Bachmann 009 Skarloey Railway range

[alfsboy]

Is it scanned from the loco or a model ? A standard animation technique is to scan a model and the proceed to  digital graphics.its a great little model .

[Edge]

Whilst none of us here are privy to the details of the license, I suspect that the issue that Hornby had with Bachmann before was the selling of a model developed FROM a Thomas loco (Thomas and Percy sans faces in the digital set), which I can actually understand. If you have spent a lot of money marketing and developing your engines, then you don't want another company making profits from their competing range if they have not won the license themselves.

 

However, I suspect that in due course we shall see Talyllyn and Dolgoch appear in the Bachmann 'proper range', as they are models of real engines, not fictional ones. Provided that they never officially sell Skarloey or Rheneas over here, I can't see any way that Hornby could challenge them legally.

[Coryton]

I would have thought that the following logic could apply:

 

TR have the real loco.

The character loco is in the books, based upon the real loco.

Bachmann hold a licence for the character loco in the USA but not UK.

Bachmann are make a model of the character loco, using scans of the real loco, the licence is held for the US not the UK

 

Bachmann have scanned a real locomotive. I don't see how the fact that they have used that as a TTTE character loco in the US could prevent them from selling models of the real loco in the UK.

 

Perhaps the moulds, (or the right to use them, if the moulds are owned by Bachmann) are paid for by the publisher, and therefore cannot be used for anything else?

 

Well yes if HIT (or whoever has the rights these days) funded the model then they could control what were done with them. But I'd be extremely surprised if they had. If they funded models, I doubt they'd want to have separate licencees in different countries...

[eldomtom2]

You cannot copyright a licensed toy, model, or any other sort of artwork, at least in the US, that does not differ in some creative way from the original artwork that it is licensed from. Bachmann's Skarloey would fail this test, and so the only thing stopping Bachmann from releasing it as Talyllyn in the UK would be whether they own the moulds and such, which they probably do.

 

With regards to the accuracy of the TV series' CGI model of Skarloey, photographic references were indeed taken by the then-animators of the show, Nitrogen Studios. I doubt they made a 3d scan, as I imagine that would have been very expensive. The undersized buffers on the CGI model are from the two physical G scale models used before the CGI switchover. These models in turn got the undersized buffers from the Gauge 1 model used when Skarloey first appeared in the TV series. Thus the CGI model of Skarloey used currently is a combination of the fairly inaccurate physical models previously used on the show, and the real Talyllyn, which gives it such details as handrails and accurate sandbox lids. The Bachmann model on the other hand has none of these inaccuracies present on the CGI model. It is basically a model of Talyllyn with a face slapped on. The oversized cylinders on the Bachmann Skarloey seem to be an invention of Bachmann with no relation to any of the TV series models, physical or digital.

[Andrew Young]

You might find that it's got nothing to do with copyright....

 

Reminds me of the introduction of their 0n30 American range where Bachmann made a serious commitment to developing the range once they'd decided to release more than just the Christmas gimic trainset. It was a case of either investing properly or not at all.

 

You may well find this is the case again, Bachmann will only bring out a prototype narrow gauge 009 range if it were to do so in a large way in order to get sufficient return on their investment. A case of do it properly or not at all, it might be a case of needing sufficient capital to invest in their budget being the limiting factor?

 

This is no cottage industry manufacturer after all.

 

And just to confirm (again!), Bachmann scanned the real 'Talyllyn' in order to produce the Skarloey model, not developed from any CGI pastiche from TV!

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[PaulRhB]

Talking to Andrew Burnham today he said the U.S. certainly isn't interested in producing Talyllyn and no one would say either way to him in getting a commission done via Bachmann UK. I personally think a main sticking point, looking at the surcharge slapped on the Peco wagons, is would they only sell them at full whack to the UK arm making it unviable price wise?

Andrew also mentioned it depends how tight the Hit lawyers were on the contract.

So I think there's a possibility it may ban the moulding from sale in the UK. Evidently Hit aren't happy about the imports of the rest of the range they can't stop so new contracts may be tighter and cover mouldings rather than just the identity.

[eldomtom2]

You might find that it's got nothing to do with copyright....

 

Reminds me of the introduction of their 0n30 American range where Bachmann made a serious commitment to developing the range once they'd decided to release more than just the Christmas gimic trainset. It was a case of either investing properly or not at all.

 

You may well find this is the case again, Bachmann will only bring out a prototype narrow gauge 009 range if it were to do so in a large way in order to get sufficient return on their investment. A case of do it properly or not at all, it might be a case of needing sufficient capital to invest in their budget being the limiting factor?

This is no cottage industry manufacturer after all.

They already are making steps into OO9 with the Baldwin 4-6-0 and WD wagons. Talyllyn, despite only operating on one railway, is arguably one of the most famous NG locos, and would be a logical next step, seeing as they already have the tooling. If, as Paul says, the contract doesn't forbid them from that.

And just to confirm (again!), Bachmann scanned the real 'Talyllyn' in order to produce the Skarloey model, not developed from any CGI pastiche from TV!

Indeed. I just mentioned the CGI model to explain where its inaccuracies came from and to confirm that reference photographs where indeed taken for it. If Bachmann had gone with the CGI model as a basis however, the only real differences between that and the model we got would be the loss of rivet detail and undersized buffers. The fact that they didn't, and took the extra effort to make it accurate to the real Talyllyn, suggests to me that they have something more in mind for the model besides selling it to TTTE fans, even if it's just extra grey import sales.

[Chameleon]

There certainly seems to be a market for a new 009 loco. With Peco producing wagons and coaches (LOVE the Wee GVT coaches at Glasgow). The Baldwin loco and the Heljan LnB locos coming out, 009 is taking off. I dunno about the legalities but a series of TR locos would-be awfy nice.

 

Wonder if Roco would revive the cancelled double fairlie they announced a few years ago?

Edited February 28, 2016 by Chameleon

[PaulRhB]

Seems HIT are really tightening up on their wording after the Junior range. Still it's an easy conversion thanks to the Narrow Planet kit and Daniels transfers

Edited March 3, 2016 by PaulRhB

[pointstaken]

I saw in our local branch of "The Works" the other day several copies of "Trains to the Trenches" or might have been "Tracks to the Trenches", if anyone is interested.

 

Dennis

[Synch]

It's been confirmed by someone at Bachmann UK that they can't use the tooling for a model of Talyllyn as the tools are restricted by the license agreement to just Skarloey. Seems HIT are really tightening up on their wording after the Junior range. Still it's an easy conversion thanks to the Narrow Planet kit and Daniels transfers

I find this abit ridiculous to say the least and am going to have to ask for proof.  If this were true it would apply to other prototypes, Stepney for instance, there having being numerous models of this Terrier made without a face?

 

Skarloey would not have been made just for Skarloey, it would never justify the sales by itself as he is a rather obscure character, it would have originally been made with Talyllyn in mind and Skarloey simply hitting 2 birds with one stone, and the same goes for Rheneas and Dolgoch.

[PaulRhB]

Ok sorry this had to be deleted as it going to cause trouble for him although it was just a fact.

Edited March 3, 2016 by PaulRhB

[RJS1977]

But would Bachmann have been allowed to produce a Talyllyn for the UK market first, and then a Skarloey for the US market?

[PaulRhB]

If the UK division had started that way there'd be nothing to stop them I guess but the fact is Bachmann USA approached HIT about producing Skarloey. The only group not happy are those that want it produced with no work as Talyllyn but without Skarloey and the TTTE range we wouldn't have seen the loco that was easy to convert either.

Edited March 3, 2016 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

Been asked to remove the info so sorry but it's just not likely to happen.

Edited March 3, 2016 by PaulRhB

[eldomtom2]

I have had a look through the NGRM forums and the only post I can find about your claims is your own post about the claims.

[PaulRhB]

No Roger had removed it sorry but it's going to cause trouble for what seemed a fairly Inocuous confirmation of what we'd speculated on 27th and I suppose someone thinking he'd said more than he had.

My apologies but I have no wish to cause people grief for what seems like a sensible decision by Bachmann.

Edited March 3, 2016 by PaulRhB

[daniel11]

Black Livery Talyllyn Decals are now available to purchase from the link below.

 

http://www.dtbmodels.ml/product/tal002

 

Price is now £4 plus £1.50 P&P

 

(I still have one set of red livery ones left for anyone who is interested)

[tractionman]

In the latest Railway Modeller (April 2016 issue) there is a lengthy feature on adapting 'Skarloey', step by step, a nice job made of it too.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

[andyram]

In the latest Railway Modeller (April 2016 issue) there is a lengthy feature on adapting 'Skarloey', step by step, a nice job made of it too.cheers,Keith

That sounds like an interesting feature I may have to check it out.

[andyram]

Actually saw a Bachmann "Skarloey" on a layout at Nottingham today. It was double heading with a converted one as Talyllyn in black. What a gorgeous model it is. I want one!!!

[Edge]

Had a chat about Skarloey at Ally Pally in the Members Club Lounge. Turns out the liscensing issue is twofold: Hornby resricts Thomas models being distributed by Bachmann in 4mm scale in the UK. this in itself would not stop a model of Talyllyn being produced.

 

However, the owners of Thomas only permitted the likeness of Skarloey to be produced on the understandign that the tooling itself or associated data was not used to make anything else and that the models were for the US and Continental Europe markets.

 

Simply put, if they want to do Talyllyn as RTR 009 then they have to scan it again and do a completely new tooling for it. A shame.

 

That being said, the narrow planet conversion kit is a good way of converting with minimum surgery to the model and produces a very accurate looking result when completed.

[bécasse]

 

However, the owners of Thomas only permitted the likeness of Skarloey to be produced on the understandign that the tooling itself or associated data was not used to make anything else and that the models were for the US and Continental Europe markets.

 

 

 

 

I would very surprised if the owners of the "Thomas" brand could get that enforced by the courts given that the loco Talyllyn is a real entity in its own right (and therefore a model wouldn't be a model of Skarloey in disguise but of the real thing). The courts tend to show a real dislike of artificial constraints on trade which this would clearly be. Even if the brand owners, rather than Bachmann, had paid for the scanning of Talyllyn for the Skarloey model, I doubt whether the courts would do more than make Bachmann pay, at most, the cost of the scanning.

 

In fact, if Bachmann were to produce a Talyllyn model for sale in Europe and then start selling it in the UK "in response to the demand", the courts would almost certainly back Bachmann as the single European market would be considered paramount, given that the brand owners have no "Talyllyn" rights giving them protection. Indeed, as the Football League discovered, the European court could well blow a significant hole in the brand rights they currently "protect" so aggressively in the UK.

[Edge]

The restriction applies to the tooling itself, which as a physical product rather than an intellectual right is subject to whatever contractual restrictions are agreed on. The gentleman I spoke to on the Bachmann stand was not hopeful that we would see any TR painted models adapted from the Thomas range.

 

the situation is summed up by saying that if Bachmann produce Talyllyn using THAT tooling then they would lose the right to make Skarloey. As a member of the thomas range, that it guaranteed to cut their sales of the model considerably. In a choice between the two, economics will ensure Skarloey wins all of the time.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Edge

[Mike Bellamy]

Don't forget that Bachmann USA won't want to anything that might upset the owners of the 'Thomas Brand' otherwise they could loose all the work they have put into the American HO and G Scale range They must sell a heck of a lot more Thomas stuff in the States compared to what they might sell to OO9 modellers and won't want to risk that business relationship.

 

.