Dean Goods - High Level Chassis

[nickwood]

One loco I have always wanted running on Much Murkle is the iconic Dean Goods. The only RTR model of this loco was I believe made originally by Mainline and later by Hornby. Both have a horrid tender drive mechanism. I bought a secondhand one when I first started building Much Murkle and although it ran as the manufacturer intended, in my case Mainline, it was noisy and couldn't run slowly enough for my needs. In addition as many of you will know, the tender chassis has all the gearing cogs exposed and the wheels are solid plastic. Although the loco and tender above the footplate are both quite acceptable, with a little detailing they will be fine.

 

A lovely looking loco, the tender top and frames are loose hence the tilt.

 

The horrid tender drive really spoils the look of the loco, not to mention the performance.

 

On a visit to the Railex exhibition back in 2012 I was looking at the High Level Kits stand and saw their Dean Goods chassis kit which provides a new chassis for both the tender and the loco and puts the gearbox and motor in the loco where it belongs. So after Chris Gibbon persuaded me that it was all straightforward, I bought a kit, including gearbox and a Mashima motor. I also bought the wheels and axles from Alan Gibson at the same show.

At the time I had no experience of soldering anything as detailed as this. I read the instructions, read them again and again, and like many others before me, developed a crisis in confidence. I put the kit away, saying to myself, one day!!

Well, that day has now come. I have decided to make a start on the tender, using it as a confidence booster (hopefully). The tender kit is shown below.

 

 

The etches are beautifully crisp in Nickel Silver. The chassis can be built rigid, compensated or with CBS (Centre Beam Sprung) suspension. I have decided to keep things simple so I'm building the chassis of both the tender and loco rigid, so I won't be needing the hornblocks and some of the other etched parts.

The instructions just for the tender runs to 9 sides of A4 and are the most comprehensive that I've seen with exploded diagrams.

I actually made a start about a week ago and have got the basic frames together but I didn't want to post in case I made a hash of it. As it has gone well up to now, I'll post the progress so far in another post shortly.

[Horsetan]

.....I won't be needing the hornblocks and some of the other etched parts.

Do let me know if you want rid of the hornblocks, hornblock bearings and support tags. I could do with some more!

[EHertsGER]

You know when you have a day out at the races and your horse starts pulling away from the rest of the glue donors and sofa stuffers and you just can't help yourself but to give a little encouragement from the stands...

 

Well it's rather like that when you see someone setting out on that wonderful voyage of discovery into chassis building (though you won't get lost - the map Chris gave you is a pretty good one...)

 

Best of luck!

 

Best,

Marcus

[nickwood]

Do let me know if you want rid of the hornblocks, hornblock bearings and support tags. I could do with some more!

 

I'll bear that in mind. Depending on how the tender construction goes I had thought that I might use them on the loco chassis.

 

You know when you have a day out at the races and your horse starts pulling away from the rest of the glue donors and sofa stuffers and you just can't help yourself but to give a little encouragement from the stands...

 

Well it's rather like that when you see someone setting out on that wonderful voyage of discovery into chassis building (though you won't get lost - the map Chris gave you is a pretty good one...)

 

Best of luck!

 

Best,

Marcus

 

Thanks Marcus, like many things in this hobby it all comes down to having the confidence to take the plunge and get stuck in.

 

I didn't realise at the time that Comet also made a chassis kit and would have perhaps gone down that route thinking that the Comet chassis would be an easier build. However Chris's instructions seem so comprehensive and relatively easy to understand I think I inadvertently made the right choice.

 

Hopefully I'll get time later today to post some progress.

[sp1]

I look forward to watching this develop.

On a different note, are you exhibiting in the West Midlands in the near future? - I missed you at the Cradley Heath show a few years ago : any chance of a return there?

[nickwood]

I look forward to watching this develop.

On a different note, are you exhibiting in the West Midlands in the near future? - I missed you at the Cradley Heath show a few years ago : any chance of a return there?

 

I only have one more invite this year at Cheltenham in October. I have a number of bookings for 2016 but they are all in the south with the exception of Stafford in February.

[nickwood]

First things first for those who are interested in such things, I am using an Antex 25w soldering iron, 145 degree solder and Carrs Yellow Flux and drawing on only a modicum of soldering skills. It is being built to OO and in the case of the tender as a rigid chassis.

The first tentative steps involved detaching the wheel bearing carriers from the etch and bending these ready to be soldered into the frame. The lower left carrier is still to be formed but shows the quality of the etching and that when bent the ends project to help locate them in the frames. Right from the off you realise that this kit is very well designed.

 

 

The next job is to cut the frame from the etch and clean up any burrs caused by cutting out.

 

 

The bearing carriers are then soldered into the frame, making sure that they are placed in the hangers from the rear. They locate perfectly.

 

 

The next job is to enlarge the holes in the carriers with a broach to fit the brass bearings. The bearings are then soldered into the carriers and the frame sides bent to 90 degrees. The frame is fettled to ensure it is all square. I haven't got any extended axles so used the EM gauge ones supplied with the Gibson wheels to help check alignment and moved freely. The frame was then tack soldered, checked again to ensure it was still square before running solder along the bends.

 

 

The next part to fit is the water scoop resting plate. This needs bending slightly and then just slots into place between the frames with locating tabs. It is then soldered into place.

 

 

One thing you have to beware of when reading the instructions is that some only apply depending on which gauge you are modelling. In the case of an OO chassis, once the resting plate is soldered into place the projections need to be cut and filed off flush with the frame like so...

 

 

The pivot box is then folded up, located using the tabs and soldered into place

 

 

The chassis end and carrier brace are then located into slots and soldered into place.

 

 

According to the instructions work stops there until the tender body is prepared. More soon.
 

[nickwood]

Moving on to the next stage according to the instructions the tender top, is removed and set aside. The frames are separated from the motor and chassis. The frames will be modified but the motor and chassis can be put in the "must throw away someday" or Ebay box as many people call it.

I forgot to take any photos of the frames before chopping them about but you can see from the photos below where plastic has been removed. It was a tricky operation as it would have been easy to cut through the sides of the frames. It was difficult getting the knife in at some angles so it was a case of a little at a time using a sharp chisel blade.

 

 

 

Now this is done it is back to the etches for another tricky process, but more on that later.

[nickwood]

Ah well back to the etches

 

The next job is to build the brake cross-shaft with handbrake lever, steam brake lever and weights. The instuctions say to open out all the holes in the parts if necessary before removing them from the fret. Now some of these parts, particularly the weights are tiny and the holes are supposed to be 0.5mm diameter. I was hoping that a piece of 0.5mm wire would pass through without the need to open them out, but no such luck.

Taking the smallest broach I had I stuck it through the hole of the first weight and stabbed it straight into one of my fingers I was holding the etch with. Ouch!  Tentatively I turned it and after a few turns the weight bent on the etch. So if the turning force of the broach was likely to rip the parts from the etch I had to find a way to stop it happening. It is almost impossible to open out a hole in a part that is too small to hold properly.

After a bit of thought I came up with a simple solution. So simple that I suspect others must do the same but no-one had ever told me about it. I stuck masking tape to one face of the etch. This helps hold the parts in place and the broach pierces it quite easily. You can see to the right of RHS on the etch where the weight mentioned did actually break off but all the others held.

 

 

It took me all of my modelling time last night just to open out the holes of the few pieces for this next stage. I was hoping to get them soldered up this evening but it looks like tomorrow now as the wife had other things in store for me. Oh er missus!!

[nickwood]

I didn't have much on yesterday so I was able to make some progress. What I'm beginning to realise is that there is nothing inherently difficult in building an etched kit for the first time providing that you;

1) have an understanding of the basics of soldering (would you start one of these kits without??)
2) read the instructions and make sure that you understand what they are telling you to do.
3) always look at least two instructions ahead before taking the soldering iron to anything so that you understand the relationship various parts have with each other.
4) Parts are fiddly so have plenty of blutac, clothes pegs and any other aid to help you handle them handy.
5) take your time and don't rush.
6) for small parts use small amounts of solder on the iron tip, obvious really but easy to overdo it.

The next step was to solder some 0.5mm wire passing it through the Handbrake and Steambrake levers. It is then trimmed off almost flush. Wheels to give some idea of scale.

 

 

Some 1mm wire is then passed through the holes in the frame, the two levers and 4 brake actuators. The levers fit into slots on the brake carrier and with the exception of the actuators everything is soldered into place.

 

 

The water lifting shaft and mount are formed next before soldering into place in front of the water scoop plate.

 

 

 

The water scoop push rod is then fitted onto the end of the shaft outside of the frames. The shaft is then trimmed flush.

 

 

The water scoop is a white metal casting and I debated (with myself) whether to solder it or chicken out and glue it. I decided not to take the easy way, so tinned the two mounting points with 145 solder, got out my secret weapon, an Antex temp controlled iron designed for whitemetal soldering and soldered it up using 75 solder. No problems with it at all. The water scoop stays are added by bending a small 'L' to sit in the hole and threading the rest of the wire through the mounting plate and soldering into place. Where the wire is located in the side of the scoop I'll put a dab of superglue just to make sire that it doesn't spring out.

 

 

The halfshaft journal was the last thing I did yesterday, shown bottom right.

 

 

The brakegear is next and then the tender chassis is almost done.

[BenW]

Looking great NIck, I've got a Hornby version stashed in a cupboard waiting for this chassis.  Will be watching with interest, thanks for posting!

 

Ben

[nickwood]

Thanks for the interest so far and all the likes etc. Yesterday I made some progress with the brakes.

The six brake hangers are in three parts which need to be brought together. The photo below shows five of them which I have already soldered up and the last one in it's constituent parts. The three bits of wire are to hold the things together.

 

 

To solder up the last hanger the larger piece needs to have the very small tab at the bottom filed off. This is because I'm working in OO. If it was EM or P4 it would stay. Note also that there are two different sizes of holes in all of the parts. The top and bottom are 0.7mm and the middle hole is 0.5mm. A right angled bend is then made on the etched line just below the bottom hole on the large part.
 

 

The three parts are threaded onto the three bits of wire like so.
 

 

And then held firmly with some Blutac making sure that all are square to the pins and tightly together. The middle pin is then withdrawn so that the end is just proud of the hanger face (bottom of photo) and then soldered into place. The two outer pins are not soldered .
 

 

The two outer pins are then withdrawn completely and the middle pin cut off and cleaned up almost flush on both sides.

 

 

The three hangers on one side are then each soldered to a piece of 0.7mm wire about 35mm long and the push rods and the other hangers threaded on.

 

 

The assembly is then test fitted and another piece of 0.7mm wire threaded through the other end of the hangers and holes in the chassis. The pushrod ends are joined to the actuators with 0.5 mm wire. You then have to make sure that everything is lined up, square and pushed into the frames tightly before soldering the other hanger bottom end (top in the photo) to the wire cross shafts. Once this is done the push rods can be lined up and also soldered onto the cross shafts. All other joints remain unsoldered so that the brake gear can be removed. The excess length of the cross shaft can now be trimmed back and cleaned up.

 

 

Like so.

 

 

To complete the brake assembly the shafts that pass through the hangers and the chassis are trimmed so that they project beyond the hangers on both sides are a snug fit between the plastic frames of the tender body.  They are left loose so that the brake assembly can be removed at any time in the future.

 

Next job is to test fit the frames to the tender. Today maybe.

[Focalplane]

I have just discovered this project and like what you are doing with the High Level kit. It is more comprehensive than the Comet chassis kit as far as the tender details are concerned. My Dean Goods has been set aside for the time being but the relevant posts are here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/blog-1581/cat-714-dean-goods

 

It will become a priority once I have completed the track building and laying.

 

I have several soldering irons and can confirm that you chose well with the Antex!

[Mark Forrest]

Despite having no current or likely future need for one of these locos they have always appealed to me. Thanks for sharing the step by step notes and photos, really useful; watching with interest.

[nickwood]

I have just discovered this project and like what you are doing with the High Level kit. It is more comprehensive than the Comet chassis kit as far as the tender details are concerned. My Dean Goods has been set aside for the time being but the relevant posts are here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/blog-1581/cat-714-dean-goods

 

It will become a priority once I have completed the track building and laying.

 

I have several soldering irons and can confirm that you chose well with the Antex!

 

Hi Paul

 

I've just read all of the posts on your link. It's interesting to compare the two. A couple of questions if I may.

 

How did you go about removing the coal load. Was it just many light cuts along the edges with a scalpel and remove in one large piece or did you butcher middle and trim it up around the edges afterwards?

 

What are your intentions with pickups? Once I get to the loco chassis I will have to decide early on if I am going to use Gibson plungers or wipers. I'm inclined to go for wipers but was going to talk to High Level when I visit Railex later in the month.

 

I note that you have also built the chassis rigid. I'm inclined to do the same as all my Bachmann RTR locos perform well without any compensation. Did you use a jig or perhaps extended axles with a keen eye?

[Focalplane]

Hi Paul

 

I've just read all of the posts on your link. It's interesting to compare the two. A couple of questions if I may.

 

How did you go about removing the coal load. Was it just many light cuts along the edges with a scalpel and remove in one large piece or did you butcher middle and trim it up around the edges afterwards?

 

What are your intentions with pickups? Once I get to the loco chassis I will have to decide early on if I am going to use Gibson plungers or wipers. I'm inclined to go for wipers but was going to talk to High Level when I visit Railex later in the month.

 

I note that you have also built the chassis rigid. I'm inclined to do the same as all my Bachmann RTR locos perform well without any compensation. Did you use a jig or perhaps extended axles with a keen eye?

I cut the coal load out carefully, starting at the top of the coal and snipping away until I got to the sides. It looks better in real life than in the photos, by the way! And real coal will hide the multitude of sins.

 

Yes, rigid chassis for this one though I have sprung others. Ideally, well built track should not require compensation.

 

I swear by the Comet spacer jig, well worth having in your tool kit.

 

The Dean Goods was one of very few locos actually allowed on the Shipston Branch after passenger workings ended. They were replaced by the Standard 78xxx class in the end.

[nickwood]

Thanks for the quick reply Paul, that's very useful.

 

It looks like you may have missed one of the questions and I would be interested to know if you use / prefer plunger pickups or wipers?

[nickwood]

To bring the tender chassis build to a close for now.

The frames have a large hole which makes them quite weak and there is little plastic to provide fixing points for the chassis. A piece of plastic card was glued over the hole which gives some strength to the frames and two 2mm holes drilled for the mounting points.

 

 

A final test fit of the chassis and frames

 

 

 

Two scrap pieces of brass had 2mm holes drilled and an M2 nut soldered over the hole

 

 

These were then stuck with cyno and will provide the fixing points.

 

 

A more or less completed tender. I've read that Gibson wheels do not take kindly to being taken on and off their axles so I've bought a wheel press to get them on right first time. I'm waiting for it to arrive in the post but in the meantime I couldn't wait to get an idea of what the finished tender might look like. Compare these next two photos with the first one on this thread to see the difference.

 

 

 

The tender top will also need some work. The coal (or is it Camel) hump will have to go and that will need some delicate surgery. The moulded handrails will have to go as well. There are no lamp irons either. The buffers may also have to go for something more suitable. Fortunately the livery is ok so hopefully no repainting.

I had a read of the Loco chassis instructions last night and have made a start on this too, but more on that later.
 

[Focalplane]

Thanks for the quick reply Paul, that's very useful.

 

It looks like you may have missed one of the questions and I would be interested to know if you use / prefer plunger pickups or wipers?

Yes, sorry about that.  I have generally used wipers but on my latest project tried the Gibson plungers and have one comment - make sure you drill the holes in the frame in the RIGHT places!!!  The wipers are far more forgiving in this respect.  I have used Comet's simple wiper kit in the past and have also used the "American system" in the days of DC.  Here you have the loco live on one side, the tender on the other and one wire passing from tender to motor terminal.

 

Hope this helps!

[fender]

great thread. thanks very much for taking the time to publish the detailed photos and description. will come in handy when I get round to making my first chassis!

[nickwood]

Yes, sorry about that.  I have generally used wipers but on my latest project tried the Gibson plungers and have one comment - make sure you drill the holes in the frame in the RIGHT places!!!  The wipers are far more forgiving in this respect.  I have used Comet's simple wiper kit in the past and have also used the "American system" in the days of DC.  Here you have the loco live on one side, the tender on the other and one wire passing from tender to motor terminal.

 

Hope this helps!

 

It does help, thanks again.

 

I've just been doing some internet research and it appears that whilst there are some supporters of Gibson's plunger pickups most favour wipers although there are quite a few 'designs'. This probably works in the favour of wipers as there seems to be many ways of making them fit the chassis whereas plungers seem to be a bit less forgiving. There are also a few recorded problems with finding space to fit plunger pickups with a OO chassis. I wasn't aware that Comet do a wiper pickup kit. I'll have a look at that.

[EHertsGER]

On a semi-general note, but dying to know how you overcome this; how are you addressing the potential of shorting to the chassis from the etched brake blocks? I tried and tried to get brakes close to the wheel treads but gave up and cut brake shoes from phenolic resin (a bit like tufnol plasticard, if you like)...

 

Otherwise, looking good - and a plaudit for the quality of work too!

 

Best,

Marcus

[nickwood]

On a semi-general note, but dying to know how you overcome this; how are you addressing the potential of shorting to the chassis from the etched brake blocks? I tried and tried to get brakes close to the wheel treads but gave up and cut brake shoes from phenolic resin (a bit like tufnol plasticard, if you like)...

 

Otherwise, looking good - and a plaudit for the quality of work too!

 

Best,

Marcus

 

Hi Marcus

 

I have no idea if it will be a problem or not until I fit the wheels. I'm not expecting any problems as everything in this kit has been so well designed and engineered so far, but we'll see in due course. I do not need lots of sideplay in the axles as the loco will only need to negotiate 3ft min radius and I could live with the brake shoes being far enough away from the wheel treads so as not to cause a problem.

[nickwood]

I made a start on the loco chassis today. Here's the etch of parts after I had removed the frames and firebox sides. They have been soldered together as you can see.

 

 

The springs have to be formed next which you can see in the top righthand corner of the etch. These have to be folded to double the thickness as shown below and unusually for etched parts the half etched line is on the outside of the bend. You have to make sure that they are completely flat so they are placed between two pieces of wood and tapped with a small hammer.

 

 

They are then soldered behind the springs which are already etched into the side frames to increase the thickness further. I found the easiest way to solder these was to tin both faces and with plenty of flux place the springs into position and bring a hot iron to bear, sweating the two together.
 

 

The holes for the axle bushes were then reamed out and the bushes soldered into place.
 

 

Then it was decision time. Do I want to use plunger pickups or wipers? Reason, if using wipers the circular fixing point for the plungers to the left of the lefthand axle bush in the photo above has to be removed at this point. Up until this point I hadn't considered plungers but thought that I should. My only experience with plunger pickups was the dreadful system used by Airfix on the 14xx years ago. So I did just over an hours research on the web over lunch and came to the conclusion that in OO they are likely to be problematic both in terms of performance but more impostantly in finding the space to install them. So the fixing point has been removed.   

The frame spacers were folded up and located in position by tabs. These were then tack soldered to one side of the frames making sure that they were all square. The other frame was offered up and again the spacers were tacked into place.

 

 

I have purchased three 13" 1/8" silver steel rods to help with alignment. The ends of these have been de-burred and slightly tapered to help with threading them through the bushes. Having tried to pass the Gibson axles through the bushes it was clear that they needed a light reaming with a broach to give free passage.

With the rods were passed through the bushes, because of thier length you can immediately see if there is any misalignment.

 

 

The camera angle might make it appear that the right hand side is slightly narrower than the left but there is very little discernible misalignment evident by eye. I will not rely on this method totally though. I will make up the coupling rods next which can also be helpful in making sure the axles are square. These together with some accurate measurements using vernier calipers should ensure that everything is square before finally soldering the spacers to the frame.

That's all for now.

[Focalplane]

I see that High Level uses tabs in the their spacers between frames as do other chassis kits (S E Finecast and, I think DJH).  Comet does not and this does mean that alignment is more difficult and, very important, when looking down on the chassis it may take on the appearance of a banana, curving to right or left!  Comet's spacer jig helps here but even so I wish they used tabs!