BR Blue Spot fish vans - a question of numbers

[Western Star]

This topic relates to the BR insulated fish vans which were built to a LNER design, allocated diagram number 1/255 in the freight diagram book, with LNER style brake gear and roller bearings.

 

Information on internet pages indicates that the above vans were converted to carry parcels in the 1970s and that most of the vans were withdrawn by the end of the decade.  What I wish to know is some running numbers for those vans which lasted "to the end".

 

Suggestions?

 

thank you, Graham Beare

Edited November 15, 2019 by Western Star

[Rivercider]

Have you had a look at Paul Bartletts photographic site?

The ones that survived to be used in parcels traffic were known as Special  Parcels Vans (SPV) and received a TOPS code of NRV.

Aylesbury, I think, seemed to use a lot of them from memory.

 

Once they were surplus to requirements in parcels traffic a number were then further used as barrier wagons with a TOPS code of RBV.

 

Pauls site shows for example E87263 with LNER brake rigging at Stoke in 1981, albeit by then in use as a barrier vehicle.

 

edit  E87293 with LNER brake rigging is seen at Norwich in 1990 in departmental use

E87343 and E87351 were other late survivors 

 

cheers

Edited December 23, 2015 by Rivercider

[stovepipe]

The 1/255 diagram was 1/800 in NPCCS-speak. This is the model Hornby have made recently. There were some of this diagram converted to Special Parcels Vans (SPV), but the later 1/801 diagram were much more common, though this type is not available in kit or R-T-R form. The later diagram lasted in traffic until about 1981, often seen in the Aylesbury area related to Readers Digest traffic.

 

The number series of the 1/800 was E87000 - E87499. There were just a handful left in 1978, and all gone the following year.

[jonny777]

SPV  E87108 just manages to creep into this photo of 24023 at Stoke on 3rd May 1976.

 

 

[stovepipe]

From the 1978 RCTS book, the very last 1/800s in service were E87037, E87150, E87152, E87171, E87209, E87262.

Edited December 23, 2015 by stovepipe

[Western Star]

Have you had a look at Paul Bartletts photographic site?

The ones that survived to be used in parcels traffic were known as Special  Parcels Vans (SPV) and received a TOPS code of NRV.

Aylesbury, I think, seemed to use a lot of them from memory.

 

Pauls site shows for example E87263 with LNER brake rigging at Stoke in 1981, albeit by then in use as a barrier vehicle.

 

edit  E87293 with LNER brake rigging is seen at Norwich in 1990 in departmental use, E87343 and E87351 were other late survivors 

 

Thank you, I have looked at Paul's website, my understanding is that the vans in blue / parcels service are all from the build with BR brake rigging and that variant cannot be built (easily) from the Parkside kit. 

 

 

The 1/255 diagram was 1/800 in NPCCS-speak. ... There were some of this diagram converted to Special Parcels Vans (SPV), but the later 1/801 diagram were much more common. The later diagram lasted in traffic until about 1981, often seen in the Aylesbury area related to Readers Digest traffic.

 

The number series of the 1/800 was E87000 - E87499. There were just a handful left in 1978, and all gone the following year.

 

There was regular traffic for the SPVs from a printing company in Aylesbury...  carrying Readers Digest.  The print company had a management buy-out circa summer 1981 and that apparently put an end to the parcels contract.  Diagram 801 seems to be the more prevalent at Aylesbury towards the end of the 1970s... the Parkside 7mm kit is for the diagram 800 vans with LNER brake rigging.

 

 

 

From the 1978 RCTS book, the very last 1/800s in service were E87037, E87150, E87152, E87171, E87209, E87262.

Excellent, thank you. Are the vans listed in RCTS those diagram 800 vans which were painted blue and in use for express parcels traffic?

 

thanks all, Graham

Edited December 23, 2015 by Western Star

[Andy Kirkham]

You can see one number here

MAR 75 18. Aylesbury by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[stovepipe]

Excellent, thank you. Are the vans listed in RCTS those diagram 800 vans which were painted blue and in use for express parcels traffic?

 

thanks all, Graham

 

They are listed together with the 1/801s, all under the SPV category, so yes I would assume so. There is an ebay seller called TrotskeeTravel who periodically lists a number of photos of SPVs at Aylesbury, Watford and Hemel Hempstead from around 1979/80, all of which appear to be the 1/801 type. Even so, they give a good idea of the condition these vans had got into after 10+ years in Parcels service.

[Fat Controller]

There were examples of the ones with the LNER-derived brake gear that went into parcels use. David Larkin's most recent book, BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated stock, Volume 2 has a few examples:-

E87121, photographed in 1978 at Longhedge Jct.

E87160, photographed at Stranrear in 1972.

Both the above have the full 'Express Parcels' livery

There's also a view of E87114, in Ice-Blue livery, but lettered 'Parcels Van'

What intrigues me is the VXV; former Insulfishes which went into the BR Freight fleet, rather than the Parcels one. I saw at least one vehicle so lettered at Bristol in the mid 1970s; I suspect they might have been used for tobacco and similar high-value products, as the doors were easier to secure than those of Vanwides and Vanfits.

The printing works at Aylesbury were part of BPPC, the conglomerate established by the late and unlamented Captain Bob. Apart from 'Reader's Digest', they used to print 'Radio Times' and other popular magazines. Watford would have been 'Odhams' traffic. Not sure who was in Hemel Hempstead.

[stovepipe]

Yes indeed - the 1972 RCTS book lists over 200 in parcels service of the 500 diag 1/800 vans made. Generally speaking these were selected from the 87000-274 range which had previously been fitted with roller bearings (as per the Hornby model), whilst the vanfits (diag 1/255) came from the 87275-87499 range, which kept their original journal axles. Some of the roller bearing vans transferred from Parcels and/or Fish use to Freight use, taking diag 1/256 in the process.

 

RCTS have a photo of a Parcels 1/800 at Bristol - search for CUL2976.

 

There were paper mills at Hemel Hempstead, well Apsley really. I wonder if these Parcels van were taking paper from there to Aylesbury. Certainly some of the photos I mentioned earlier feature the same vans at both places.

[roythebus]

I remember the vans at Hemel Hempstead when i worked on the midland in 1974; where they we to and what they carried I never knew.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

Excellent, thank you. Are the vans listed in RCTS those diagram 800 vans which were painted blue and in use for express parcels traffic?

 

thanks all, Graham

I think that if they weren't parcel vans they wouldn't have been in the book, as it was a coaching stock and NPCCS book.

 

Mike.

[eastwestdivide]

To add to the info from the RCTS 1978 coaching stock book, it actually lists 162 "Special Parcels Vans", SPV or TOPS NRV.

Numbers range from M87013 to E88057. It says "Converted from Insulated Fish Vans built 1954-1961, some of which remain in service - particularly in Departmental stock."

In the back of the book, lot numbers are:

87000-87499, lot 30125 of 1954, Faverdale

87500-87692, lot 30344 of 1960, Faverdale

87693-87957, lot 30384 of 1960, Faverdale

87958-88057, lot 30442 of 1961, Faverdale

Examples from all 4 lots were still listed in the main listing of 162 vans, all of which were shown with E or M prefixes.

 

The previous book (1976) listed 278 vans.

 

The 1980 book still listed 78 vans, of which 20 from lot 30344, 40 from lot 30384, and 18 from lot 30442.

 

The 1981 book still listed 25 vans,  of which 3 from lot 30344, 19 from lot 30384, and 3 from lot 30442.

 

The 1982 book listed none.

 

I don't have any info linking the lot numbers to diagram numbers.

[Fat Controller]

Yes indeed - the 1972 RCTS book lists over 200 in parcels service of the 500 diag 1/800 vans made. Generally speaking these were selected from the 87000-274 range which had previously been fitted with roller bearings (as per the Hornby model), whilst the vanfits (diag 1/255) came from the 87275-87499 range, which kept their original journal axles. Some of the roller bearing vans transferred from Parcels and/or Fish use to Freight use, taking diag 1/256 in the process.

 

RCTS have a photo of a Parcels 1/800 at Bristol - search for CUL2976.

 

There were paper mills at Hemel Hempstead, well Apsley really. I wonder if these Parcels van were taking paper from there to Aylesbury. Certainly some of the photos I mentioned earlier feature the same vans at both places.

Extremely unlikely they were carrying paper, as places like the Aylesbury and Watford were web-offset printers, who used very large reels of paper, like those that were to be seen on trains from Corpach. You probably wouldn't be able to fit them through the door! The vans would have been in a pool for 'periodicals' traffic- they'd have been worked to somewhere like Bletchley, and attached to whatever services would take them on to their ultimate destination. Coming back empty, they'd simply be dropped off at the same stations, but not necessarily in the same order, hence the same wagons being seen in the two locations.

[bubbles2]

Theres a few SPVs in this picture, it's also on my Flickr pages.

 

[/url]A Class 22 and Warship at Cockwood harbour Devon. by mailrail, on Flickr">http://A Class 22 and Warship at Cockwood harbour Devon. by mailrail, on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/BL5pLA

Edited December 24, 2015 by bubbles2

[stovepipe]

To add to the info from the RCTS 1978 coaching stock book, it actually lists 162 "Special Parcels Vans", SPV or TOPS NRV.

Numbers range from M87013 to E88057. It says "Converted from Insulated Fish Vans built 1954-1961, some of which remain in service - particularly in Departmental stock."

In the back of the book, lot numbers are:

87000-87499, lot 30125 of 1954, Faverdale

87500-87692, lot 30344 of 1960, Faverdale

87693-87957, lot 30384 of 1960, Faverdale

87958-88057, lot 30442 of 1961, Faverdale

Examples from all 4 lots were still listed in the main listing of 162 vans, all of which were shown with E or M prefixes.

 

The previous book (1976) listed 278 vans.

 

The 1980 book still listed 78 vans, of which 20 from lot 30344, 40 from lot 30384, and 18 from lot 30442.

 

The 1981 book still listed 25 vans,  of which 3 from lot 30344, 19 from lot 30384, and 3 from lot 30442.

 

The 1982 book listed none.

 

I don't have any info linking the lot numbers to diagram numbers.

Lot 30125 are the 1/800 vans the OP asked about. Actually if you look at the last page of the RCTS books you will usually see late information on withdrawals - in the case of 1978 book only 126 remained in service at time of publication.

[Fat Controller]

Theres a few SPVs in this picture, it's also on my Flickr pages.

 

[/url]A Class 22 and Warship at Cockwood harbour Devon. by mailrail, on Flickr">http://A Class 22 and Warship at Cockwood harbour Devon. by mailrail, on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/BL5pLA

Lovely photo. I'd say there are two different Diagrams of SPV there, judging by the differing roof profiles. There seemed to have been quite a lot of SPVs working into the South-West (one of Andy Kirkham's photos shows a string of them). I wonder what the traffic was? Radio Times down: pasties and clotted cream back?

[bubbles2]

A couple more...

[/url]D1060 Western Dominion St Budeaux June 69 by Chris England, on Flickr">http://D1060 Western Dominion St Budeaux June 69 by Chris England, on Flickr

 

[/url]D1008 Western Harrier St Budeaux Ferry Road 22nd June 1969 by Chris England, on Flickr">http://D1008 Western Harrier St Budeaux Ferry Road 22nd June 1969 by Chris England, on Flickr

 

[/url]APR 74 18. 1034 Western Dragoon approaching Drump lane with the 08:42 Plymouth-Penzance, April 17 1974. by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr">http://APR 74 18. 1034 Western Dragoon approaching Drump lane with the 08:42 Plymouth-Penzance, April 17 1974. by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/aByqPk

 

https://flic.kr/p/aByqWc

 

https://flic.kr/p/9AGCnc

Edited December 24, 2015 by bubbles2

[stovepipe]

Another SW photo here, first in 1/801, second is 1/800. They crop up at Bristol quite often in this period. Did Frys dispatch their goods by rail I wonder?

While I was waiting by Stephen Dowle, on Flickr

[stovepipe]

A couple more...

[/url]D1060 Western Dominion St Budeaux June 69 by Chris England, on Flickr">http://D1060 Western Dominion St Budeaux June 69 by Chris England, on Flickr

 

[/url]D1008 Western Harrier St Budeaux Ferry Road 22nd June 1969 by Chris England, on Flickr">http://D1008 Western Harrier St Budeaux Ferry Road 22nd June 1969 by Chris England, on Flickr

 

 

 

https://flic.kr/p/aByqPk

 

https://flic.kr/p/aByqWc

 

Nice shots. I have a WTT covering this period, but 6C59 (or 7C59) isn't listed sadly.

[toffee]

Remember the infamous Guide Bridge - Cardiff RM parcels ( dated, ran first week Oct- Xmas, last ran in '76 ) used to have anything from 2 to 20 of these hanging off the back end, sorry no numbers :-(

[cheesysmith]

A few questions please.

 

What is the difference between the diagram 800 & the 801? Can anybody show the difference with pictures?

 

As we now have a RTR and a kit of the 800, how hard would it be to model the 801?

[Fat Controller]

A few questions please.

 

What is the difference between the diagram 800 & the 801? Can anybody show the difference with pictures?

 

As we now have a RTR and a kit of the 800, how hard would it be to model the 801?

I think the differences are possibly too great:-

slight, but noticeable difference in roof profile- see the Cockwood Harbour shot

the 1/801s are slightly wider.

the strapping is different; the earlier 1/801s had diagonal side strapping but only vertical end strapping, whilst the later ones had both vertical and diagonal end strapping.

the brake gear was very different.

[stovepipe]

A few questions please.

 

What is the difference between the diagram 800 & the 801? Can anybody show the difference with pictures?

 

As we now have a RTR and a kit of the 800, how hard would it be to model the 801?

 

See photo straight above for some of the differences.

 

Diagonal strapping finshes below doors, different corner web detail. Roof not ribbed, and with more curve. Also different door handles.

[Rail-Online]

I remember these SPV vans well as i collected parcels van numbers in the late 1970s having 'cleared' all the locos. We always understood that they worked almost exclusively out of Aylesbury and were worked back to there for Readers Digest traffic. They were loaded and despatched in vehicle loads for each station/depot used to receive the RD catalogues. However the routes taken outand back to Aylesbury were far from direct, they being attached to any old parcels train heading in roughly the correct direction. I suppose they went to OOC and were sent on from there. Outward traffic was obviously associated with print runs of the mags.

 

I think they were sometimes 'borrowed' and used for other parcels traffic, but basically their small capacity was ideal for RD and it was their only reason for remaining in service.

 

Tony