LMS Signalling

[Moses of the Mail]

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Can any please advise me as to whether ground signals can be used to permit trains to pass a starting or home signal for shunting purposes when the train being shunted has to use a single track main line as the head shunt or would a calling on arm be required on the signal post? In this particular scenario any train passing a clear starting signal would first have to collect a token. The station approaches would be protected by an outer home signal.

 

Thanks in advance

[The Stationmaster]

Are you shunting into the advance section or into the rear section?  There are differences and they would apply also to any signal used, or not used, to signal the movement.

 

If you're shunting into the rear section you're most likely to be starting the move in the wrong direction so it would inevitably be a shunting signal (assuming any fixed signal at all).  If you're shunting into the advance section it might involve clearing the running signal (which would mean obtaining a token) or it might be done with a subsidiary signal working as a Shunt Ahead signal.  However a co-located shunting signal such as a ground disc would not normally be use for that sort of movement.

 

Outer Home Signals are in many resects irrelevant except when you are shunting into the rear section as its presence would decide the difference between Blocking Back Inside the Home Signal and Blocking Back outside the Home Signal,  If you are shunting into the advance (forward section) an Outer Home is irrelevant because the protection is is provided by the single line token and the block system and a train could not normally be accepted from the opposite direction.

 

Note also soem of these things are date dependent beacuse of the way the Regulations have changed over the years.

[Moses of the Mail]

Are you shunting into the advance section or into the rear section?  There are differences and they would apply also to any signal used, or not used, to signal the movement.

 

If you're shunting into the rear section you're most likely to be starting the move in the wrong direction so it would inevitably be a shunting signal (assuming any fixed signal at all).  If you're shunting into the advance section it might involve clearing the running signal (which would mean obtaining a token) or it might be done with a subsidiary signal working as a Shunt Ahead signal.  However a co-located shunting signal such as a ground disc would not normally be use for that sort of movement.

 

Outer Home Signals are in many resects irrelevant except when you are shunting into the rear section as its presence would decide the difference between Blocking Back Inside the Home Signal and Blocking Back outside the Home Signal,  If you are shunting into the advance (forward section) an Outer Home is irrelevant because the protection is is provided by the single line token and the block system and a train could not normally be accepted from the opposite direction.

 

Note also soem of these things are date dependent beacuse of the way the Regulations have changed over the years.

The station on question is a single line branch terminus with the goods sidings leaving the main line via a facing point. All shunting movement involve use of the main line and goods trains are assembled in either the platform road or loop. Access to the station is controlled by an outer home signal with two ground signals adjacent. The station in question is Clayton West.

[Grovenor]

Ground signals adjacent to an outer home seems rather odd. Have you any signal diagram ?

Regards

[ForestPines]

The SRS has the diagram for sale, and the preview on the website is clear enough to show that there was no shunt ahead arm on the section signal (and unsurprisingly no colocated shunting signal).

 

For arriving trains there is an outer home signal, followed by an inner home with two colocated discs - one for the loop and one for the yard or colliery.

 

See http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M305.gif

[meil]

I can't speak for the L&Y but the Midland Railway allowed goods to access the main line (of a single line) with nothing more than a ground signal. See Ilkeston Town.

 

I think the fact that it is a single line saves it as the train needs a token as well as the signal.

[Moses of the Mail]

The SRS has the diagram for sale, and the preview on the website is clear enough to show that there was no shunt ahead arm on the section signal (and unsurprisingly no colocated shunting signal).

 

For arriving trains there is an outer home signal, followed by an inner home with two colocated discs - one for the loop and one for the yard or colliery.

 

See http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M305.gif

You are right about the two co-located discs, but freight arrivals had to use the platform and loop to revers, the train was then pulled forward onto the main line before setting back into the yard. There is a single arm signal post depicted in the diagram situated just before the access point to the goods yard and I assume the token would have to be collected before this signal could be cleared. An ex Hillhouse engine man has also confirmed that all trains including freights had to arrive and depart from either the loop line or platform road, This would allow the token to be collected and signal cleared. Now it is reasonably clear that the exit from the yard would be controlled by a shunting signal as the train would not be proceeding beyond the station limit. The question is what controlled the movement of freight from the loop line or platform in order for them to set back into the yard? If a signal post can incorporate both starting and shunting arms why can't a ground signal be used adjacent to the signal post instead of the shunting arm? 

[Moses of the Mail]

I can't speak for the L&Y but the Midland Railway allowed goods to access the main line (of a single line) with nothing more than a ground signal. See Ilkeston Town.

 

I think the fact that it is a single line saves it as the train needs a token as well as the signal.

I don't think they would need the token as the would not leave the station limit.

[beast66606]

The starter would be released by the token, any movement not requiring that clear would not need a token and, from my observations in the 1970s, I suspect anything which only required an engine and wagon or two (if the goods was particularly long) was also waved passed the signal.  There is no need for the train to set back into the platform or loop and depart from there, although the fireman would still have to go and get a token of course.

 

The ground signals for arrivals would (possibly) be provided to give detection on the points which are not immediately in front of the box and not totally visible to the bobby.

[The Stationmaster]

Question now rather different.  and it is (obviously) an awful long time since I went to Clayton West and it was in any case on its last legs by then.

 

But we know, thanks to Moses of the Mill, how the place was worked and even the small scale diagram on the SRS website helps answer most of the questions so -

 

Train arrives on platform line and the engine runs round.  But although the position of the track circuits aren't clear on the small SRS diagram the signalling suggest the engine would have to set back in rear of the Home Signal in order to get round the train and that any shunting moves would also have to do the same (the joints in the track circuits might have allowed corners to be cut but that was what the signalling provided for).

 

There was a ground disc to control movements from the loop towards the Starting Signal and there was, of course, a semaphore running signal to control movements from the platform line.  The latter would also be used to signal shunting movements as was the case in most places where moving towards a line which was clear (and in some cases towards a line which was occupied but we won't go there, or alternatively the signalman would give a handsignal).

 

However what would happen with all these movements is that they would pass the Section Signal (the Starting Signal).  The diagram does not show with the usual symbol if this signal was released by the token although that was probably the case but the presence of an Outer Home Signal suggests to me that the shunting moves were all signalled as a 2-4 (inside Home Signal) Block Back and the Starting Signal might have been passed at danger for shunting purposes.  Alternatively if the token had been passed through the machine it might well have been withdrawn for shunting purposes and the Section Signal was cleared for each shunting move.  Without sight of the relevant Sectional Appendix entry and the Signalbox Special Instructions - or information from those actually involved - it is not easy to divine which method was used.  The signalling at the next 'box might also play a part and might have meant it was not possible to release a token for some reason hence the possibility of using a Block Back and the presence of the Outer Home Signal.

 

Edit to add PS  - I am of course assuming the SRS diagram is accurate and the thSection Signal really was opposite the Home Signal and not much further out.

[Moses of the Mail]

Question now rather different.  and it is (obviously) an awful long time since I went to Clayton West and it was in any case on its last legs by then.

 

But we know, thanks to Moses of the Mill, how the place was worked and even the small scale diagram on the SRS website helps answer most of the questions so -

 

Train arrives on platform line and the engine runs round.  But although the position of the track circuits aren't clear on the small SRS diagram the signalling suggest the engine would have to set back in rear of the Home Signal in order to get round the train and that any shunting moves would also have to do the same (the joints in the track circuits might have allowed corners to be cut but that was what the signalling provided for).

 

There was a ground disc to control movements from the loop towards the Starting Signal and there was, of course, a semaphore running signal to control movements from the platform line.  The latter would also be used to signal shunting movements as was the case in most places where moving towards a line which was clear (and in some cases towards a line which was occupied but we won't go there, or alternatively the signalman would give a handsignal).

 

However what would happen with all these movements is that they would pass the Section Signal (the Starting Signal).  The diagram does not show with the usual symbol if this signal was released by the token although that was probably the case but the presence of an Outer Home Signal suggests to me that the shunting moves were all signalled as a 2-4 (inside Home Signal) Block Back and the Starting Signal might have been passed at danger for shunting purposes.  Alternatively if the token had been passed through the machine it might well have been withdrawn for shunting purposes and the Section Signal was cleared for each shunting move.  Without sight of the relevant Sectional Appendix entry and the Signalbox Special Instructions - or information from those actually involved - it is not easy to divine which method was used.  The signalling at the next 'box might also play a part and might have meant it was not possible to release a token for some reason hence the possibility of using a Block Back and the presence of the Outer Home Signal.

 

Edit to add PS  - I am of course assuming the SRS diagram is accurate and the Section Signal really was opposite the Home Signal and not much further out.

Thanks for you detailed explanation. It a little difficult to work out operating procedures without further information, but one question remains: would more than one engine in steam be allowed at  the station. The 8.30 passenger arrival is shown in the 1939 timetable as not departing until 09.30 and I have always assumed this was to allow some sort of freight movement to take place.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for you detailed explanation. It a little difficult to work out operating procedures without further information, but one question remains: would more than one engine in steam be allowed at  the station. The 8.30 passenger arrival is shown in the 1939 timetable as not departing until 09.30 and I have always assumed this was to allow some sort of freight movement to take place.

 

The simple answer would be yes - as far as I can recall the line was worked on a token (or possibly tablet?) system at one time which would allow a second train as far as the block working is concerned - and that would make the Outer Home Signal rather useful as well asa  second train could then be accepted with one standing at the platform. Presumably the freight would be stopped at the Home Signal and then the disc would be cleared for it to cross to the loop,  If it was a bit overlength to run round in the loop it would no doubt be shunted to the platform line after departure of the passenger train (when it would definitely have to pass the Section Signal at danger - unless the passenger train had cleared the section).

[PenrithBeacon]

I'm by no means a signalling expert but this signalling scheme does seem to be right for the LMS. LYR perhaps but not LMS.

 

Regards