Help with Signal Type

[twiggy1969]

thanks a lot guys we have now found some video of it and can see its clearly two small shunt arms and no lower what we cant see is it square or round post

 

Mike stated it was a round post and i was thinking that but after the video was thinking square

 

thanks again

 

mark

[Barry M]

Thanks to everyone for their inputs to this thread.

Much appreciated.

 

Barry

[The Stationmaster]

 

Nevertheless, those sentences expressed a principle, not a rule and, as I suggested in my original post, there would almost certainly have been, for good reason, exceptions. In the old days, and certainly when I started my railway career, there was a realisation that few things are black and white and staff were expected to apply principles, even stated rules, with a modicum of common sense, the over-riding principle being that the railway should be kept running and running safely. "Safety isn't blind adherence to the rule book, it is an attitude of mind" is what was drummed into me on my induction course, together with the understanding that it was always my responsibility and never just somebody else's.

 

I understand from some of The Stationmaster's other posts, that, by the time he started his railway career, that view no longer prevailed on the Western Region and the Rule Book had become a matter of black and white. I am not sure that my late father-in-law, who had been a GWR signalman since before WWII and who, by then, was working in Reading Panel Box, would have agreed with him, even though I still have his copies of old Rule Books, all religiously updated (and occasionally annotated with interpretations), he unquestionably knew instinctively how to apply the Rules, and Block Regulations, to keep the railway running.

What a load of cobblers - grow up.  Some of us ran real railways and we knew full well that the Rules were for the guidance of wise men who knew what they (we) were doing.  If you want to resort to chlldish mud slinging and innuendo that's entirely up to you.  

 

I am of course reporting my post myself

 

PS I look forward to your early, public, apology for imugning my professional reputation

[beast66606]

Mike stated it was a round post and i was thinking that but after the video was thinking square

 

thanks again

 

mark

 

It might be the old signal with some fittings removed, or even all fittings removed and new arms provided - is the video on the internet anywhere ?

[Andy Y]

Let me give a couple of short quotes from L.G.Warburton's A Pictorial Record of L.M.S. Signals, first published in 1972 (and more recently re-issued by Noodle Books) and I understand quite well regarded by other experts in the field. 

 

"Miniature arm signals were elevated semaphore signals used for movements corresponding with the normal flow of traffic." "Ground discs are generally used for movements against the normal flow of traffic, i.e. trailing crossovers or connections into sidings which are trailing, needing a reversal to propel wagons or coaches into them."

 

It is clear from the rest of the book that Warburton had access to a large amount of original official material, furthermore he acknowledges the help of no less than nine ex-LMS S&T employees, from 3 different locations, by name. It seems unlikely that none of them had sight of the draft manuscript, and those sentences aren't hidden away, one introduces a section, the other a paragraph, so if they were wrong I would have expected them to have been excised or at least modified. Certainly, once I had read them, I realised that they corresponded with my own observations.

 

Nevertheless, those sentences expressed a principle, not a rule and, as I suggested in my original post, there would almost certainly have been, for good reason, exceptions. In the old days, and certainly when I started my railway career, there was a realisation that few things are black and white and staff were expected to apply principles, even stated rules, with a modicum of common sense, the over-riding principle being that the railway should be kept running and running safely. "Safety isn't blind adherence to the rule book, it is an attitude of mind" is what was drummed into me on my induction course, together with the understanding that it was always my responsibility and never just somebody else's.

 

I understand from some of The Stationmaster's other posts, that, by the time he started his railway career, that view no longer prevailed on the Western Region and the Rule Book had become a matter of black and white. I am not sure that my late father-in-law, who had been a GWR signalman since before WWII and who, by then, was working in Reading Panel Box, would have agreed with him, even though I still have his copies of old Rule Books, all religiously updated (and occasionally annotated with interpretations), he unquestionably knew instinctively how to apply the Rules, and Block Regulations, to keep the railway running.

Once again you derail a topic with your spin which is not helpful to the OP at all. Please desist from this in future.

[twiggy1969]

link to clip post is at 1.04 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=HRZJnJVh7fY&app=desktop

 

thanks again guys

 

mark

[beast66606]

 

Looks to be a steel post  - looking at the post just above where the hut in the background has it's roof line there appears to be a slight narrowing which would confirm it was a steel post - but this is my opinion without further evidence.

[beast66606]

PS - Did you notice the box has apparently suffered some (probably fire) damage - the roof in the video is a flat roof, not the original Midland.

[bécasse]

What a load of cobblers - grow up.  Some of us ran real railways and we knew full well that the Rules were for the guidance of wise men who knew what they (we) were doing.  If you want to resort to chlldish mud slinging and innuendo that's entirely up to you.  

 

I am of course reporting my post myself

 

PS I look forward to your early, public, apology for imugning my professional reputation

 

No apology required. You took me to me to task for suggesting (in a very much earlier post) that Southern men, who in certain (and safe) circumstances interpreted "to a stand" as "almost at a stand (and influx control of train", were so wrong that, as I understood it at the time, you would have initiated disciplinary proceedings had it happened on your patch. I am sorry if I misunderstood you but I have come across other "guvners" who took that sort of view, and plenty who didn't, and I do realise (having, in effect, read your autobiography) that this was all happening before you started on the railway. Moreover, I do value the many, many thousands of wise words that you have written in posts on many subjects.

 

To return to the original subject matter.

 

1) It wasn't unusual for replacement UQ signals to be fitted to original wooden posts if they were still sound, particularly when the new arms were required because of an alteration, and this might have been what happened here, certainly, I too think the photo shows a wooden post.

 

2) It is possible that the signal box roof was renewed after a fire, it did happen, but an alternative, and possibly more likely explanation, is that a flat reinforced concrete replaced the original as an air raid precaution, much as many boxes received a protective brick wall round their locking room. The box would certainly have been considered important enough to warrant ARP work.

[beast66606]

2) It is possible that the signal box roof was renewed after a fire, it did happen, but an alternative, and possibly more likely explanation, is that a flat reinforced concrete replaced the original as an air raid precaution, much as many boxes received a protective brick wall round their locking room. The box would certainly have been considered important enough to warrant ARP work.

 

<shakes head and wonders why I bother> - it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely that Bromsgove South would be considered important enough when there were more strategic boxes in the area but that aside 10 SECONDS doing a google search shows it existed in BR days with a Midland Roof - RESEARCH - try it.

 

Google

"Bromsgrove South signal box"

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/14772833736/

 

 

     

[beast66606]

 

1) It wasn't unusual for replacement UQ signals to be fitted to original wooden posts if they were still sound, particularly when the new arms were required because of an alteration, and this might have been what happened here, certainly, I too think the photo shows a wooden post.

 

 

That confirms it to be steel then

[beast66606]

<shakes head and wonders why I bother> - it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely that Bromsgove would be considered important enough when there were more strategic boxes in the area but that aside 10 SECONDS doing a google search shows it existed in BR days with a Midland Roof - RESEARCH - try it.

 

Google

"Bromsgrove South signal box"

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/14772833736/

 

 

     

 

 

And for an extra 30 seconds - adding fire damage to the search

 

 

http://www.signalworks.co.uk/draw1.pdf

 

Index of BR WR signalling drawings

 

Page 63

 

"ME  9364 Bromsgrove South Fire Damage Repair"

 

Judging by the dates either side the FIRE occurred in late 1961

[bécasse]

That is useful information, date as well, but fitting of flat concrete roofs to boxes was a known, albeit not particularly common, air raid precaution. Furthermore, I long ago gave up trying to understand the rationale of what was considered, and what wasn't, a strategic box for such purposes, other than noting that what one might call simple block section boxes rarely qualified, presumably because they could be readily replaced.

[beast66606]

That is useful information, date as well, but fitting of flat concrete roofs to boxes was a known, albeit not particularly common, air raid precaution. Furthermore, I long ago gave up trying to understand the rationale of what was considered, and what wasn't, a strategic box for such purposes, other than noting that what one might call simple block section boxes rarely qualified, presumably because they could be readily replaced.

 

Even when presented with evidence you are unable to apologise - you effectively dismissed my proposal as rubbish and now I've shown it to be correct you STILL continue.

 

Flat roofs on Midland cabins needed a brick surround as the wooden structure could not support the weight of the concrete - but I'm happy for you to evidence differently

[TheSignalEngineer]

<shakes head and wonders why I bother> - it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely that Bromsgove South would be considered important enough when there were more strategic boxes in the area but that aside 10 SECONDS doing a google search shows it existed in BR days with a Midland Roof - RESEARCH - try it.

 

Google

"Bromsgrove South signal box"

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/14772833736/

 

 

     

 

The Flickr link  picture from June 1958 shows the box with the original roof and the main line signals being Midland wooden posts with LMS fittings. Unfortunately the signal in the sidings is not visible, but the turntable road appears to still be there to the right of the box. Note that the ground signal in the foreground has been renewed by a WR one of the type introduced in the mid-1950s

 

A photo at this link, https://flic.kr/p/qX3av1, shows the box with the flat roof and the signals have been renewed with WR style posts but retaining the LMS pattern arms. The picture is undated but the Class 37s started working the bank in July 1964 and the shed closed about two or three months later, and the loco on the Down coal train is 48336 which was at Bescot from October 1965 then moved to Saltley from March 1966 to March 1967.  

[beast66606]

The Flickr link  picture from June 1958 shows the box with the original roof and the main line signals being Midland wooden posts with LMS fittings. Unfortunately the signal in the sidings is not visible, but the turntable road appears to still be there to the right of the box. Note that the ground signal in the foreground has been renewed by a WR one of the type introduced in the mid-1950s

 

A photo at this link, https://flic.kr/p/qX3av1, shows the box with the flat roof and the signals have been renewed with WR style posts but retaining the LMS pattern arms. The picture is undated but the Class 37s started working the bank in July 1964 and the shed closed about two or three months later, and the loco on the Down coal train is 48336 which was at Bescot from October 1965 then moved to Saltley from March 1966 to March 1967.  

 

The PDF I linked to has the drawing date for the replacement WR signals at Bromsgrove (for anyone interested in the finer detail of Bromsgrove)

[The Stationmaster]

No apology required. You took me to me to task for suggesting (in a very much earlier post) that Southern men, who in certain (and safe) circumstances interpreted "to a stand" as "almost at a stand (and influx control of train", were so wrong that, as I understood it at the time, you would have initiated disciplinary proceedings had it happened on your patch. I am sorry if I misunderstood you but I have come across other "guvners" who took that sort of view, and plenty who didn't, and I do realise (having, in effect, read your autobiography) that this was all happening before you started on the railway. Moreover, I do value the many, many thousands of wise words that you have written in posts on many subjects.

 

 

I'm still waiting an apology.  I'm also amazed that you have read anything like my autobiography or seem to be unable to credit me with actually learning things from the people I worked with.  Nice of you to say what you do appreciate however that still does not remove the irrelevant (to this thread, you now say it was 'a very much earlier post') and insulting tones of your previous ultimate paragraph.  Incidentally I learned a lot of my Rules & Regs from a former GWR Signalman who after many years as a District Inspector became a Supervisor in Reading panel.  BTW I do of course carefully check anything I might say about Rules & Regulations to ensure I'm remembering things accurately and that can take a considerable amount of time - I would hope that other posters on prototype railway matters would do the same but I appreciate that some might not have the necessary sources at hand.

 

I apologise to the OP and others for going OT in this thread but then that isn't down to me and I shall of course report this post.

[Andy Y]

I'm still waiting an apology.

He didn't seem prepared to do so when requested earlier and to save further argument I removed his access to this topic last night.

[twiggy1969]

thanks everyone you have all indeed helped very much.

No need to apologise Mike I myself have had many of the same sort of disagrement with others re gwr pratice and it seems always with ex sourthern railwaymen. Two such spring to mind was 1 about left and right hand brakes so the corridor ran the same side (he didnt belive they exsisted) and another was about the way the gwr used to put horseboxes at the rear of train as tail traffic and even after showing photos told me it was 1 offs so i then quoted the regs that you pm'ed me and they still told me i was wronge but it was my layout so i could do as wish

 

thanks again all been very helpful and another order will be going to mse on tuesday morning

[AberdeenBill]

Could somebody please explain the operational requirement for a turntable at this location.  (Yes, obviously to turn locomotives, but why at the unusual location with a forward connection off a running line...).   

 

Many thanks,

Bill

[TheSignalEngineer]

The connection was actually from a Through Siding which linked the various parts of the Wagon Works on the Down side, and also the Gas works. In the Wagon Works area was the old Birmingham and Gloucester shed which was used for loco servicing and stabling. This was built in 1840. It had a turntable at one time but this was removed in the 1890s. 

 

Most loco activity was the Lickey Bankers which came onto trains at Bromsgrove South. These were stabled on the Up side opposite Bromsgrove South Signal Box. At that location was a coal stage and engine pit. The water tower was by the turntable. There was no covered accommodation at Bromsgrove South.