Vans/opens ratio

[JZ]

Looking through my books of this period, it seems that the ratio of vans to open goods wagons, not including minerals, is about 10:1. Is this about correct ?

I am asking because I am going to buy some of Bachmann's steel sided opens and I don't want to end up with too many.

[Pennine MC]

I'd say 10:1 is well out, Julian. Even the 1966 census figures in the OPC BR Wagons book have vans only slightly outnumbering opens, at maybe 73,000 to 70,000 (that's very much a ball park figure, the picture becomes very clouded if you try and account for semi-specialised variants and the difficulty in identifying same in photos). There was certainly a gradual swing towards using vans for merchandise traffics over the years as the labour costs of sheeting became more of a concern, but in the '50s, I would be fairly confident that the figure would be more slanted towards the opens.

 

As with all discussions of 'proportional representation' though, the precise traffics in a particular area could sway the averages, especially when the use of high goods wagons in mineral and other non-merchandise traffics is considered

[newport_rod]

Julian that ratio seems high to me. I recall that there was an article on this subject in Model Railways around 1978-79 (maybe Oct 78) but unfortunaely I don't have it to hand.

Cheers

Rod

[craigwelsh]

I'm sure Geoff Kent gave a figure of mineral 4, open 3, van 3 in the 4mm Wagon or something similar which sounded about right. Anyone with the book available to check, think its was in the preamble of the first one?

 

You'd probably have more issues buying too many of one companies (LNER) as fitted underframes for the LMS for example aren't on the market yet.

[Pennine MC]

I'm sure Geoff Kent gave a figure of mineral 4, open 3, van 3 in the 4mm Wagon or something similar which sounded about right. Anyone with the book available to check, think its was in the preamble of the first one?

 

 

 

Preamble duly ambled through, said phrase not noted. Geoff does say that only 10% of the average freight was anything other than a mineral, van or open, but that's another story of course

 

 

[craigwelsh]

Preamble duly ambled through, said phrase not noted. Geoff does say that only 10% of the average freight was anything other than a mineral, van or open, but that's another story of course

Oh oops, maybe that merged with the previous thread on this subject in my head somewhere along the way.

 

I'll go back for waiting for some software to compile now...

[PaulS]

GANSG (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock5.htm) gives some figures that might help, among tons of other useful info - don't think I had previously seen this page! He suggests: "Based on a study of photographs from the early 1960's you probably need one mineral wagon and one van for each open wagon, bolster wagon or specialised vehicle on the layout."

 

From my own faint recollections of steam-hauled freight heading south from York around 1960, in mixed goods trains, vans were in an overall majority, but only just. Mineral wagons were not usually seen in these trains, but sheeted opens were still in use. I rarely remember seeing any of the more specialised freight rolling stock.

[hmrspaul]

Dear all

 

I hope following on the fleet is of interest. Taken from NRM records. Note that I don't think it includes non revenue (thus departmental) wagons. And this IS a problem because early BR appears from photographs to use revenue wagons - especially open merchandise - for the engineers without reallocating them, but at some stage - and I have no idea when - the engineers were made to take responsibility for these and then there are lots of ex revenue wagons with roughly applied 'D'. My fotopic collections are full of such transfers.

 

To answer the actual question, as can be seen the ratio of open to covered changed considerably in this 10 year period.

 

Year 1956 1961 1966

 

Open merchandise 300579 228960 92901

Covered merchandise 146611 140043 81198

Mineral 401323 433497 332854

Specials 2363 2659 1747

Cattle 11519 4989 685

Rail & timber 49867 55279 32149

Goods Brake 14857 14741 9888

Total 927119 880168 551422

 

Sorry this is fine when I am editing it, but I cannot see how to loose justification and kerning, and trying to load the original .docx file is not permissible.

 

Paul Bartlett

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Within those year totals of merchandise wagons, both open and covered , given above by Paul Bartlett, there is the further interesting feature that the mix of unfitted and fitted also shifts significantly, my perception would be from majority unfitted at the first date fo majority fitted at the last date.

 

But whatever the actual ratio of wagons BR putatively had on the network, at any given location an observation of the passing traffic might tell a very different story. A line with a large express goods traffic mainly in vans and containers fairly intensively used shuttling to and fro in frequent regular services might well give the impression that the opens were far outnumbered, and also that most of the vans were fitted by the 1950s.

[Tim Hale]

Jules,

 

As the last post mentioned, the proposed location should dictate the traffic. My layout has a preponderance towards covered traffic due to the limited amount of open mineral traffic on the SW mainline - most van/container traffic on the line was agricultural in origin with coal being moved the region by sea.

 

Do the aforementioned ratios apply regionally or as a national statistic?

 

DesA

[Pennine MC]

As the last post mentioned, the proposed location should dictate the traffic.

 

As with all discussions of 'proportional representation' though, the precise traffics in a particular area could sway the averages, ...

Invisible ink...

[hmrspaul]

Within those year totals of merchandise wagons, both open and covered , given above by Paul Bartlett, there is the further interesting feature that the mix of unfitted and fitted also shifts significantly, my perception would be from majority unfitted at the first date fo majority fitted at the last date.

 

 

Yes correct, it was intended that all ordinary open and closed merchandise wagons should be vacuum braked. Of course many were scrapped instead. The following gives some guidance on the way these numbers changed.

 

Vans

end 1952 Power brake 84859 unfit 56821

end 1956 PB 94824 UF 51787

end 1961 Fitted 129815 Thru pipe 887 non fit 9341

end 1961 Fitted 113091 Thru pipe 794 non fit 2147

 

Opens

end 1956 PB 79531 Unfit 221048

end 1961 Fitted 152480 Thru pipe 38 non fit 76442 (or 77239 if include ex PO)

end 1963 (I don't have later) Fitted 135705 Thru pipe 31 non fit 6405

 

But these are very simplistic statistics. For example I think the opens include the Conflats - which were built in huge numbers towards the end of the 1950s.

And the unfitted vans in 1963 included 668 of 20 tons (and 100 thru pipe) and 561 of 24 tons (and 655 thru pipe) - which I suspect are mainly Covhops.

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

Jules,

 

As the last post mentioned, the proposed location should dictate the traffic. My layout has a preponderance towards covered traffic due to the limited amount of open mineral traffic on the SW mainline - most van/container traffic on the line was agricultural in origin with coal being moved the region by sea.

 

Do the aforementioned ratios apply regionally or as a national statistic?

 

DesA

As mentioned every line would differ because of the differences in traffic. When Don Rowland wrote about "Getting the balance" back in the MRN in the later 1960s there was a lot of criticism that it wasn't particularly helpful for modellers. Look how few brake vans there are! And as to Specially constructed wagons, well one Lowmac is perhaps justifiable. But then you look at photographs and they show up quite often - used for military traffic (which meant to rural locations quite frequently) and agricultural equipment delivery.

 

Another problem is that some wagons were used much more than others - doing higher mileages. Specials and steel carrying wagons were controlled far more closely than other wagons with figures reported to HQ daily. I think vans were used more than open merchandise wagons - as I said earlier the elderly opens were popular with the engineers and would have been laid up most of the week as engineers worked very much at weekends in those days.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Mark Saunders]

Not forgetting the containerised traffic in BD or similar traditional containers.

 

I found some pictures of the Richmond branch freight in 1952 on display at the Station last year, it was only short five or six wagons plus B'van, but the majority of the train was containers on flats.

 

Mark Saunders

[The Stationmaster]

From a couple of sources it seems the 1955 Modernisation Plan proposed to increase the move from open merchandise wagons to vans and the figures from Paul Bartlett could be seen to support that proposition. By the second half of the 1960s - when freight was in a steepening decline in any case - use of open merchandise wagons was unusual in many areas, basically they were used for traffic which wouldn't/couldn't go into a van.

 

As for what could be seen where I go along absolutely with all that has been said above - it depends on the place and the traffic. Our local branch yard closed in 1965 if memory serves me right and I have a photo taken a couple of years before that - no more than 3-4 vans, probably a dozen at most 16 ton Mins (for coal traffic), no opens, and 6 ferry vans of foreign origin (wooden toys from Czechoslovakia).

 

Another goods yard in 1967, on an 'exceptional' day - the usual c.12-15 vans, I standard open (ordered in empty for loading, traffic to London docks), 1 low (ordered in empty for loading with a Ministry of Health saloon car), a couple of conflats, and c.5-6 Tubes at any one time during the day with water board contract pipes from Stanton & Staveley to unload for cartage (the unusual days are much more readily recalled of course). This yard didn't handle coal class traffic

 

Going ahead of the date you asked about this also illustrates how the so called 'proportions' could vary -

A marshalling yard in 1973 over the course of a year - I Highfit loaded with coal, several Highfits a week loaded with PW materials to/from CCE depot, approx 35 circulating Vanfits (Downside for vachead then put back into Upside for shunting as empties waiting load, then back to the Downside for…..), probably no more than 2 'genuine' Vanfits a week in a busy week, various PW wagons including ballast hoppers and bogie vehicles loaded with track or parts thereof, approx 4,000 - 5,000 mineral wagons passing through loaded in a busy week in the Down direction, another 800 or so passing through loaded in the opposite direction plus a few thousand empties going that way as well of course.

[Rivercider]

Julian,

 

is this question relating to wagons for your layout thread Somercombe?

 

I have been looking through 'The Salisbury to Exeter Line' by Derek Phillips & George Pryer,

There are quite a few photos of freight trains and yards for the time span you mention.

The ratio of 10 : 1 for Vans / opens does seem a bit steep.

There is a 1958 shot at Tisbury with a long raft of sheeted opens, several shots of Templecombe

with opens in the background. A 1963 shot at Seaton Jn with opens, but they may be engineers (grampus?)

A 1962 ahot at Broad Clyst of an up freight has a lot of opens, some of them may have originated from

the Engineers depot at that location.

There are of course a lot of vanfits, and also containers, I think meat from North Devon/Cornwall

produced a lot of traffic.

There are also pictures of minerals of coal, and references to Exmouth Junction loco coal on that route.

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

Julian,

 

is this question relating to wagons for your layout thread Somercombe?

 

I have been looking through 'The Salisbury to Exeter Line' by Derek Phillips & George Pryer,

There are quite a few photos of freight trains and yards for the time span you mention.

The ratio of 10 : 1 for Vans / opens does seem a bit steep.

There is a 1958 shot at Tisbury with a long raft of sheeted opens, several shots of Templecombe

with opens in the background. A 1963 shot at Seaton Jn with opens, but they may be engineers (grampus?)

 

cheers

 

 

Tisbury was at that time involved with some rather specialised traffic for nearby sidings - the RAF often preferred their stuff in sheeted opens (especially bombs which were far more easily handled in open wagons)

[Pennine MC]

- the RAF often preferred their stuff in sheeted opens (especially bombs which were far more easily handled in open wagons)

 

Mmm, I believe several LMS diagram 2094 were lost in action over Germany.

 

 

 

 

 

[Caledonian]

Without quarrelling with any of the above I'd add a couple of observations based on intensive study of photographs.

 

Firstly, with reference to the OP; the steel highs recently released by Bachmann don't appear to have been that common. Yes, you can pick them out in photos, but they are in a distinct minority by comparison with wooden bodied vehicles and 16T steel minerals.

 

Secondly there does appear to be a marked difference between the composition of what might be termed inter-regional and local freight, or to put it in simpler terms, long and short trains.

Leaving aside block trains of coal or other minerals, vans seem to predominate in most long goods trains; short ones, whether trip workings or branch lines, seem to have more opens, including minerals.

[Pennine MC]

Firstly, with reference to the OP; the steel highs recently released by Bachmann don't appear to have been that common. Yes, you can pick them out in photos, but they are in a distinct minority by comparison with wooden bodied vehicles and 16T steel minerals.

 

Everything is in a distinct minority compared to 16 tonners, they outnumbered (for instance) BR standard Vanfits by a factor of 10:1 or more, dependent on period.

 

Again though I'd be careful about drawing assumptions from photos, no matter how intensive. Again in ball park terms, the LNER ordered over 8,600 steel Highs, with BR following up with another 9,500 or so plus nearly 3,000 to a modified body style which isnt represented by Bachmann. Any wagon type that numbers 22,000 or so isn't 'rare', and as time went on and older designs were thinned out, they'd become proportionally more common

[JZ]

Most of the books I have cover SR and as DesA says, there is a preponderence of vans, maybe not as high as the 10:1 ratio I mentioned ealier. I think I will buy at a 1:1 ratio to bring the balance up.

Thanks for the input people.

[Oldddudders]

Southern Region - as distinct from Southern Railway - wagon "policy", dictated to it by BRB, was predicated on paying the Wagon Pool, i.e. returning to the other Regions (LM & E principally) the empties which were always lying around on SR with not much chance of a return load. This was a continuous process, with Southern marshalling yards charged with making up full train-lengths to other Regions when there were empties to be had. In the Pre-TOPS era, this was a tortuous exercise, because every yard supervisor everywhere likes to have a reserve of vehicles on hand just in case. Thus the Southern could on occasions be seen by other Regions - and BRB - as a sort of black hole, into which loaded vehicles were poured daily, never to return, which was an embarrassment if you were trying to keep up with e.g. colliery output and always short of wagons.

 

Anyone modelling a route with trains from SR onto the LM or E Regions should bear this in mind - plenty of empties, including vanfits in the fitted head, should be visible on northbound trains.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Secondly there does appear to be a marked difference between the composition of what might be termed inter-regional and local freight, or to put it in simpler terms, long and short trains.

Leaving aside block trains of coal or other minerals, vans seem to predominate in most long goods trains; short ones, whether trip workings or branch lines, seem to have more opens, including minerals.

 

One problem with photos of trains is that the photographer was usually interested in the loco hence the more photogenic passenger or mixed traffic classes were probably more frequently phot'd on freights than many of the lesser (or 'less interesting') classes. This would I suspect tend to result in more of the faster, higher Class, freight trains being photographed than the 'ordinary' freights. Not sure - but on some parts of the country a strong probability and far more likely for an A4 to phot'd on a freight than a B16 I suspect.

[newport_rod]

Wagon distribution.pdf

Not being able to visualise big numbers well, I've displayed Paul's figures graphically in the attached pfd. Thanks for providing the info Paul.

Rod

[JZ]

Thank for that Rod. Really useful.