RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 A bit of a step out of my comfort zone as a GW modeller….. I'm slowly working on putting together coach formations for my new garage layout, one particular service I would like to model is either a Plymouth Liverpool or a Penzance Crew. Both of which included a mix of GWR and LMS stock. The period will be between the end of the war and nationalisation. From my research so far looking at coach working documents and the example formations on Comet’s website. The Plymouth Liverpool had a section containing LMS BTK, RC (alternating GWR / LMS, LMS CK and LMS BTK. While the Penzance – Crew formation was a little less clear, again having an alternating change on the RC, and sometimes included LMS coaching stock in the formation.) Ideally I am hoping to work with RTR models, (I have enough brass coaches to build for GW prototypes as it is), however I have no idea how the LMS formed their stock off region and if kits are needed to do it accurately, kits it will be. For the RC the intention is to use the ex Dapol model (I think I am right in saying this is a P2 D1811?) Which will require flush glazing along with sorting out those chassis cut outs). For the breaks I was hoping to make use of the recent Hornby period 3, which leaves the CK for which I guess it’s the Bachmann period 1 (assuming it is fairly accurate) or back to kit building. Does this sound a fair representation, or do I need to be thinking about kit building older stock? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Can't help with 1945-7 For the mid-thirties, judging from the photographs, there was a preponderance of ex-LNWR stock used. At that stage, the Stannier types were new, and, as you might expect, the photographs don't show them on humble cross-country services at that time. So, I mix ex-LNWR types with early LMS designs. If, like me, you only need Brake Thirds and Composites (see below), the Bachmann Period I coaches will suit. The Hornby/Dapol 12-wheel Period II Composite Diner is good for the Thirties (if memory serves it is the dia. you mention), as is an ex-WCJS vehicle. What location is your layout based in? The following formations are as running on the South Devon mainline: 2100 Cardiff - Penzance: PBV / 70' Slip / Bloater / Bloater / Bloater / LMS Van / PBV / PBV / PBV / Van 0845 Plymouth - Crewe: Compo / Compo / LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third 0235 Shrewsbury - Penzance: TPO / PBV / Brake Compo / LMS PBV /LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third / LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS PBV / PBV 0745 Penzance - Crewe: GW or LMS Restaurant / Van Third / Compo / Van Third / Brake Compo / Brake Compo 1300 Plymouth - Crewe: Bloater / Bloater / Bloater / Brake Compo / GW or LMS Restaurant / LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third / Brake Compo 0950 Bathampton - Plymouth: Third / Third / Third / Siphon G / Brake Compo / LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS PBV 1215 Penzance - Crewe: TPO / Third / Brake Compo / Siphon G / LMS OBV / LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third / Brake Composite 1032 Crewe - Plymouth: Brake Compo / LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third / GW or LMS Restaurant 1420 Penzance - Crewe: Van / LMS PBV / PBV / PBV / PBV / Van 1705 Penzance - Crewe: LMS Brake Third / LMS Compo / LMS PBV / LMS PBV / LMS Compo / LMS Brake Third Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The LMS seems to have liked the Brake Third + Compo combination for train sections, so the Bachmann/Mainline period 1 coaches are useful for this sort of service. From the 1938 workings, GWR stock unless otherwise noted B is van end leading, A is van end trailing: 10.32am Crewe Plymouth 6.4pm Ref Van TO Paddington Plymouth (Taunton) Bk Compo B Birkenhead Plymouth Van Third Liverpool Plymouth Compo Liverpool Plymouth GWR/LMS Dining Car Liverpool Plymouth Van Third Liverpool Plymouth Bk Compo Liverpool Kingswear Compo Manchester Kingswear Van Third Manchester Kingswear Third MO Manchester Cardiff Compo Manchester Cardiff Van Third A Manchester Cardiff Bk Compo Birkenhead Cardiff (Shrewsb'y) 1.10pm Crewe Plymouth 9.5pm Bk Compo B Birkenhead Plymouth GWR/LMS Van Third B Liverpool Plymouth GWR/LMS Compo Liverpool Plymouth GWR/LMS Van Third A Liverpool Plymouth GWR/LMS Dining car Liverpool Plymouth Bk Compo Manchester Plymouth Compo Manchester Kingswear Van Third Manchester Kingswear Compo Manchester Carmarthen Van Third A Manchester Carmarthen Bk Compo B Birkenhead Carmarthen Ref Van ThO Hereford Cardiff 4.7pm Crewe Bristol 8.6pm To Plymouth FSO from Jun 3, 1938 Bk Compo Birkenhead Plymouth Dining Car Shrewsbury Bristol Bk Compo Glasgow Plymouth LMS Van Third Liverpool Plymouth LMS Compo Liverpool Plymouth LMS Van Third A Liverpool Plymouth Compo Manchester Paignton Van Third Manchester Paignton Compo Manchester Cardiff Van Third A Manchester Cardiff Bk Compo Manchester Cardiff LMS Bk Van Manchester Cardiff Bk Compo Birkenhead Cardiff Siphon G SX Brierley Hill Cardiff Van Dudley Cardiff 2801/2 -- this is one of the GWR Palethorpes vans Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 Thanks to both, The layout will be set somewhere on the mainline between Bristol and the SW (the exact location is still TBD) Will look out for a couple of Bachmann P1 stock along with the dining car Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted August 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 This is an interesting subject and would like to form a train myself for a cross country service in 1947.The Wild Swan book GWR in South Devon has workings but no diagrams of coaches used unfortunately. I wouldn't fancy building Comet LMS kits as there are many GW I want first but rtr would be a nice option if available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 Was thinking that such a rake would look rather good on Brent! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 OK, Fatadder, given the location, I would nudge you more towards Adrian's reply. He includes portions that would not be present in my formations, e.g portions for Kingswear that come off at Aller Junction. I would have to go back to the full working timetable to put back all the bits of trains that I had cut out! As Adrian's list is nearer in date than mine, you are better off with his. Robin, the Wild Swan book does not give you the class of each coach, e.g. Van Third, Brake Composite etc. You would need a coach working timetable for this. I have one for Winter 1932-33 (early July is winter!) and I would guess that Adrian has one for 1938. There is a publication that gives you this information for, if I recall, 1931-2; Train Formations & Carriage Workings by W S Becket. As to diagrams, the diagrams typical of certain services have to be spotted from contemporary photographs, of which I would have thought there would be a reasonable abundance for 1947. I can give you the official consist for everything express that ran through Brent, but it would be over 10 years out of date. That said, I recall Becket spends some time emphasising how little the GW timetable changed between 1922 and 1932, though there are bound to be some changes in the formations I would have thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted August 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 Looking at Adrian's and your excellent lists some of the workings were quite long.I like to keep my lengths to six or seven coaches max otherwise they look silly on my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 If you can find a copy (currently out of print), Dragonwheel Books published a reprint of the 1937-38 winter through train carriage workings, which is where the formations above came from. Currently none shown on AbeBooks, but this has the details http://www.abebooks.com/9781905014538/Great-Western-Railway-Programme-Working-1905014538/plp Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Looking at Adrian's and your excellent lists some of the workings were quite long.I like to keep my lengths to six or seven coaches max otherwise they look silly on my layout. The third one I posted would have only been 7 coaches south of Bristol (after the Cardiff and Bristol coaches were cut off). GWR BCK GWR BCK LMS BTK LMS CK LMS BTK GWR CK GWR BTK With current RTR you could do that with Bachmann/Mainline Collet BCKs, Bachmann/Mainline Period 1 LMS stock, and Hornby Colletts. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Robin, Plenty of formations, and not just cross-country but WoE, will fit your bill. This is not ECML! Based on length, you can pick your services for 1947 from the summaries in the Wild Swan volume, but use the coach working timetable to get the (theoretically) correct consist. My dodge is to use the winter timetable (good to first or second week of July), and to choose a weekday. Summer Saturdays are avoided! If I re-marshal stock for each balancing service, I could probably represent, full length, every through service with no more than, say, 120 coaches (!). What a thing to do though, to depict a full 24 timetable using prototypical formations for a British mainline. Oh no, the full insanity of my plan is now revealed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted August 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2015 The third one I posted would have only been 7 coaches south of Bristol (after the Cardiff and Bristol coaches were cut off). GWR BCK GWR BCK LMS BTK LMS CK LMS BTK GWR CK GWR BTK With current RTR you could do that with Bachmann/Mainline Collet BCKs, Bachmann/Mainline Period 1 LMS stock, and Hornby Colletts. Adrian Thanks Adrian.Would the LMS panelled type be suitable as produced by Mainline and are readily available via ebay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Thanks Adrian.Would the LMS panelled type be suitable as produced by Mainline and are readily available via ebay. They would be fine, although you might also see ex-LNWR 50' stock (Ratio kits) or Period 3 stock (Airfix/Hornby) or a mix of them. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Robin, I concur, as you are 12 years on from me, so I would think that the Period III Stannier coaches would be fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 This is an interesting topic that I looked into a bit as I wanted to run some west to North-west workings on my 1947 Cornwall-based GWR layout. Just in case followers of this thread haven't seen it, one of the most useful things I found is a list of train formations for autumn 1946 reproduced in the GWR journal, including some interregional workings to and from the LMS which I posted on p2 of the thread below. One of the things that puzzles me about this list is that an LMS Royal Mail sorting van is recorded as running between Penzance and Paddington and back on the GWR TPO. I could understand if it was dropped off/picked up at Bristol and then worked to and from the North West, but the list suggests it ran the entire route between Paddington and Penzance. Does anyone have any insights or ideas about why this LMS vehicle was in the GWR TPO? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71869-lms-coaches-on-plymouth-trains/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 18, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2016 Very interesting thanks, think I will have to track down a copy of that article Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 ...One of the things that puzzles me about this list is that an LMS Royal Mail sorting van is recorded as running between Penzance and Paddington and back on the GWR TPO. I could understand if it was dropped off/picked up at Bristol and then worked to and from the North West, but the list suggests it ran the entire route between Paddington and Penzance. Does anyone have any insights or ideas about why this LMS vehicle was in the GWR TPO?... Assuming the record to be correct first thought would be an agreed inter-company transfer of a specialised vehicle to 'cover' an operational problem. This is immediately post war, there's a huge maintenance deficit generally, and the GWR finds itself temporarily short of a vehicle to operate the traffic volume Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.