couplerling last as that would not be part of any drawings ..

 

calvin

 

so in 4:hrs ish as printer is printing a coach shed part atm

[billbedford]

You are missing the whole of the bolster plank. This is a section of a different MR bogie but of a similar vintage:

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, billbedford said:

You are missing the whole of the bolster plank. This is a section of a different MR bogie but of a similar vintage:

 

 

That's the Pullman-style bogie with compensation beams. This was the first style of bogie Clayton used, of largely timber construction, but the method of supporting the bolster by transverse leaf springs was pretty much the same.