NCE SB5, PB5 & DB5

[Ray H]

We're contemplating providing more power to our club's O gauge layout.

 

We currently use NCE PowerCabs with the mains supply/transformer supplied therewith.

 

A 10 amp supply is likely to be mega overkill so we're looking at a 5 amp unit. NCE appear to market a DB5, a PB5 and an SB5. They all seem to do the same job.

 

Can anyone indicate the difference please?

[giz]

The SB5 is what you are looking for, NCE call it a Smartbooster and it is specifically designed to upgrade the Powercab. It is more than a straight booster and contains a lot of the functionality of a command station.

 

The DB5 is what NCE term a dumb booster, it is intended to add additional power districts to a Powercab/SB5 setup. It will not work directly with just a Powercab.

 

The PB5 is booster that can operate with a PowerPro system and also Digitrax and Lenz systems to provide additional power districts.

[lilchris]

I use a SB5 smart booster with my N-Gauge layout. It upgrades you Powercab system and has a lot of advantages over just the Powercab. You can use powerdisticts,I am using PSX Circuit breakers, you can unplug the power cab and plug it into another UTP socket (you do not use the PCP socket with the SB5) without the layout stopping, your Power cab is now a true moveable cab. You can also enable six cabs on the system. Please note it does not have a program track mode, I have my program track/siding wired through a dpdt switch connected to the PCP panel and just plug the powersupply in and swap my powercab over to do any programing.

[Nigelcliffe]

I wonder whether a club layout would be better if it upgraded to a full Power-Pro system, at 5Amps.  Then there wouldn't need to be anguish over future upgrades and so on.   Work out the price per member per loco and it will come out at "not very much".  My local stockist lists the Power-Pro unit, without any throttles (reuse the PowerCabs), with power supply, at £265. 

 

- Nigel

[Ray H]

Many thanks.

 

The SB5 certainly looks to be the one to buy at present.

 

Is the DB5 intended to further increase the power available (in the future) without having to discard the SB5 and buy a 10 amp supply?

 

ETA

 

Nigel posted (thanks for that post as well) whilst I was drafting my response so I'll now add the following question.

 

What facilities/advantages does the Power-Pro unit give over the basic boosters?

[giz]

Is the DB5 intended to further increase the power available (in the future) without having to discard the SB5 and buy a 10 amp supply?

If you split the layout into two (or more) power districts, the SB5 delivers 5 amps to the first, DB5s give 5 amps to each subsequent district. This is safer than allowing 10 amps through the whole layout.

[Ray H]

Thanks for the latest response. I can see the logic of the approach.

 

We're likely to want between 5 and 8 power districts depending on how we break the layout down. We could possibly combine some of the smaller areas of the layout to reduce the number of power districts - the layout is currently (DC) cab control with seven dedicated positions, although only a limited number of sections at each position have the facility to be controlled by more than one controller.

 

The SB5 is looking the way to go, with further DB5s added as we "modify" the various parts of the rest of the layout.

 

How would we achieve similar with the Power-Pro system?

[giz]

With the Power-Pro you would use the PB5 for the additional power districts.

 

I wouldn't have thought you need 5 to 8 full power districts unless the layout is huge or has a large number of sound locos, even in O gauge. A 5 amp supply will operate several locos, the exact number depending on the current drain of the locos. A single booster can supply several sections of the layout, each connected through a current limiting device so that a short doesn't stop the whole layout.

 

What you need to do is estimate how many locos will operate on each part of the layout at any one time and go from there.

[Ray H]

The layout has a single line (continuous) branch, a twin track oval that incorporates several through (staging) sidings and five terminating (staging) sidings off of which there are three further sidings used to marshal freight trains and four for loco storage. There's also a double track terminus linked to the oval. That has three platforms and a couple of parallel carriage sidings plus a small goods yard and a separate loco shed.

 

At most we'll probably have eight moving locos at any one time and I doubt we'd have many others with sound active but not moving. I was contemplating having separate power districts (or sections) for each of the two ovals and through sidings, others for the branch and terminating staging sidings plus one for the terminus and a further one shared between the latter's goods yard and loco shed. Each power district/section would have its own current limiting device.

 

Each oval will probably only have one moving loco at a time and the same goes for every other power district/section save that the station goods yard and loco shed could each have a loco moving and the branch may have a couple of locos moving simultaneously.

 

Presumably an SB5/DB5 combination can be configured to supply each of the above power districts/sections via distinct current limiting devices for each?

[giz]

Basically the SB5 would supply roughly half the layout and the DB5 the other half. The DB5 gets its command signals from the SB5 which it then transmits to its part of the layout.

 

Each booster would then supply power to its relevant part of the layout which would again be split up into several sections, each fed through a current limiting device.

[lilchris]

I use the SB5 with 4 PSX circuit breakers splitting the layout into 4 seperate power districts of course my layout is N-Gauge. I am not sure if you can use the DB5 with the Powercab, the DB5 is just a booster and does not have a command station like the SB5. Nigel is probably correct you would be better with the power pro system. If you use the SB5 with a circuit breakers like the PSx or NCE's own EB1 you could also add DB5 booster's after if more power is needed. There is a excellent Yahho group for NCE users. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NCE-DCC/info

[Oakydoke]

Ray, I would follow Nigel's advice and think about basing your layout on the full PowerPro system and forget about the SB5 and DB5 route.

 

Have the PowerCabs been purchased by the club specifically for this O gauge layout, or are they members own systems brought to the communal feast?

 

If it's the former, then you have unfortunately bought an inappropriate DCC system for the job, as the PowerCab is only designed as a lead-in or low cost entry level system, either for smaller layouts or as a taster before moving on to the full NCE system.

It would have been better to have selected the PowerPro with ProCab handsets.

But all is not lost at this point.

 

If it's the latter, then it would make sense to use the PowerCabs as just handsets and base the layout control on the more appropriate PowerPro, rather than the lower cost SB5/DB5 route which again is really best suited to giving a PowerCab a bit of a "leg up" power wise and to allow incremental system expansion from the limited start point of a PowerCab.

The PH box command station and booster can be bought for £220 from a well known UK DCC specialist, but it will need a suitable power supply. Add a PB5 booster and PSX type circuit breakers as appropriate when arranging your power districts (different booster district) and sub-districts (single booster power divided by circuit breakers).

Although the SB5/DB5 route could do the same job, it's a slightly convoluted way of going about it and still will not give the full feature set of the PowerPro.

[giz]

This site has a lot of information on NCE  systems and the page linked gives a comparison of the PowerCab/SB combination with the PowerPro:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-dcc-systems

 

Note the SB3a refered to has been supeseded by the SB5.

[Phil S]

'Power Districts' or 'Power-SUB-Districts': that would appear to be the question?  Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to....

remember the pen is mightier than the sword ..., or put without mashing Shakespeare beyond death any more..

The Nmra terminiology is clear and specific, in distinguishing between the two situations...

 

There is probably a good case for Multiple POWER DISTRICTS: Each of these has its OWN POWER SUPPLY and is connected to  the track via EITHER the (Master) Central Controller, OR from an INDEPENDANTLY POWERED BOOSTER to that (Area or) District of Track.  Each of those DISTRICTS is completely isolated form the other, electrically, with twin rail breaks.

 

This is the best method of providing a large TOTAL current capability, but with each area(DISTRICT) having a LOWER, more MANAGEABLE normal current demand and also SAFETY CUTOUT LIMIT.

This keeps the SIZE of an individual POWER SUPPLY and Central Controller/Booster/Amplifier Circuit more manageable.

It is more popular, and therefore cheaper, as well as safer, to produce '5 Amp' supplies, than sell both 5A AND some 10A supplies....

 

The LARGER the NORMAL current being allowed for, the LARGER the FAULT-TRIPPING current has to be, and therefore the LOWER (sometimes MUCH LOWER) the CIRCUIT RESISTANCE needs to be for the FAULT CURRENT to be able to FLOW

and ensure the Protective Circuitry trips out the Central Controller or Booster!!  The 'COIN' Test.

IF THIS FAILS ... there is a RISK of your wiring melting with a 'continuous fault' below the threshold being undetected.

(I once had 3.5A flowing through a Fleischmann Profi Point,with a failed internal switch .... the limit was 5A, and therefore NOT  FAULTY ENOUGH!!! ... thankfully the Controller had an OBSERVABLE  CURRENT METER).

 

In this way, a fault in, for example, one of the ovals, does not prevent running continuing on the other ovals, or sidings - especially if On/OFF isolating switches are included to isolate a problem DISTRICT /Booster until the fault is rectified.

 

Here, as an Accessory Bus for Points and Signals, might be considered to be relatively unlikely to suffer from a short circuit (unlike an area using exposed conductors or tracks on which a derailment could occur), is a good a candidate for being the (primary) District powered off the Master Controller.... with all the TRACK-based districts from their own Boosters.  In this way, points and signals can continue to be controlled during a derailment/short circuit scenario.  This usually requires little current, and therefore may be suitable for a 'starter' unit with only a 1-2A output (depending on how point motors are powered), with Boosters for the TRACK-based Districts

 

HOWEVER, even WITHIN the AREA covered by a POWER DISTRICT, which might still be a very large area, there are considerable advantages in BEING ABLE TO ISOLATE into smaller SUB- DISTRICTS ......  these are all powered from their SINGLE Central Controller or Booster, but. by using protective and auto-resetting breakers such as PS-X, can be used with LOWER SAFETY CUTOUT LEVELS ... which can be easier to trip locally - providing the desired (LOCAL) protection, whilst NOT STOPPING trains running in OTHER SUB-DISTRICTS or other Power Districts.   It CAN be VERY CONVENIENT if these areas are locally isolatable by a convenient switch- and confined to geographical /logisitical areas such as Sidings, or a whole Engine Shed or Depot .... whilst the adjacent running lines are in another SUB District.

 

Only 1 wire/rail need be isolated (as with the PS-X), but at the rail-level it is a good idea to physically isolate both rails - and of course, this becomes essential if there is a reversing section.   In this way, each local length of track might each have, for example, a limit of 2A, with fast-acting, auto and intelligent protection, but cumulatively the DISTRICT has an overall 5A limit against 'heavy faults' .... the most local wiring only being at risk from 2A.

 

Whilst, obviously, a 'FAULT' condition should not be considered the 'Norm'. it must be expected to happen ... and Sod's Law, says it happens at the start of a Show...  By DIVIDING and then SUB-DIVIDING the TOTAL track/accessory requirement into SMALLER, more MANAGEABLE DISTRICTS and SUB districts, Safety is made easier, and both Fault-Tolerance and Fault-Detection is made MUCH easier .... no longer is a Whole layout 'dead' ... just an isolatable section where a wagon has derailed or run onto a mis'-set point, for example.

 

For my Loft Layout I have 4 POWER DISTRICTS: Physically matching Geography: MAIN Station, Scenic Left, Scenic Right and STORAGE level .... /Roco Amplifiers with 3.5A limits, each typically taking upto 1A with coach lighting alone,

EACH of these DISTRICTS is Further Divided and PROTECTED by Auto-resetting PSX's,  set to 2A, into Sub-Districts A,B,C... and AGAIN EVEN MORE LOCALLY into isolatable clusters of track, ---- matching the route by which I distribute power ---- so that Sidings, Platform Areas, Approach Pointwork etc CAN ALL be isolated  IF NEEDED (And I now use WAGO LEVER Connectors to make this Screwdriver-free)

FOR OUR GARDEN G-SCALE layout, the balance of PROBLEMS/RISK is different: The risk of derailment higher, but the greater problem is always getting enough current to all parts of the track:  Thick Brass Rail suplimented by parallel DCC busses in Copper Wire. 20 sets of Dead-Frog (LGB) Points are powered from the Track, with local decoders to minimise wiring. The Central Controller we use has a selectable maximum output upto 8A, (2-4-8A) and the handests include a System Current Display. Whilst we can have 5 or more of our LGB locos running at under 5A ( we only have a slight gradient ), we can cope with 'visiting US stock'  which might take 5A for a single loco even on a slight incline!! )   For our Portable, Level, G-Scale and H0 layouts, we use the Roco Controllers and Amplifier ... 3.5A being more than adequate. The H0 layout being split into 2 PSX protected Sub Districts.

[Ray H]

Thanks yet again for the further comments.

 

The inference from the above is that if we aim to have more than 4 cabs we have little option but to head down the Power-Pro route and add boosters to that if we find that we need to. Am I right?

 

I should add that we have managed to successful operate 4 sound locos on the layout with two ticking over and two running. We've even had three sound locos running simultaneously. Both have been accomplished just using a basic PowerCab and only one track power feed to each of the four consecutive sections on the layout.