Whiston and Cogenhoe Quarries

[Simond]

It's entirely plausible that the loco was located at a mine that was subsequently found to be uneconomical, and was closed, and it was a better business to sell it than to pay for it to be moved...

 

There must be a supporting news article in an archive somewhere.

 

Best

Simon

[81A Oldoak]

I've been looking at the images of the Kerr Stuart Victory on the Minerva section and wondering whether I can justify one on my proposed Whiston and Cogenhoe Quarries layout. The Victory does look very nice ...

 

OK, so this is the scenario. With steep gradients to and from the BR exchange sidings, by the mid-1950s the ironstone quarry needed a more powerful locomotive to replace its elderly Hudswell Clarke, which had been relegated to the shorter runs to the quarries. The quarry's other locos, an even older Manning Wardle and a diminutive Fowler diesel were also not suitable for the runs to the exchange sidings. The quarry’s recent acquisition, a second hand Peckett E class, had helped this motive power shortage but something else was needed. The NCB was withdrawing its handful of Kerr Stuart Victory locos and one would be a good stopgap before the quarry could consider acquiring something more suitable.

 

Is this a likely scenario? I am not aware that any ironstone quarry had a Victory although some had sizeable side tank inside cylinder 0-6-0Ts such as the three 16x24 Hudswell Clarkes at Wroxton, including No.1 SIR THOMAS which lasted until 1969, (would make a lovely model :-) ) and HARLAXTON, an attractive 18x24 Andrew Barclay at, obviously, Harlaxton, which also survived until 1969. Also would the NCB sell a withdrawn locomotive to another industrial operator? Final question: if the NCB did sell one of their Victory’s, what colour would it have been or would that depend on which colliery it came from?

 

I know ‘Rule 1’ applies but I do want everything to ‘look right’.

 

Answers on the back of a postcard please …

 

Thanks

 

Stephen

 

(In case you think you've read this on the Minerva section, I moved it here as it seemed more appropriate.)

This is one of the most plausible "what if?" scenarios that I have ever read in a model railway magazine or on-line forum. The answer to the question is therefore obvious.

[Andrew Young]

Think the crux of the matter is that if you want a Victory, you can easily justify having one by writing a story to suit! Maybe the W&C Quarry Co. Ordered one from Kerr Stuart, or their successor Hunslet after 1930 for their operation. There are precedents for Hunslet building examples of both Avonside and KS designs after they took them over. The last steam loco that the old Hunslet company built was after all a KS Brazil design.

 

As for colour, the majority of Ironstone quarry locos were green.

 

Hope that helps,

Andrew

[Warspite]

This is one of the most plausible "what if?" scenarios that I have ever read in a model railway magazine or on-line forum. The answer to the question is therefore obvious.

 

Chris, I think you might be just a tiny bit biased ...

 

Stephen

[Warspite]

Don't think you need to invoke rule 1. (And glad to see that it's not yet another ****ing 'Austerity'.)

 

It is clear from your reasoning that you are knowledgeable on your subject matter, and have a sound grasp on what you are doing.

 

Thanks Simon. The nice thing about ironstone railways was their eclectic motive power and Ixion/Minerva offer a lot on the eclectic front!

 

Stephen

[Warspite]

Think the crux of the matter is that if you want a Victory, you can easily justify having one by writing a story to suit! Maybe the W&C Quarry Co. Ordered one from Kerr Stuart, or their successor Hunslet after 1930 for their operation. There are precedents for Hunslet building examples of both Avonside and KS designs after they took them over. The last steam loco that the old Hunslet company built was after all a KS Brazil design.

 

As for colour, the majority of Ironstone quarry locos were green.

 

Hope that helps,

Andrew

 

Thanks Andrew, that is helpful.

 

I hadn't thought of the Hunslet take over, certainly worth considering.

 

Although many of the ironstone quarry locos were green, my scenario assumed that the quarry owners wouldn't necessarily have repainted the 'Victory' so I wondered what colour it would have been when with the NCB.

 

Stephen

[Warspite]

On 15/08/2016 at 10:57, Simond said:

It's entirely plausible that the loco was located at a mine that was subsequently found to be uneconomical, and was closed, and it was a better business to sell it than to pay for it to be moved...

 

There must be a supporting news article in an archive somewhere.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon

 

Funny you should say that but I've just found the attached article in my scrapbook. What a bit of luck that was!  

 

Stephen

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Warspite
Edited to replace lost images.

[Simond]

how remarkably convenient.  I'm sure it will be very happy in its new home

[Osgood]

I hear there's a big disposal sale of VICTORY Class locomotives coming up at Telford shortly.  May even have a bid myself…...

[81A Oldoak]

Simon

 

Funny you should say that but I've just found the attached article in my scrapbook. What a bit of luck that was!   

 

Stephen

 

NCB Kerr Stuart goes to Whiston Quarries.jpg

Serendipity.

[Barnaby]

The ideas are forming, progress is beginning to be made, soon the site will be surveyed ready for the build to commence.

 

Tagged to watch

 

Very nice so far Stephen and remember a man can eat an elephant with a tea-spoon if given enough time.

 

Best

[Ian Smeeton]

Why would an elephant have  a teaspoon?

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Osgood]

The ideas are forming, progress is beginning to be made, soon the site will be surveyed ready for the build to commence.

 

 

 

 

No no no no no!  Don't want to see the project scuppered through lack of workable ironstone!  

 

http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html?

 

Looks like Stanton had a quick 'look-see' circa 1931.

 

From link page click on 'go to location' top right and type in Cogenhoe.

Then hit 'borehole scans' top leftish to see available data.

 

But first have a look at http://www.bgs.ac.uk/products/onshore/sobi.html  to ensure you understand conditions of use!

Edited August 19, 2016 by Osgood

[Simond]

I suspect the teaspoon would need sharpening.

[Warspite]

The ideas are forming, progress is beginning to be made, soon the site will be surveyed ready for the build to commence.

 

Tagged to watch

 

Very nice so far Stephen and remember a man can eat an elephant with a tea-spoon if given enough time.

 

Best

 

Thanks Barnaby

 

My last layout was built without a great deal of planning and I'm determined this time to get things right at the planning stage. So you're right, progress is slow but measured although it would be nice to actually get some modelling done!

 

Stephen

[Warspite]

No no no no no!  Don't want to see the project scuppered through lack of workable ironstone!  

 

http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html?

 

Looks like Stanton had a quick 'look-see' circa 1931.

 

From link page click on 'go to location' top right and type in Cogenhoe.

Then hit 'borehole scans' top leftish to see available data.

 

But first have a look at http://www.bgs.ac.uk/products/onshore/sobi.html  to ensure you understand conditions of use!

 

Thanks for the links.

 

Part of my research showed a reasonable area of ironstone (Northampton Sand Formation, from the Lower Oolites) in the higher ground between Cogenhoe and Whiston, south of Whiston Road. The fact that there were ironstone quarries in this area (although not in the 1950s/1960s) gives me some assurance.

 

The continued viability of the Whiston & Cogenhoe Ironstone Co. in the early 1960s was dependent on there being workable deposits of ironstone, but that of course is just part of my 'revised' history. However, my outline track plan (as in post 19) does show the quarries west of the yard have been worked out and the track no longer used. In reality, that's because I don't have enough space to extend the layout that way!

 

Stephen  

[Ruston]

If you don't already own a copy, Part 3 of The Ironstone Quarries Of The Midlands, by Eric Tonks will be worth obtaining for this project.

[Warspite]

If you don't already own a copy, Part 3 of The Ironstone Quarries Of The Midlands, by Eric Tonks will be worth obtaining for this project.

 

Thanks Dave.

 

I was fortunate to buy the complete set of nine volumes from Book Law when they were 'on special' a few years ago. They have been absolutely invaluable in my research. In fact, they have provided me with a lot of the motivation to model ironstone railways and I am indebted to the late Eric Tonks for his passion and commitment to these fascinating railways.

 

Stephen

[Ruston]

There's also a very good colour video on ironstone railways if you can get hold of The Ivo Peters Collection Vol.6. I have it on VHS. Perhaps it's still available on DVD?

 

Are you going to have dump cars on the layout? It would be interesting to see if working versions can be made.

[Warspite]

There's also a very good colour video on ironstone railways if you can get hold of The Ivo Peters Collection Vol.6. I have it on VHS. Perhaps it's still available on DVD?

 

Are you going to have dump cars on the layout? It would be interesting to see if working versions can be made.

 

Thanks Dave.

 

The only reference I could find was on the Wolverton Rail website which listed this volume as "VHS only" and sadly "no longer available". It's very frustrating as the list of contents is just what I have been looking for, covering many of the quarries I have been researching. I still have a VHS player but doubt I'll be able to get a copy from anywhere and I couldn't find anything on the usual search engines.

 

I had thought about including dump cars on the layout but no 7mm kit is available and I don't think I have the skills to scratch build one, let alone half a dozen! However, Robert Thompson has said  he will release a 7mm scale version after he has released the 4mm version* so I will keep my options open. (* From the thread on dump cars on the 'UK Standard Gauge Industrial modelling' section.) I am currently planning to include disused crushing plants on my track plan but these could be 'working' plants if Robert releases the 7mm version. Whether they could be 'working' dump cars remains to be seen as that would certainly challenge my skill level!

 

Thanks again.

 

Stephen

[rope runner]

Thanks Dave.

 

The only reference I could find was on the Wolverton Rail website which listed this volume as "VHS only" and sadly "no longer available". It's very frustrating as the list of contents is just what I have been looking for, covering many of the quarries I have been researching. I still have a VHS player but doubt I'll be able to get a copy from anywhere and I couldn't find anything on the usual search engines.

 

I had thought about including dump cars on the layout but no 7mm kit is available and I don't think I have the skills to scratch build one, let alone half a dozen! However, Robert Thompson has said  he will release a 7mm scale version after he has released the 4mm version* so I will keep my options open. (* From the thread on dump cars on the 'UK Standard Gauge Industrial modelling' section.) I am currently planning to include disused crushing plants on my track plan but these could be 'working' plants if Robert releases the 7mm version. Whether they could be 'working' dump cars remains to be seen as that would certainly challenge my skill level!

 

Thanks again.

 

Stephen

 

Hi Stephen, 

 

The Ivo Peters Ironstone footage is included in the below youtube link:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JarmIWI5RWY 

 

Dump cars were fitted with buckeye couplings of course, and a loco needs to be suitably modified to couple to them. There was a variety of fittings to allow this:

 

At Wroxton, a large cast plate held the buckeye, with a three-link held on the upper section of the plate (no coupling hook present). Some of these had the buckeye swinging through 90 degrees  but some were fixed. Photos from this system often show the buffer beams to have been extended downwards in the area directly behind the plate to give strength. At Corby, the buckeyes were fixed in the forward position, below the conventional coupling hook. The locos had larger buffer beam extensions and re-reinforcing from the frames to allow for the additional stresses/strains of a second, lower coupling. On other systems like Scaldwell, the locos buffers were sometimes extended forwards on blocks, allowing the buckeye to remain deployed but not interfere with coupling to conventional wagons. At Cranford, one loco even had a simple wooden block below the hook, with the buckeyes somehow attached to a three-link. The wooden block allowed the buckeyes to snatch and push against the main beam without causing damage. 

 

There are some instances where dump cars were fitted with conventional draw gear, but this appears to be a later development - probably when they were used for carrying material for restoring landslips etc. 

 

Looking forward to seeing this layout develop, I myself am building an ironstone layout, albeit in 4mm. 

 

Paul A.

[Warspite]

Hi Paul

 

Thanks for the link to the Ivo Peters video. It is even better than I expected – absolutely wonderful! There is so much quality footage there and it’s interesting that the ‘special advisor’ was no other than Eric Tonks. It’s a shame the online video doesn’t do it justice. I’ll just have to keep trying to get a copy of the VHS version.

 

The Storefield section was especially good. I realised Storefield’s ‘real’ history (quarries disused, then reopened for the war effort) was very similar to my ‘revised’ history for W&C. It could be what inspired me. Short loaded trains (just 3 and 4 wagons in two of the ones shown) and a Wolseley 1500 as well! And, of course, a cracking Peckett (COCKSPUR) very similar to my Minerva one. Another interesting detail was that I spotted a couple of 21T unfitted coal hoppers at Wroxton, mixed with the regular ironstone hoppers. I also noticed some sequences with 16T unfitted mineral wagons (for example at Pitsford) but I'm not sure whether they were for loco coal rather than iron ore. Finally, there is a wonderful sequence at Cranford with CRANFORD propelling a rake of 27T tipplers in a setting just being asked to be modelled!

 

Thanks also for the fascinating information about the dump cars. Of course, the inclusion of dump cars would give me a legitimate reason to fit buckeye couplers (Kadees) to my locos for hands-free coupling/uncoupling. However, having buckeye couplers on the 27t tipplers would be somewhat incongruous. The tipplers are likely to be shunted in rakes so I would still be able to have 3 links on the ‘inside’ wagons but I still don’t think having Kadees on the ‘outer’ wagons would look right.

 

Looking forward to seeing your 4mm ironstone layout.

 

Thanks again.

 

Stephen

[Osgood]

I believe there are several photos throughout the Tonks volumes showing 16T mineral wagons being loaded with iron ore, so there must have been a shortage of tipplers at one time (will have to look at the build dates for the tipplers).

 

On the subject of Storefield -

 

When I obtain another record deck I'll be able to once again listen to this:  

and have a first listen to this recent acquisition:

 

Tony

[Warspite]

I believe there are several photos throughout the Tonks volumes showing 16T mineral wagons being loaded with iron ore, so there must have been a shortage of tipplers at one time (will have to look at the build dates for the tipplers).

 

On the subject of Storefield -

 

When I obtain another record deck I'll be able to once again listen to this:  

The Storefield Story.jpg

and have a first listen to this recent acquisition:

Storefield in the Rain.jpg

 

Tony

 

Tony

 

Very nice. Good to see vinyl still out there. I must dig out my old Transacord LPs, although sadly nothing industrial.

 

Stephen

[Barnaby]

That's a great video Paul A, thanks for posting it up.