Various questions on likely operations, signals placement, AWS ramp placement, etc

[Dave777]

I really need some help with general trackwork-y things and likely operations for my Challenge layout please, folks. Sorry, there’s quite a lot here.

 

Here’s the trackplan, with the dotted line representing the bit I’m actually modelling.

 

 

This is a North London, ex-LNER line. In the steam era this was a through station with a single line that went either side of an island platform, and then a goods loop with a two-siding goods yard leading off it. The era is now the mid-1970s, and the track now ends just beyond the layout on the right hand side (the track having been taken up a few years back, so no trains enter from that direction). The platform is now used for parcel workings only (no passenger operations), and the former goods yard sidings are now used for engineering trains and the odd bit of freight that sits here overnight (or a few days perhaps).

 

 

Operations:

Generally I’ve assumed that parcel workings would arrive at platform 1, be unloaded, then get taken forward into section A before being shunted back into platform 2. Here the loco would run round and couple back up again before moving the train off. I figured that this would free up platform 1 for the next train to arrive and allow any loading to occur. But… would the train just as likely wholly arrive and depart at platform 1? And would they just as likely arrive and depart from platform 2?

 

With regards to trains heading to the sidings, would they go through platform 1, get moved forward into section A, then back into the goods loop, the loco runs round and then the wagons are shunted into the sidings? Or again might they just arrive straight into the goods loop to be runround?

 

 

With each layout I try to up the ante with my modelling and make it better, and on this one I’m venturing into areas I don’t really know anything about. Areas such as...

 

 

Signals:

How might this all be signalled? (bearing in mind I don’t need to worry about anything outside the dotted lines)

 

Relay cabinets:

Are there any general rules/concepts around the placement of these?

 

AWS ramps:

Where might these be placed (if any)?

 

Buffer stops:

Would the two at the end of the sidings have red lights on them? I believe not, but just wanted to check.

 

Engineering coach:

I’m going to have a crappy old engineering mess coach sitting semi-permanently at the end of one of the sidings. Would this have any form of protection in front of it (like a sign or lamp or something)?

 

Speed signs:

Any suggested speeds and placements for these (if any are needed)?

 

Catch point:

Would this need a sign? I saw a sign at http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect11page1/sect11page1.html (very last one at bottom of page), but I can’t seem to find a prototype photo so I’m a bit confused if these are common or not.

 

Second catch point:

The dotted line where the two loops join the running line – would that need a catch point too? And I assume my first catch point guarding the sidings is actually correct?

 

End of line sign:

Is there anything that would be placed in section A to warn drivers that the line ends just beyond the bridge? I couldn’t seem to find anything on the railsigns site.

 

Point control:

Point motors, point rodding, hand levers – which are most likely to be employed here? I can’t seem to find out when point motors were introduced or where/when they are employed. Also, if the sidings are more likely to have hand levers, are there any rules on which side of the point they are usually placed?

 

Is there any other obvious things I need to consider from a trackwork furniture, lineside detailing, or operational realism point of view?

 

Really sorry there's so much - I'd just like to get this one right! Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

[The Stationmaster]

I really need some help with general trackwork-y things and likely operations for my Challenge layout please, folks. Sorry, there’s quite a lot here.

 

Here’s the trackplan, with the dotted line representing the bit I’m actually modelling.

 

 

This is a North London, ex-LNER line. In the steam era this was a through station with a single line that went either side of an island platform, and then a goods loop with a two-siding goods yard leading off it. The era is now the mid-1970s, and the track now ends just beyond the layout on the right hand side (the track having been taken up a few years back, so no trains enter from that direction). The platform is now used for parcel workings only (no passenger operations), and the former goods yard sidings are now used for engineering trains and the odd bit of freight that sits here overnight (or a few days perhaps).

 

 

Operations:

Generally I’ve assumed that parcel workings would arrive at platform 1, be unloaded, then get taken forward into section A before being shunted back into platform 2. Here the loco would run round and couple back up again before moving the train off. I figured that this would free up platform 1 for the next train to arrive and allow any loading to occur. But… would the train just as likely wholly arrive and depart at platform 1? And would they just as likely arrive and depart from platform 2?

 

With regards to trains heading to the sidings, would they go through platform 1, get moved forward into section A, then back into the goods loop, the loco runs round and then the wagons are shunted into the sidings? Or again might they just arrive straight into the goods loop to be runround?

 

 

With each layout I try to up the ante with my modelling and make it better, and on this one I’m venturing into areas I don’t really know anything about. Areas such as...

 

 

Signals:

How might this all be signalled? (bearing in mind I don’t need to worry about anything outside the dotted lines)

 

Relay cabinets:

Are there any general rules/concepts around the placement of these?

 

AWS ramps:

Where might these be placed (if any)?

 

Buffer stops:

Would the two at the end of the sidings have red lights on them? I believe not, but just wanted to check.

 

Engineering coach:

I’m going to have a crappy old engineering mess coach sitting semi-permanently at the end of one of the sidings. Would this have any form of protection in front of it (like a sign or lamp or something)?

 

Speed signs:

Any suggested speeds and placements for these (if any are needed)?

 

Catch point:

Would this need a sign? I saw a sign at http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect11page1/sect11page1.html (very last one at bottom of page), but I can’t seem to find a prototype photo so I’m a bit confused if these are common or not.

 

Second catch point:

The dotted line where the two loops join the running line – would that need a catch point too? And I assume my first catch point guarding the sidings is actually correct?

 

End of line sign:

Is there anything that would be placed in section A to warn drivers that the line ends just beyond the bridge? I couldn’t seem to find anything on the railsigns site.

 

Point control:

Point motors, point rodding, hand levers – which are most likely to be employed here? I can’t seem to find out when point motors were introduced or where/when they are employed. Also, if the sidings are more likely to have hand levers, are there any rules on which side of the point they are usually placed?

 

Is there any other obvious things I need to consider from a trackwork furniture, lineside detailing, or operational realism point of view?

 

Really sorry there's so much - I'd just like to get this one right! Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

 

All much, much simpler than that, you lucky fellah.

 

But let's get a bit of terminology sorted first - the things you call 'catch points' are actually trp points and wouldn't have any signs because they would have (had) signals at the toe ends. The one you added in blue isn't needed as the sidings would have acted as the trap for what was the goods loop.

 

Now it gets much simpler - line use changed, no passenger trains, signal box removed to save money and all points convertted to handpoints. At most you could/might have a 'STOP' board to protect the points for a train arriving on either platform.

 

The end of the line where it has been cutback at the right hand side would have a stop block (buffer stop) with a red light (probably vandalised).

 

The working would be much simpler than you suggested - train arrives, loco detaches and run rounds to the other end, train departs when unloading/loading work is complete. This could be done at either platform or a second train could arrive before the first one departs - but after its loco has run-round of course. That might possibly - but not necessarily - mean signals at the end you aren't modelling but don't worry about that, you can't see it on your modelled portion.

 

If a train arrives to serve the sidings I would think it could arrive in either the old goods loop or one of the platform lines in order to run-round and then shunt - lazy railwaymen would usually take the quickest option and arrive in the former goods loop.

 

Hand point levers to be placed on the safest side for men working on teh ground controlling the shunting, that tends to mean the 'straight road' side but not always.

 

No point machines (they have been around - in various forms - in Britain since the late 1890s); no relay cabinets except possibly a couple of incompletely recovered ones with the front doors missing and nothing inside; no AWS ramps; no speed signs; and a couple of sleeprs chained across the line to protect the coach but if there had ever been a lamp there (which I doubt) it would have been pinched long ago and be in at least its second 'antiques' shop by now.

[scotcent]

I wouldn't disagree with anything that Stationmaster says. However (and I appreciate you didn't ask this) I would wonder how the parcels get from the platform to (presumably) the road transport. Moving loaded trolleys across an in - use line might not be popular, either with the staff or with the inspectorate.

 

Allan

[Dave777]

There's a road overbridge that goes right across the middle of the platform (where the dotted line is on the left hand side) - I'm assuming the old station building and a lift are on the other side of the bridge (ie, the unmodelled bit). The trackplan is a bit 'diagramatic', the platform is meant to extend much further off to the left! Good query though.

 

 

Many thanks for the answers Mike - bit of a shame I've bought all these etched relay cabinets, speed signs and AWS ramps then! Never mind, saved for a future project, and at least I can use the hand point levers. So this Stop sign then - would that be placed at the end of the platform?

[Andrew1974]

Whilst I think it could be as simple as 'The Stationmaster' explains it does not have to be if you want it to be complicated!!! Depends what you want to achieve. If you modelled it so that the changes (in termes of lack of passenger traffic etc) are relatively recent than you could still have it fully singalled, which might make for some more interesting operating moves if that is what oyu wanted.

 

One point (pun intended) regarding this statement though...

But let's get a bit of terminology sorted first - the things you call 'catch points' are actually trp points and wouldn't have any signs because they would have (had) signals at the toe ends. The one you added in blue isn't needed as the sidings would have acted as the trap for what was the goods loop.

 

...there have been numerous threads on here about catch and trap points and the general concensus seems to be (from my understanding anyway) that the actual meaning of these two terms depends quite heavily on geography / railway company and both can be used to describe either scenario!!

 

Good luck with your layout

 

Andrew

[Edwin_m]

One of the previous threads on catch and trap points established that Stationmaster's terminology was official from at least the 50s so would be correct for the OP's era. The railway being what it is, some people were using the wrong terms well after that though!

 

I agree the layout could be signalled. If so then it's possible the signalling would only allow arrivals into platform 1 and departures from platform 2, hence giving an excuse to shunt from one to the other. In this situation there might be signals in the modelled bit, or that end of the station might already have been "de-signalled".

 

If there was no signalling at all at the station then I think it would be unlikely to have more than one train at a time in the area of the sketch. There would still need to be some kind of control on the single line leading into the area and this would most likely be a one-train staff normally kept at the signalbox controlling the other end. Having several trains would mean a token machine in a hut somewhere - was this credible in the 70s?

[Oldddudders]

I think there is also, if the OP really has purchased the "signalling twiddly bits" like AWS ramps etc, scope for putting these in place - although making them look obviously no longer used. Disused lineside cabinets are certainly two-a-penny in such areas, and offer much scope for imaginative graffiti! Cabinet doors open with bits of abandoned racking inside, perhaps?

[beast66606]

I'd agree with StationMaster except I think it would be unlikely such a line was anything but semaphore worked and so I would go for dereliction, smashed up signal box, some signals standing but no arms, some lying on their side, maybe with the arm bent, basically felled as a complete signal. I doubt there would be any location cupboards, AWS ramps or indeed anything "modern".

[Dave777]

Hmmm, okay, some conflicting info then, which probably suggests there's no definitive right and wrong - anything reasonably feasible might be get-away-with-able.

 

I shall have a bit of a ponder - many thanks everyone.

 

 

[Guest stuartp]

It's not necessarily conflicting info, just a reflection that signalling (or lack of) depended on several variables.

 

A freight only location in this era could have anything from (exceptionally I would suggest) full signalling to no signalling at all, it depends. On what it depends could be a whole list of things* from available budgets to the personal preference of the Regional Operations Manager or Signalling Engineer.

 

It might retain a signal box, Goole Docks still had one in 1987 controlling nothing but a lot of shunting signals and a couple of full sized boards protecting the exit to the main line**. In that case basic signalling might have been retained as Edwin suggests. It's hopefully not stating the obvious too much to point out that BR rationalised (as opposed to resignalled) things by taking stuff away rather than adding it, so no new kit but Beast's signal gantries with empty dolls, posts stripped of parts, disused points still in situ but with the switches plain-lined or even just clipped and scotched.

 

The box might have been retained as a covered ground frame - no signals at all (but still possibly lots of empty dolls, posts etc).

 

The box might have been demolished altogether in which case a stop board and a few hand levers are all that's required, as per Stationmaster's suggestion.

 

[*One of my tasks used to be to traipse out to Wennington Junction once a week to check that the locals hadn't burnt it down. The box hadn't been required for years but all the switchgear and timers for the station lights were under the box - the bill for moving them was greater than the cost of retaining the box 'open as required' so it stayed. For all I know it's still there. It opened once in the two years I was responsible for it, and I had to go begging to my oppo at Intercity to borrow a signalman for the occasion who was actually passed out to operate the place.

 

**This might be an exaggeration. My memories of my one visit to Goole Docks (part of the ER's Trainee Signalmans' Compulsory Tour of Godforsaken Parts of the East Riding) are slightly coloured by the fact that by the time we got there everybody except the instructor just wanted to get back to civilisation before hypothermia set in. ]

[beast66606]

[*One of my tasks used to be to traipse out to Wennington Junction once a week to check that the locals hadn't burnt it down. The box hadn't been required for years but all the switchgear and timers for the station lights were under the box - the bill for moving them was greater than the cost of retaining the box 'open as required' so it stayed. For all I know it's still there. It opened once in the two years I was responsible for it, and I had to go begging to my oppo at Intercity to borrow a signalman for the occasion who was actually passed out to operate the place.

 

Wennington has long gone - to preservation iirc.

[Dave777]

Couple more Qs as I pondered last night:

 

Would the catch point have a hand lever as per the points?

 

And would there be cable troughs alongside the lines here, left over from the signals?

 

 

[beast66606]

Couple more Qs as I pondered last night:

 

Would the catch point have a hand lever as per the points?

 

And would there be cable troughs alongside the lines here, left over from the signals?

 

 

1 - if the signalling has been disconnected then the catch points would likely be fishplated closed, saves those "Oops Scotties!" moments.

 

2 - possibly, depends if there were any troughs to start with !, some could even still be in use for telecomms.

[Dave777]

Sorry to top a very old thread, but at least it was one of my own

 

I'd like to include a remnant from the steam era and was wondering about a signal without the actual arm on it. The diagram above shows the whole station layout, and the photo below shows the bit I've modelled (so basically the right hand side).

 

 

Would there have been a signal on the line at the back where I've put a yellow dot? Thanks in advance.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Yes. But a hint - in modern schemes redundant stuff is often removed very quickly indeed so you rarely see it more than a week or two after the new kit comes into use. In the past removing old signals often took much longer. Presumably in this case there will just be the single line to the platform left in use?

[Dave777]

Yes, this is the 1970s, and the former steam station has been downgraded to just parcels usage and a bit of engineers storage/small freight storage in the sidings. The line leading off to the right (that's the line you can see disappearing under the twin arch bridge at top right in the photo of the layout) ends just beyond the bridge, it's been lifted (or at least it's no longer in use). Originally this was a through station, but everything terminates here now (I should also point out that the other arch wasn't originally for another line, it's always been a road).

 

So what I was thinking of was a signal that would have been used when the station was a through station and trains entered from the right (so they entered under the bridge at top right of the layout photo and proceded towards the platform).

 

Hope that's clear! (the diagram in the very first post shows the entire station plan - single line through station, island platform, goods loop, two sidings).

 

If there isn't anything likely, that's fine, just that I've got a bag of whitemetal signal posts and bits and if I could use something to further enhance the 'steam age infrastructure now no longer needed in the mid-1970s' that would be good.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

No problem then - just leave a signal post there, suitably dirtied of course.

[Dave777]

Oh, that caught me off guard, I was expecting something more complicated than that!

 

How close to the platform should I plonk it? About where my yellow dot is or further back down the line?

[The Stationmaster]

The yellow dot is, hmm spot on

[Dave777]

Well that was down to pure luck.

 

Okay, many thanks!