JZ Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Has anyone converted he Bachmann 7F to a 1914 loco? I know the smokebox saddle needs modifying, the reverser need swapping sides as does the injector(?). But what else needs doing? I can live with cab detail being incorrect, as it will be hidden by crew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 If you swop the injector to the other side some bits may be the wrong way round, but I suspect your biggest problem may be getting the tender correct. The Bachmann 1925 model has the later Fowler tender with the coal DOOR tender front, but the 1914 series were built with Deeley tenders and these were not replaced by Fowler tenders until the 50s, and even then mostly the earlier Fowler tender with the coal HOLE tender front, indeed at least one of the 1914 series was withdrawn still with a Deeley tender. So far (and from memory because I'm away from home at the moment) I've only found photo evidence of one of the 1914 series attached to the later (Bachmann type) Fowler tender with the coal door tender front, and I think that was 53805. I can check more and dates next week if it will help. It's worth pointing out that of the 4 1925 series 7Fs produced so far, only one is modelled with the completely correct tender and that is 53808 with the Deeley/Fowler hybrid. 53806 should have the earlier Fowler tender with coal hole, and 53807 hasn't been done yet but should also have the coal hole tender. 53810 has correctly got the later coal door tender, but this loco also had an extra box mounted above the toolbox on the right hand side of the tender front (looking forward) and this has been omitted. That leaves 53809. This has been modelled as preserved with the coal door tender front, but in preservation this loco has a tender like I've described for 53810 above, ie coal doors and with the extra box which again is not on the model. Photos of 53809 in Barry scrap yard also show it with this extra box tender too, so it was that way in it's late BR days (withdrawn in late 1964). Now I've recently seen a video (at a guess about 1961 or 62) showing 53809 very clearly attached to an early coal hole Fowler tender, and as I've never seen a picture of any other late Fowler tender with the extra box attached to any loco (I can't say there definitely wasn't another one) I'm suspecting that when 53810 was withdrawn, it's tender was attached to 53809 for it's last few months, and hence 53909 was withdrawn with 53810s tender. So either way, the model of 53809 has the wrong tender although it was maybe nearly right for it's last few months (it shouldn't be too difficult to make this box). Being away from home at the moment I can't check the exact withdrawal dates. I would add that although there are plenty of photos of 7Fs, most are of a 3/4 view and you need an almost 'side on' shot to be able to see into the cab space and whether a tender has the coal door front (it's big and it sticks up). However there are generally enough and they are consistent. Some people suggest that photos can tell a lie because there could be lots of unrecorded tender swops at sheds, but my understanding is that there were very few tender changes in the whole life of the 7Fs, and this is born out by the tender records from Derby where they recorded the tender numbers each time a loco visited the works. Also it's my understanding that doing a tender swop was a pain in the a... and the fitters would much rather get out the welding gear and weld up a leak than try to disconnect tenders from locos. If you want to get it right though, all is not lost. Brassmasters now do an etch for a coal hole tender front. It's made for the Bachmann 4F but this is the same tender moulding as the 7F so will fit. It should also be useful for the tender attached to Hornby 4Fs and 2Ps. Apologies if this all sounds a bit complicated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 If you swop the injector to the other side some bits may be the wrong way round, but I suspect your biggest problem may be getting the tender correct. If you want to get it right though, all is not lost. Brassmasters now do an etch for a coal hole tender front. It's made for the Bachmann 4F but this is the same tender moulding as the 7F so will fit. It should also be useful for the tender attached to Hornby 4Fs and 2Ps. Apologies if this all sounds a bit complicated. I like a challenge. If I can pick up one at a reasonable price on ebay, I may do this. You mentioned about getting a decent side view. Going through Ivo Peters books, I can find several full left side shots of both builds, but only the right side of the 1925. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I like a challenge. If I can pick up one at a reasonable price on ebay, I may do this. You mentioned about getting a decent side view. Going through Ivo Peters books, I can find several full left side shots of both builds, but only the right side of the 1925. I doubt you'll get the etch on Ebay. It's new and they did it at my suggestion after I had a discussion with them at the 2014 Warley national exhibition at the NEC when I pointed out how many loco models have the wrong Fowler tender, or certainly do if your trying to renumber one (both Bachmann and Hornby). I didn't really expect them to 'pick up' on the idea so I was well surprised when I went along to their stand at the 2015 show and found that they had. They've incorporated it in an etch with other improved bits for Bachmann's 4F tender, but given that this is the same moulding as the 7F (things like tender water vents are different, 7Fs didn't have them), it's still appropriate. I've bought one, but havn't tried it out yet. Mine is to convert a Bachmann 4F into a BR late 50's/60s S&D Armstrong, which is a standard Midland RHD 4F with, in it's later days, a coal hole front Fowler tender. If you look at Brassmasters web site you'll find the details. I did suggest to them at the 2015 show that they did the tender front etch as a separate item because it could be used on so many other locos tenders, both Bachmann and Hornby. Whether they'll pick up on that, I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 Sorry, I meant a 7F on eBay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I wonder if anyone has tried to modify the Bachmann model into one of the large-boilered batch....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 There is someone who does a resin body kit of the large boiler loco. It was meant to fit onto the Hornby 8F chassis. When I looked at it, it didn't look fat enough to me, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 I wonder if anyone has tried to modify the Bachmann model into one of the large-boilered batch....? There is someone who does a resin body kit of the large boiler loco. It was meant to fit onto the Hornby 8F chassis. When I looked at it, it didn't look fat enough to me, Golden Arrow. I have one of these, but is has the standard smokebox door. Attempts to rectify this have come to nought. FWIW, Bachmann announced theirs the day after I finished it. . In the process of back dating it to LMS to work a 'heritage' train of local PO wagons. I have three Bachmann 7Fs, so any more would make me want to do one of the earlier ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 I have three Bachmann 7Fs, so any more would make me want to do one of the earlier ones. So your next project must be correcting the tender front of at least 2 of them ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted February 27, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2016 I wonder if anyone has tried to modify the Bachmann model into one of the large-boilered batch....? Yes I'm doing one now Ivan - ground to a halt because of the minuscule smoke box door on the golden arrow moulding as mentioned earlier. I'm awaiting a larger MR pattern one from 247 developments, so this thread is useful for me. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 Yes I'm doing one now Ivan - ground to a halt because of the minuscule smoke box door on the golden arrow moulding as mentioned earlier. I'm awaiting a larger MR pattern one from 247 developments, so this thread is useful for me. Neil Is that part No. SD3 ? Never thought of trying them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 So your next project must be correcting the tender front of at least 2 of them ? Yep. Will be adding parts to next order from BrassMasters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted February 27, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2016 Is that part No. SD3 ? Never thought of trying them. Yep. Will be adding parts to next order from BrassMasters. Sorry can't access the 247 site for some reason, I bought the largest pattern MR smokebox door they have - 19mm, which appears (roughly) correct for the Golden arrow mould. I tried and failed to get a drawing of the large boilered variant to get the precise dimension. It was ordered a couple of weeks ago, still hasn't arrived, will advise if it appears to fit the bill. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted February 27, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2016 Here's the state of play with my large boilered 7F. I've razor sawed away the Bachmann boiler and used the Golden arrow mould as a boiler donor. The new smokebox door I hope will make a big difference as the mould looks malnourished and doesn't capture the chunkier appearance of the prototype. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Bachmann haven't done 53807 because it had a new smokebox saddle when give a smaller boiler instead of the packing piece fitted to the others. It just wants the sides of the saddle modding really. Surely the best source for a 1914 Deeley tender is the NRM Compound. Why? you ask. Because the tender fitted to the preserved 1000 is one of those S&DJR 2-8-0 tenders. It was the only Deeley tender about in 1959 when 1000 was restored to working order. The clue is in the front tender cut-out which reflected the loco cab shape for the tender cab originally fitted rather than the larger cut-out similar to that at the rear. Another possible source for a tender is the Great British Locomotives one which was a virtually copy of the NRM model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Here's the state of play with my large boilered 7F. I've razor sawed away the Bachmann boiler and used the Golden arrow mould as a boiler donor. The new smokebox door I hope will make a big difference as the mould looks malnourished and doesn't capture the chunkier appearance of the prototype. Neil Have you thought about what to do with the tender. Given that the last 3 (6,7 and 8 ) of the 1925 series had been converted to carrying the small boiler by the mid 50s (I think the first 2 (9 and 10) were done in the 30s) and they'd kept the Fowler tenders that they were built with up to that point, I would think that your only tender option is to convert your Bachmann one to the 'coal hole' version using the Brassmasters 4F etch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Surely the best source for a 1914 Deeley tender is the NRM Compound. Why? you ask. Because the tender fitted to the preserved 1000 is one of those S&DJR 2-8-0 tenders. It was the only Deeley tender about in 1959 when 1000 was restored to working order. The clue is in the front tender cut-out which reflected the loco cab shape for the tender cab originally fitted rather than the larger cut-out similar to that at the rear. Another possible source for a tender is the Great British Locomotives one which was a virtually copy of the NRM model. The Deeley tender also had a full width box behind the rear coal plate on the back of the tender top. I don't know what this was, but depending on the angle of a picture this is another way of spotting a Deeley tender. Your tender option is going to depend very much upon your modelling period. You've got the option of Deeley (what they were built with), Fowler with coal hole front, or Fowler with coal door front. At least one 1914 series went for scrapping with a Deeley tender (I've seen a picture), and at least one (from memory 53805) by mid 1958 had a Fowler coal door tender. I'm away from home at the moment so havn't got access to all my records. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted February 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2016 Have you thought about what to do with the tender. Given that the last 3 (6,7 and 8 ) of the 1925 series had been converted to carrying the small boiler by the mid 50s (I think the first 2 (9 and 10) were done in the 30s) and they'd kept the Fowler tenders that they were built with up to that point, I would think that your only tender option is to convert your Bachmann one to the 'coal hole' version using the Brassmasters 4F etch. Many thanks for this. I am still pondering the tender as the variants on the 7Fs are a bit of a minefield to say the least, so your advice CM is invaluable. It will either be 6 or 7, in early 1950s condition. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Many thanks for this. I am still pondering the tender as the variants on the 7Fs are a bit of a minefield to say the least, so your advice CM is invaluable. It will either be 6 or 7, in early 1950s condition. Neil That's quite easy then, the tender choice for 53806 and 53807 when fitted with the large boiler is quite clear. It has to be the early Fowler tender with coal hole, given that later photos when the locos had the small boiler all show them with this, and Derby's record cards (which go up to mid 62 for these 2) confirm it showing them attached to their original tender until then. The large boilers for these 2 locos were swopped for small ones in Aug 55 and May 54 respectively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted February 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2016 This whole tender issue is a real minefield, isn't it? Does anyone have a definitive list of what tenders were paired with what locos over the years, including details of any changes of tender? Also, for the avoidance of doubt, sources of photos of the various types of tender would probably also come in very handy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I havn't come across a definitive list though that doesn't of course mean that someone somewhere hasn't produced one. The Somerset & Dorset Trust's regular magazine Pines Express, has in issue no 255 of winter 2009, a very good article by George Moon that's all about the 7F tenders together with a big table showing lots of detail. The main sources of information are the (official I think) Engine Record Cards held by the trust, presumably from Derby works. However he also mentions another set of record cards quoted by Oliver Maitland in an article in British Railways Illustrated of June 1995. There is apparently conflicting information between the two sets and virtually nothing about 53802 in either as an example. Also by the late 50s, and although official engine record cards at this time were still being maintained, it seems not everything was always recorded. Ivo Peters photos (where you can usually rely upon the caption info and dates) indicate tender type changes that hadn't been recorded, ie the current tender number hasn't been recorded on a works visit because the record indicates the original tender still. Also by the early 60s, nothing at all was being recorded. What can be relied upon is that the 1914 series started with Deeley tenders, and the 1925 series with the earlier Fowler tender which had a coal hole. I think these may be referred to as 'Old Standard'. Also tender type changes didn't start until the 50s. My own information comes from an analysis of pictures and videos, and I do have a lot of books and publications, a lot more than just the Ivo Peters books (and it's not only 7F tenders, I've done the S&Ds 3F, 4F, and 22xx tenders too). However, although there are hundreds of 7F pictures, with most you can't tell which of the 3 tender types it is. With the Fowler tender you need more than a 45 degree angle shot into the cab space to be able to see if the top of the coal doors are there (they're a big lump sticking up) . I have come up with the odd surprise. For example I'm pretty sure that the preserved 53809 was withdrawn and preserved with the tender from 53810. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkirby Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 I am having a go at doing this myself using a Bachmann 7F that came with the Deeley/Fowler Hybrid tender. I bought a GBL Compound cheap on ebay, and the tender body fits perfectly to the Bachmann chassis, that is once you remove the bits that the screws from the old frames connect to. I also had to turn the circuit board through 90° Remove the water tank vents, add wire handrails, coal and a pair Whitaker tablet catchers, (I made these from evergreen and brass wire rather than use the spare Bachmann ones as the way they were mounted was different from the later versions). A coat of paint and job done.. . . for the tender at least! On the loco I have so far modified the smoke box saddle, this was surprisingly easy once the boiler was removed from the running plate. I am currently redoing the sandbox fillers, as these seem quite different from the '25 batch, then will replace the reversing rod on the right hand side. I have also removed the boiler handrails and the ejector/injector (I can never remember which it is) with the intention of cutting it about to reverse it for use on the right rather than the left. this bit didn't go quite as well, as most of the handrail knobs decided to break just behind the handrail rather than pull out of the boiler. But I think with careful use of glue and this should be recoverable. Things still to do: I will move the screw reverse to the other side of the cab, but other than that will leave the cab as it is. I will probably leave the front lamp irons alone as well, as from pictures, at least some of the '14 batch had a kind of raised position. I will get a Midland builders plate from somewhere, I think I have seen some on the etches from my still to be built Gibson kit. Are there any other differances anyone can think of that I have missed? regards, Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2016 IIRC, the hybrid tender that still runs with 88/53808 was paired with 53800 until that loco was withdrawn. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Try Alan Gibson Workshop for a Midland ejector and, of course, handrail knobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkirby Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Thought of that Bruce, already have a supply of Gibson handrail knobs, but wasn't sure if they did an ejector for right hand drive, Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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