Private Owner Wagons - one year on, Atkins is from Wheeler & Gregory

[Western Star]

Before I set off to research this subject for my modelling interests...  has any other RMWeb-ber done anything similar?

 

What I am intending to search for are identities of private owner wagons that would have been seen running on the GWR New Line (aka GW&GC Jt - Northolt to Ashendon / Aynho junctions) at any time from 1900 to 1940.  Wagons could be destined either for stations on the route or for stations beyond the New Line.

 

Before getting to this point, I have read through the tomes by Thomas / Hudson / Matthews / Turton...  although that does not necessarily mean that I have spotted wagons "en-route" to destinations east / south of the New Line.

 

thank you, Graham

Edited August 3, 2017 by Western Star

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

I have never seen an article or info on here regarding the joint line. I think apart the from local coal merchants there would be the usual mix of Agents and Colliery wagons. I have seen Midlands colliery wagons in pics going down the joint such as Coventry Colliery and the Cannock coalfield collieries. I believe most would have come from the West Midland collieries with a little from the Leicestershire and Derbyshire coalfields via Bordesley or possibly Leamington. There may have been traffic from Welsh coalfield but I suspect this was only more specialised stuff such as Anthracite. I guess this would be routed into Acton and back out again. Richard Scrace was building a train for that line and I think it included AAC wagons, Ricketts, Charringtons, and other large London PO operators.

 

I think the best way is for you to trawl through Turton making notes from the bigger collieries seeing if they had any contracts to supply in your area or where the through trains were bound for. It will take some time! As for through traffic this will be much harder but check out the WTTs first as this will tell you, partially at least, where the mineral traffic was bound for - but I guess you already know that.

 

Cheers Tony

[Western Star]

S W A Newton was a regular visitor to "The New Line" in Edwardian days and his negatives are with Leicestershire County Council...  with the images available on-line.  This link provides a photo taken circa 1906 and shows the new yard which was built to the west of High Wycombe.

 

There are two "owners" in this photo which have, as yet, not been recorded by Ian Pope / Keith Turton in their mega-series on private owner wagons.

 

To the right hand side can be seen two wagons in the livery of George Willcocks & Co., of the London Coal Exchange.  If anyone has a different view in which the lower right hand side of the sheeting can be seen then I shall be pleased to hear from them.  As to the livery of these wagons...  possibly red...  or grey...  with black corner plates...  written in white and shaded black.  There appears to be a metal plate with "empty to" instructions to the lower left hand sheeting, not clear enough to read so any information on this is useful.

 

Roughly centre of the scene is a round-end wagon which appears to be written "C. ?T??NS" and "Coal Merchant" and "High Wycombe".  I have searched Kelly's directories for the period 1890 to 1910...  the 1891 and 1901 census returns...  death registers...  London Gazette...  nothing unless this is a wagon which belongs to C. Atkins who was a "Carter" and a "Pork Butcher" in the Edwardian era.  Any information on this wagon / owner shall be appreciated.

 

thank you, Graham

[Poggy1165]

I can't offer any definitive answer, but I'd be surprised if there weren't any from Manvers Main. It was a huge colliery and its wagons went as far as Penzance.  I'd also be inclined in incorporate quite a few from the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire collieries served by the GC. Sherwood Mansfield for example.

 

IIRC from my reading of Turton, Yorkshire coal traffic to London was more common in the early years than later, when the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire product became more freely available.

[Mark Saunders]

My initial thoughts are the RCH Handbook of Stations and Grace's Guide. This would show who the potential for Recievers and Forwarders were!

 

Then there is also Salt that would be received at local yards for use in food processing.

 

Mark Saunders

[Penlan]

The Berks 7 Bucks Kelly's for 1911 offers the following, though whether any had PO wagons, I can't say.

Kelly's for all Counties can be found on the net, just a question of 'keeping at it'.

And how they will look on your screen I have no idea.   Click on the image to get a better / clearer view.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Penlan

[Penlan]

My initial thoughts are the RCH Handbook of Stations 

This would only show you any private sidings, not traders working out of a Station yard.

[Penlan]

And a couple of adverts from pages 70 & 71...

These probably don't answer your direct Q., but it's another avenue to start from.

 

I will leave you to look at other years etc.,

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Penlan

[Western Star]

The Berks & Bucks Kelly's for 1911... can be found on the net.

Good suggestion, four volumes from 1890-1911 period found here .

[Western Star]

Slightly off topic in that not on the GW&GC Jt. - this question relates to Bicester Town which is L&NWR.

 

Vincent Prentice set up in business as a coal merchant at Bicester Town in 1864, the business passed to his son A E Prentice upon Vincent's death in 1887.  The business has passed down the family to the sixth generation which is going strong today.

 

I have spoken to the current owner and he is clear that there were at least two wagons circa 1940s and he has a photo of one wagon from circa 1910.  Unfortunately the image has a horse and cart standing in front of the interesting parts of the wagon.

 

Anyone any information about the wagons from the Victorian / Edwardian eras?

 

thank you, Graham

Edited March 26, 2020 by Western Star

[Western Star]

On 06/08/2016 at 14:27, Western Star said:

S W A Newton was a regular visitor to "The New Line" in Edwardian days and his negatives are with Leicestershire County Council...  with the images available on-line.  This link provides a photo taken circa 1906 and shows the new yard which was built to the west of High Wycombe.

 

There are "owners" in this photo which have, as yet, not been recorded by Ian Pope / Keith Turton in their mega-series on private owner wagons.

 

 

Roughly centre of the scene is a raised-end wagon which appears to be written "C. ?T??NS" and "Coal Merchant" and "High Wycombe".  I have searched Kelly's directories for the period 1890 to 1910...  the 1891 and 1901 census returns...  death registers...  London Gazette...  nothing unless this is a wagon which belongs to C. Atkins who was a "Carter" and a "Pork Butcher" in the Edwardian era.  Any information on this wagon / owner shall be appreciated.

 

thank you, Graham

Almost a year since I wrote the post above...  and finally we have resolution!  Of a sorts...

 

Ian Pope is working through the GWR Freighter's Registers and has reached the 20th century... so today we were looking at the index for the volume covering the Edwardian period (say 1903 to 1905) and the register offered:-

 

C. Atkins, wagon no.3, bought from Wheeler & Gregory, plus other information relevant to researchers rather than modellers.

 

OK - so now I know that the operator of the wagon in the picture is as thought "C. Atkins"  and that the wagon builder was Wheeler & Gregory.  I know nothing about the builder in regards to either house style or probable livery colours.  Anyone any information of this builder which was based in Radstock?

 

thank you and regards, Graham

Edited March 26, 2020 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

Almost a year since I wrote the post above...  and finally we have resolution!  Of a sorts...

 

Ian Pope is working through the GWR Freighter's Registers and has reached the 20th century... so today we were looking at the index for the volume covering the Edwardian period (say 1903 to 1905) and the register offered:-

 

C. Atkins, wagon no.3, bought from Wheeler & Gregory, plus other information relevant to researchers rather than modellers.

 

OK - so now I know that the operator of the wagon in the picture is as thought "C. Atkins"  and that the wagon builder was Wheeler & Gregory.  I know nothing about the builder in regards to either house style or probable livery colours.  Anyone any information of this builder whic was based in Radstock?

 

thank you and regards, Graham

 

In 4 mm scale, Cambrian do a couple of kits for Wheeler & Gregory 4-plank wagons - C53 and C74. I've gathered you work in 7 mm scale, so that's not so directly useful to you but at least gives an idea of appearance - though the kits use Cambrian's Gloucester-style solebars.

 

I've thought a bit about appropriate PO wagons for my modelling: Midland-around-Birmingham in the first years of the 20th century. Using Keith Montague's Gloucester wagon book, one can build up a picture of a coal traffic flow from the North Warwickshire or Cannock Chase coalfields to coal merchants in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. A starting point is to look for wagons registered with the Midland Railway. Then there are return instructions: for example, E.T. Ward & Son, coal merchants, Stroud: Empty to Stockingford Colliery, nr. Nuneaton - simultaneously justifying a Stockingford wagon heading in the same direction. Or again, Jones & Co., coal merchants, Malvern - two wagons Empty to Birch Coppice Colliery, Polesworth nr. Tamworth - cue Morris & Shaw (Birch Coppice) wagons too. It then becomes likely, or at least possible, that other coal merchants based at Midland stations in the area are getting their coal from the same or nearby collieries. I've come to see that the type of coal is relevant too and get the impression that the North Warwickshire pits were producing coal suitable for domestic use - gas works will have been getting their coal from elsewhere - I've not yet got far enough to understand which coalfields. But hence coal firms such as the at first sight oddly named South Wales & Cannock Chase Coal & Coke Co., Worcester - its title indicating the two coalfields from which it drew its supplies and hence, if one knew enough about coal, what markets it was supplying to.

[Western Star]

On 02/08/2017 at 21:58, Compound2632 said:

In 4 mm scale, Cambrian do a couple of kits for Wheeler & Gregory 4-plank wagons - C53 and C74. I've gathered you work in 7 mm scale, so that's not so directly useful to you but at least gives an idea of appearance - though the kits use Cambrian's Gloucester-style solebars.

 

Good call because the wagon in the photo (link given in earlier post) appears to be a four plank, fixed and raised ends.  Big niggle...  does the wagon in the photo have a through plank (and hence a 3 plank door)?

Edited March 26, 2020 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

Good call because the wagon in the photo (link given in earlier post) appears to be a four plank, fixed and raised ends.  Big niggle...  does the wagon in the photot have a through plank (and hence a 3 plank door)?

 

Tricky to say at the available resolution. But oh look, in the same group of wagons, with its side door down, a Midland Railway D299 5-plank open... 1906, so pre-pooling - they got everywhere!

[wagonman]

Good call because the wagon in the photo (link given in earlier post) appears to be a four plank, fixed and raised ends.  Big niggle...  does the wagon in the photot have a through plank (and hence a 3 plank door)?

 

 

Assuming it's a W&G wagon, they most;y didn't have through top planks, though they came in both inside and outside diagonal strapping versions. This one is clearly the outside version.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

Having had a better view of the Atkins wagon, thanks to Ian Pope, I can confirm it is a Wheeler & Gregory product of c1900-4 – 4 wide planks, external diagonals, full height side door, wood underframe, to carry 10 tons. I can't make out the running number though this may become apparent from other records. 

 

 

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

In 4 mm scale, Cambrian do a couple of kits for Wheeler & Gregory 4-plank wagons - C53 and C74. I've gathered you work in 7 mm scale, so that's not so directly useful to you but at least gives an idea of appearance - though the kits use Cambrian's Gloucester-style solebars.

 

 

The Cambrian kit C53 is indeed a Wheeler & Gregory type, at least above the solebars, but I suspect C74 is probably Bristol Wagon Co. Some of the W&G type had inside diagonals.

[Western Star]

Good call because the wagon in the photo (link given in earlier post) appears to be a four plank, fixed and raised ends.  Big niggle...  does the wagon in the photot have a through plank (and hence a 3 plank door)?

 

The Cambrian kit C53 is indeed a Wheeler & Gregory type, at least above the solebars, but I suspect C74 is probably Bristol Wagon Co. Some of the W&G type had inside diagonals.

 

Thank you Richard for the clarification on the Cambrian models...  if C74 is other than W&G then there is no question about a top through plank.

 

Having had a better view of the Atkins wagon, thanks to Ian Pope, I can confirm it is a Wheeler & Gregory product of c1900-4 – 4 wide planks, external diagonals, full height side door, wood underframe, to carry 10 tons. I can't make out the running number though this may become apparent from other records. 

 

Richard

 

Richard, the record says that Atkins bought one wagon from W&G circa 1903-4 and that the wagon had running number "3".  If you zoom the photo from Ian then you may be able to persuade yourself that the wagon in the photo is written as No.3.

 

So, if W&G, what are the dimensions of the body?  (if such is in the record then Ian is likely to answer same shortly)

Edited August 3, 2017 by Western Star