cooley_boy Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Hi All, Browsing through the various threads and can see that there is some confusion here. The overall essence of the Alpha Range as a whole is to reduce the wiring requirements and soldering needs of the layout as a whole as, lets be honest, this is were most faults occur on a layout. The Alpha Box is in effect a universal booster with one of its intentions of allowing smaller DCC systems such as the Hornby Elite, Bachmann ezy Command, and other similar systems to be converted into a 5amp system without having to get a whole new system. The Alpha box is also fitted with a Circuit Breaker and On/Off button to turn track power off without having to turn the whole system off. The Alpha Box can also act as a Booster for a Accessory bus taking amperage off the main DCC system or as and additional booster to any layout and interface for the Alpha main unit for controlling DCC Accessory items on the layout. The Main Alpha unit is a Digital encoder that takes any manual switch action and converts it into a DCC command which is sent via the DCC system (or Alpha Box) down the DCC track bus to the relevant accessory decoders on the layout. This means that you can have a conventional switch panel with all the wiring contained in the panel and not having wires traversing all over the layout like a spiders web because they just connect into the terminals on the Main Alpha Unit. This in turn will connect into the cab bus of the NCE and Roco systems and the Alpha Box. This saves wiring hassle and make fault finding simpler and more time to run trains. The Alpha Switch packs follow on with the wiring saving theme where the switches have LEDs built into them so when pressed it lights up and its wired twin turns off. The switches connect via a plug harness into a central PCB where no soldering is required. On the other side of the PCB are outputs to feed out to the relevant Accessory decoders (switch-D version) or Stall motors (switch-A version) or you can feed it it directly into the Alpha Main unit. Granted this range is quite extensive and a bit bewildering and with note to the current manual this will soon be replaced with a updated version which will help stream line things. The Alpha Central is inspired by the Marklin Central of old and is in effect a pre-finished control panel which contains the components of the Alpha Main and switch units which can connect directly into the cab bus of the NCE or Roco systems and the Alpha Box. There will be another major addition to the Alpha range coming soon at the Alexandra Palace show this coming weekend along with Several other Major Pieces of News which will be of great interest to you all I am sure. Feel free to ask more questions as I am not sure if I covered everything here. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Deleted post. Error. Edited March 14, 2016 by David Todd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 14, 2016 Author Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Thanks for your post Rand. Hopefully your new version of the manual will be less confusing and muddled. Personally, I'm quite clear on what the Alpha is intended for and had the opportunity to hear Richard talk about it at Alexandra Palace last year. I even managed a brief chat with him about it, although he was naturally guarded about the details at the time. Even so, I'm slightly confused by the information on the web site and written in the manual. The information on your website is.... muddled, spread out over several different pages, including the links to the manuals, uses inconsistent, non-standard and contradictory terminology, uses terminology that doesn't match that of the labelling on the equipment diagrams.. and the introduction to the product range concept errs too much on the side of hyperbole and lacks clarity. Also like others have said, I had expected that both the Alpha and Alpha Central could simply be used on the cab/throttle bus of systems other than NCE (e.g. where an accessory bus is either not needed, or is already installed with its own booster). Regards Ron . Edited March 14, 2016 by Ron Ron Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Well put Ron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spackz Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Thanks Ron, I will look into a full NCE system as well, the Alpha system just looks and reads as though there will be less wiring and will look tidy and uniform as a control panel. Rand, Is the power supply for the alpha actually released yet? I cant find it anywhere or on your website. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted March 14, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2016 There are still more questions than answers! In the Alpha Digital Encoder manual it states that it will connect directly to the NCE equipment. NCE already do something which is cheaper, as Ron states, use the Mini Panel this will do the same thing but cost less money? OK if you need a booster NCE do those as well. Seems a very strange thing that DCC concepts have come out with this which by default connects to the NCE equipment even though they themselves already sell items that can do this anyway. In the Alpha Encoder manual it states that if you don't have the NCE equipment then you can use it with other systems as long as you also buy the Alpha Box which is also a booster that the Alpha Encoder can connect to create the accessory bus. So that will be the Alpha Encoder, Alpha box and a power supply for the Alpha box required, that doesn't even include any switches yet!!!!!! Finally it states that it will be possible to use the Alpha Encoder with other DCC systems by using a “Command bus protocol adapter" to allow the Alpha Encoder to plug directly into the existing DCC command bus, but there is little or no information on what these are or when they will be available. Really sorry but there needs to be much better instructions and clarity as at this moment it all seems a bit half baked. It also looks like a very expensive way of simplifying the wiring. I wanted to try this but not at that price and lack of clarity to see if it would actually work. Hopefully you can clarify all of this so it's easy to follow and understand. Cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Hi All, Browsing through the various threads and can see that there is some confusion here. The overall essence of the Alpha Range as a whole is to reduce the wiring requirements and soldering needs of the layout as a whole as, lets be honest, this is were most faults occur on a layout. The Alpha Box is in effect a universal booster with one of its intentions of allowing smaller DCC systems such as the Hornby Elite, Bachmann ezy Command, and other similar systems to be converted into a 5amp system without having to get a whole new system. The Alpha box is also fitted with a Circuit Breaker and On/Off button to turn track power off without having to turn the whole system off. The Alpha Box can also act as a Booster for a Accessory bus taking amperage off the main DCC system or as and additional booster to any layout and interface for the Alpha main unit for controlling DCC Accessory items on the layout. The Main Alpha unit is a Digital encoder that takes any manual switch action and converts it into a DCC command which is sent via the DCC system (or Alpha Box) down the DCC track bus to the relevant accessory decoders on the layout. This means that you can have a conventional switch panel with all the wiring contained in the panel and not having wires traversing all over the layout like a spiders web because they just connect into the terminals on the Main Alpha Unit. This in turn will connect into the cab bus of the NCE and Roco systems and the Alpha Box. This saves wiring hassle and make fault finding simpler and more time to run trains. The Alpha Switch packs follow on with the wiring saving theme where the switches have LEDs built into them so when pressed it lights up and its wired twin turns off. The switches connect via a plug harness into a central PCB where no soldering is required. On the other side of the PCB are outputs to feed out to the relevant Accessory decoders (switch-D version) or Stall motors (switch-A version) or you can feed it it directly into the Alpha Main unit. Granted this range is quite extensive and a bit bewildering and with note to the current manual this will soon be replaced with a updated version which will help stream line things. The Alpha Central is inspired by the Marklin Central of old and is in effect a pre-finished control panel which contains the components of the Alpha Main and switch units which can connect directly into the cab bus of the NCE or Roco systems and the Alpha Box. There will be another major addition to the Alpha range coming soon at the Alexandra Palace show this coming weekend along with Several other Major Pieces of News which will be of great interest to you all I am sure. Feel free to ask more questions as I am not sure if I covered everything here. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Rand i was under the impression that the alpha switch A was a stand alone system not able to connect to the Alpha Main unit unit only for use on 2 wire stall motors with its own regulated power supply also if the Alpha Central is just really a cab unit working on the NCE bus then i presume you can connect the nce mini panel into your 5a booster to give you a 30 switch fully programmable device as you would on a stand alone nce system? and it would work ok. i had sent a e-mail to richard asking about 3 way switching using the Alpha Central but have had no reply as yet.i think i have a way of doing it or do you have a small pcb that will work are you going to ally palace if so ill pop along and have a chat john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 There are still more questions than answers! In the Alpha Digital Encoder manual it states that it will connect directly to the NCE equipment. NCE already do something which is cheaper, as Ron states, use the Mini Panel this will do the same thing but cost less money? OK if you need a booster NCE do those as well. Seems a very strange thing that DCC concepts have come out with this which by default connects to the NCE equipment even though they themselves already sell items that can do this anyway. In the Alpha Encoder manual it states that if you don't have the NCE equipment then you can use it with other systems as long as you also buy the Alpha Box which is also a booster that the Alpha Encoder can connect to create the accessory bus. So that will be the Alpha Encoder, Alpha box and a power supply for the Alpha box required, that doesn't even include any switches yet!!!!!! Finally it states that it will be possible to use the Alpha Encoder with other DCC systems by using a “Command bus protocol adapter" to allow the Alpha Encoder to plug directly into the existing DCC command bus, but there is little or no information on what these are or when they will be available. Really sorry but there needs to be much better instructions and clarity as at this moment it all seems a bit half baked. It also looks like a very expensive way of simplifying the wiring. I wanted to try this but not at that price and lack of clarity to see if it would actually work. Hopefully you can clarify all of this so it's easy to follow and understand. Cheers Ian Hi Ian I have tried this and it all works with the different systems also with various other bits of NCE kit down at your local DDC shop i may have also been in when you've been in JOHN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted March 14, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Hi Ian I have tried this and it all works with the different systems also with various other bits of NCE kit down at your local DDC shop i may have also been in when you've been in JOHN Hi John, I've not actually seen any of the “Command bus protocol adapter" so I wouldn't know if any of it works or not. I wanted to test it on the Hornby controllers, in theory as there is supposed to be an adapter for Lenz or Roco system, which is Xpressnet then it should work. You can add walkabouts to the Elite or Select which have to have the address changed, so I'm assuming that the Alpha Encoder should be able to plug into either of these two units with the Adapter and the Cab address changed to suit. I think the Lenz adapter will have the wrong connections, so I think the Roco one with the RJ12 connectors on each end should work, but again it will need to be the correct “Command bus protocol adapter" for it to work. If there is no way to plug the Alpha Encoder directly into one of these units using the adapter, then there are far cheaper alternatives that I can use without needing to buy the Alpha Box and another power supply and the Alpha Encoder to reduce the wiring. Namely, buy and build the MERG accessory Encoder, power this from the auxiliary output of one of the Hornby controllers. Feed the output of the Encoder into a booster, (the Hornby one can be bought reasonably cheaply off Ebay and it comes with a 4amp power supply!) The output from the booster is the accessory bus, which can now control all the accessory decoders on the layout using switches on a panel. Simples and it works Cheers Ian Edited March 14, 2016 by traction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Ian the adaptors are in the shop now they've been in about 3 weeks had a play the other week not managed to try all systems yet but yes i agree fully with your last comments john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted March 14, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2016 Ian the adaptors are in the shop now they've been in about 3 weeks had a play the other week not managed to try all systems yet but yes i agree fully with your last comments john John, In the shop, Lincoln I presume? Might have to have a word and see what can be tried Thanks Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spackz Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 As the old saying goes: a picture paints a thousand words. If DCC Concepts produce a few good wiring diagrams , from the simplest system to a complicated system and how each interacts with the other manufacturers equipment, including part numbers etc it would clear everything up. Having diagrams on how the Alpha system is set up with DC equipment would also be a good idea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Thanks Ron, I will look into a full NCE system as well, the Alpha system just looks and reads as though there will be less wiring and will look tidy and uniform as a control panel. Rand, Is the power supply for the alpha actually released yet? I cant find it anywhere or on your website. Hi, It depends on which Alpha product. The Alpha Power if you are referring to that is being released at AP. Most of our other Alpha items can use a power supply other than our own as long as it is within the required power rating for that item. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Thanks for your post Rand. Hopefully your new version of the manual will be less confusing and muddled. Personally, I'm quite clear on what the Alpha is intended for and had the opportunity to hear Richard talk about it at Alexandra Palace last year. I even managed a brief chat with him about it, although he was naturally guarded about the details at the time. Even so, I'm slightly confused by the information on the web site and written in the manual. The information on your website is.... muddled, spread out over several different pages, including the links to the manuals, uses inconsistent, non-standard and contradictory terminology, uses terminology that doesn't match that of the labelling on the equipment diagrams.. and the introduction to the product range concept errs too much on the side of hyperbole and lacks clarity. Also like others have said, I had expected that both the Alpha and Alpha Central could simply be used on the cab/throttle bus of systems other than NCE (e.g. where an accessory bus is either not needed, or is already installed with its own booster). Regards Ron . Hi Ron, I appreciate your feed back. We are aware of the issues regarding our site as at present there is a lot of back ground work going on to relaunch it which ties in with another announcement being made this weekend. This feedback needs to get back to Richard so feel free to email him at sales@dccconcepts or talk to him about it at Ali Pali this weekend as he writes all the manuals in his own style. We are wanting to change this. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 And when will the ESU interface be available? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Rand i was under the impression that the alpha switch A was a stand alone system not able to connect to the Alpha Main unit unit only for use on 2 wire stall motors with its own regulated power supply also if the Alpha Central is just really a cab unit working on the NCE bus then i presume you can connect the nce mini panel into your 5a booster to give you a 30 switch fully programmable device as you would on a stand alone nce system? and it would work ok. i had sent a e-mail to richard asking about 3 way switching using the Alpha Central but have had no reply as yet.i think i have a way of doing it or do you have a small pcb that will work are you going to ally palace if so ill pop along and have a chat john Hi John, That is correct that the Switch A unit is in affect a stand alone unit. If that got muddled in my post I apologize. Only the switch can connect into the Alpha Encoder Unit. The Mini panel is designed to connect into the Cab bus of the NCE DCC system so that should work. NCE would be the ones to ask though. What email did you send it too? As Richard is in the UK as we speak he will not be answering emails quickly. He will be at the Ali Pal show this weekend though. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) There are still more questions than answers! In the Alpha Digital Encoder manual it states that it will connect directly to the NCE equipment. NCE already do something which is cheaper, as Ron states, use the Mini Panel this will do the same thing but cost less money? OK if you need a booster NCE do those as well. Seems a very strange thing that DCC concepts have come out with this which by default connects to the NCE equipment even though they themselves already sell items that can do this anyway. In the Alpha Encoder manual it states that if you don't have the NCE equipment then you can use it with other systems as long as you also buy the Alpha Box which is also a booster that the Alpha Encoder can connect to create the accessory bus. So that will be the Alpha Encoder, Alpha box and a power supply for the Alpha box required, that doesn't even include any switches yet!!!!!! Finally it states that it will be possible to use the Alpha Encoder with other DCC systems by using a “Command bus protocol adapter" to allow the Alpha Encoder to plug directly into the existing DCC command bus, but there is little or no information on what these are or when they will be available. Really sorry but there needs to be much better instructions and clarity as at this moment it all seems a bit half baked. It also looks like a very expensive way of simplifying the wiring. I wanted to try this but not at that price and lack of clarity to see if it would actually work. Hopefully you can clarify all of this so it's easy to follow and understand. Cheers Ian Hi Ian, Lets see... The prices in the Uk are currently and have been for some time not set by us but by our Distributors. We price everything to be competitive to similar products already on the market or otherwise it would be silly to make it at all. If you look at our site you will see the prices in $AU which are far cheaper than in the UK at present. With the risk of getting hit with import taxes a lot of people will still buy from within the UK. This is about to change. We generally use NCE as a basis as their DCC system is the most stable, reliable, and NMRA Compliant on the market. For this reason we choose to use them as a base mark. Trying to make a DCC product talk with another brand can be like getting a Glaswegian to talk with a Dutchman. This is where the Alpha Box comes into play as it will take any track power output from a given DCC system and simply amplify and pass the signal through as a Booster and doesn't need to communicate with the DCC system. Yes Currently That is the way you would have to go so it would not be viable for those with existing systems and so it is aim at those starting new or expanding their current layouts. This goes back to the whole communication issue as every cab bus has its own language. In lieu of this we are working on "Translators" if you like so that the Encoder can be used with other systems. These are in the process of being developed. I feel your frustration and will make note of these in our next product meeting. Please feel free to relay you feedback about the manuals to Richard as he writes them based on customer feedback of previous manuals. The people much have a voice =P. You can write to him on sales@dccconcepts.com or see him at the Ali Pal Show this weekend. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Edited March 15, 2016 by cooley_boy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) As the old saying goes: a picture paints a thousand words. If DCC Concepts produce a few good wiring diagrams , from the simplest system to a complicated system and how each interacts with the other manufacturers equipment, including part numbers etc it would clear everything up. Having diagrams on how the Alpha system is set up with DC equipment would also be a good idea Hi, Indeed it would be. It is on our list of things to do. We are going over all our old manuals and updating them to match our new IP motors in particular. Do you have any suggestions on what you would like to see draw up first in regards to Alpha? Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Edited March 15, 2016 by cooley_boy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Hi John, I've not actually seen any of the “Command bus protocol adapter" so I wouldn't know if any of it works or not. I wanted to test it on the Hornby controllers, in theory as there is supposed to be an adapter for Lenz or Roco system, which is Xpressnet then it should work. You can add walkabouts to the Elite or Select which have to have the address changed, so I'm assuming that the Alpha Encoder should be able to plug into either of these two units with the Adapter and the Cab address changed to suit. I think the Lenz adapter will have the wrong connections, so I think the Roco one with the RJ12 connectors on each end should work, but again it will need to be the correct “Command bus protocol adapter" for it to work. If there is no way to plug the Alpha Encoder directly into one of these units using the adapter, then there are far cheaper alternatives that I can use without needing to buy the Alpha Box and another power supply and the Alpha Encoder to reduce the wiring. Namely, buy and build the MERG accessory Encoder, power this from the auxiliary output of one of the Hornby controllers. Feed the output of the Encoder into a booster, (the Hornby one can be bought reasonably cheaply off Ebay and it comes with a 4amp power supply!) The output from the booster is the accessory bus, which can now control all the accessory decoders on the layout using switches on a panel. Simples and it works Cheers Ian Hi Ian, Please note there has been a change in the product structure and there is no longer a Roco adapter because the cable are Identical to that of the NCE so you can use the DCD-ACL cables. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 And when will the ESU interface be available? Hi, At this point there will not be an adapter like the others with just a cable as the ESU uses a CAN bus with a very complicated protocol network so we are looking at doing it another way. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 So any idea when please. Hi, At this point there will not be an adapter like the others with just a cable as the ESU uses a CAN bus with a very complicated protocol network so we are looking at doing it another way. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooley_boy Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 So any idea when please. Hi, At this I can't say. We will know better at the end of this month. I would think it would be around June depending on production time. Regards Rand Cooley DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Thanks for the update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisG Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Stepping back a bit from all this... When thinking through how I would control my new layout, begun in retirement and intended to keep me busy for evermore, it occurred to me that:- a) In the absence of a viable wireless/radio control set up for 4mm scale (especially a layout like mine which only has small tank engines), DCC was the obvious way to go since it makes driving a model train pretty much like driving the real thing. It allows a separation of the duties of a signalman from those of a driver and means you can run your railway like a railway. And that's what I wanted. b) DCC was also a possibility for turnouts and signals. Except they can already be controlled by mechanical or electrical (non digital) means, precisely in accordance with the prototype, and therefore weren't exactly looking for a new solution. c) DCC does offer a saving in time spent wiring - but it's a one-off saving per layout, and that has to be traded off against the additional cost of the digital kit. And, as with most things electronic, one risks the equipment becoming obsolete or simply wearing out, as seems to be the way with computerised stuff. Therefore, despite being momentarily tempted by what DCC Concepts had to offer, because of the cost (and the simple fact the products were being hyped before they even existed!) I came down on the side of electrical control of turnouts and signals, and the money I might have spent on the digital equipment I spent on lovely brass kits (by Modratec) of fully interlocked lever frames which drive little SPDT switches which fire the point motors. In the process I discovered a hitherto unknown benefit which is that you can still change the points when a loco causes a short circuit by driving into a wrongly-switched crossing! Chris Gardner Alton Hampshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisG Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I phoned Gaugemaster last year to ask about certain DCC C products (I fancied the module that would do 16 points switching or something similar). Very knowledgeable and helpful if you want to ask about suitability/compatibility etc.. Phil Thanks Phil. I have by-passed the whole issue by staying with an electro-mechnical system! Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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