Cambrian LSWR Diagram 1410 (or 140x) Goods Vans

[autocoach]

I am going to try and relocate discussion of the construction of Cambrian LSWR Diagram 1410 (or 140x) Goods Vans to the area where it really belongs from my comments about SR Brown paint in the Hornby SR Cattle Van Hornby topic (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105437-Hornby-announce-the-sr-cattle-wagon/page-10) and the Small Suppliers Cambrian  LSWR Diagram 1410 topic (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116368-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-van-kit-now-in-production/.)  The kits are now available from Cambrian and good retailers (in my case Kernow Model Model Rail Centre.) 

 

Finding an SR Brown for the van here in California is a major challenge.

 

Replacing the Cambrian LSWR buffers with a more robust version easily adaptable to fixed or sprung buffers. I have suggested to Guy Rixon who is producing 3 D printed 4 mm buffer casings for other SR pre-grouping railways specifically for springing for that he add the LSWR no rib buffers.

 

The roof seems 1-2 mm short to cover the top of the vents when I assembled my first kit. All corners fit where they are supposed to. I used Plastruct micro strip to lengthen.  Will see how this looks when the roof is painted. 

 

I was fortunate to have just enough Gibson 12 mm split spoke wheel sets on hand to handle my 3 kits. Not going to be so easy to replace the stock with the demise of Mainly Trains, my UK parts supplier for about 20 years.  I will probably need additional to build a lot of the ex LSWR Cambrian kits I have in the To Be Built Bin. I definitely will need them to replace the Hornby split spoke wheels when they finally make the SR Maunsell versions of their new SR cattle wagon.

 

More to follow.  Particularly about paint.

[autocoach]

I may be talking just to myself on this topic. 

 

I think I have finally solved the North American acrylic substitute for Southern Railway Goods brown. On a chance browse at a store I don't usually patronize for many reasons, I came upon a container of Vallejo 70.822 German Camouflage Black Brown. Tests thus far show it to have a close hue to the dark brown used by Hornby on the new SR Bulleid Cattle wagons.  When the weather drys out (we have just had a lot of rain in Northern California) and the Home Owners Association fixes the leak in my garage (they are responsible for the roofs) I will be able to set up the airbrush for a full test and possible commitment to spray the first of my Diagram 1410 vans.

 

In the meantime this is the image of my test shot on the swatch next to the van and block above with the Hornby wagon in the background.

 

 

 

 

 

[autocoach]

While rooting around in Vallejo's many colors if found a couple that I ordered just because they were interesting and may be useful for figure painting somewhere down the 4 mm scale road.

 

70.921 Uniforme Ingles  English Uniform. A dark khaki yellow green. Thinking of my de-mobbed 1947 time warp, were the remnants of military uniforms still being worn.  I have a couple of military figures on the platform at Padstow, but none are candidates for this color.  Somehow I have a distant memory of the smell of wet wool that seems to go with this color.

 

70.871 Marron Cuero Osc. Leather Brown to go with the above English Uniform for boots and Sam Brown belts.

 

Padstow should have a Royal Navy presence as RNAS Vulture was only a couple of miles away at St. Marryn. I have a couple of ratings with duffel bags from Monty's. I haven't tried to stripe their collars. Also on the platform are an RAF male and female officer from an old Airfix WW II ground crew set. And last but not least a pair from my 1987 Cheltenham St. Stephen layout: two Scots Guards in full kilt tweaked from an Airfix Napoleonic war Waterloo set minus the flintlock rifles. Plaid paint has yet to be found for their kilts.

[Mikkel]

I may be talking just to myself on this topic. 

 

I think I have finally solved the North American acrylic substitute for Southern Railway Goods brown. On a chance browse at a store I don't usually patronize for many reasons, I came upon a container of Vallejo 70.822 German Camouflage Black Brown. Tests thus far show it to have a close hue to the dark brown used by Hornby on the new SR Bulleid Cattle wagons.  When the weather drys out (we have just had a lot of rain in Northern California) and the Home Owners Association fixes the leak in my garage (they are responsible for the roofs) I will be able to set up the airbrush for a full test and possible commitment to spray the first of my Diagram 1410 vans.

 

In the meantime this is the image of my test shot on the swatch next to the van and block above with the Hornby wagon in the background.

 

German Camouflage Black Brown 1.jpg

 

I for one am following with interest.

 

Funnily enough, 70.822 is exactly the shade I used as basecoat for my LSWR 1410 van. 

[Tony Teague]

You are not talking to yourself!

Keep it up.

Tony

[autocoach]

The Vallejo Model Color 70.822 German Camouflage Black Brown has worked very well. I have painted the body of the 1410 Van by bush with no brush marks. Picture later.

 

I now have a lettering quandary.  My Padstow layout is set in the summer of 1947.   I wish to letter the 1410 vans in the style adopted by the Southern and most British railways in 1935 with small railway initials over the wagon number. I have seen two placements for the diagram 1410 van but have no indication what was correct or what was most common.

 

All information centered on the lower wagon door:

 

   SR

10 Tons

 42319            

 

or on the lower left 2nd and 3rd plank up for the railway initials and wagon number. If in this position the wagon identity would be covered when the door was opened.

 

  SR

42319    

 

With 10 Tons on the lower right 2nd plank up  

 

In both cases the build month and year were centered on the lower left first plank.    

 

Any advice, options and picture references are welcome.  Unfortunately I  do not have access to Volume 1 of Southern Railway Wagons. My Southern Railway Wagons Illustrated does not have this information.                                      

[Guy Rixon]

The Vallejo Model Color 70.822 German Camouflage Black Brown has worked very well. I have painted the body of the 1410 Van by bush with no brush marks. Picture later.

 

I now have a lettering quandary.  My Padstow layout is set in the summer of 1947.   I wish to letter the 1410 vans in the style adopted by the Southern and most British railways in 1935 with small railway initials over the wagon number. I have seen two placements for the diagram 1410 van but have no indication what was correct or what was most common.

 

All information centered on the lower wagon door:

 

   SR

10 Tons

 42319            

 

or on the lower left 2nd and 3rd plank up for the railway initials and wagon number. If in this position the wagon identity would be covered when the door was opened.

 

  SR

42319    

 

With 10 Tons on the lower right 2nd plank up  

 

In both cases the build month and year were centered on the lower left first plank.    

 

Any advice, options and picture references are welcome.  Unfortunately I  do not have access to Volume 1 of Southern Railway Wagons. My Southern Railway Wagons Illustrated does not have this information.                                      

 

 

Looking in the Illustrated History of Southern Wagons, vol 1, I see:

 

43124 (D1410, ex LSWR 6478) with SR/10T/43124 on the door in the smallish (4"?) letters; tare 6-10 in even smaller letters on bottom plank RHS (aligned with the centre of the X framing); photo claimed to be take in 1948.

 

51144 (D1481 meat van (basically D1410 with vents and vacuum brakes) ex LSWR 14598) with MEAT/(illegible)/SR/8T/51144 on the door - note, the extra legend for the special use pushes the number down onto the door frame; tare (illegible in the book) on bottom plank RHS; photographed c.1947 "in wartime brown livery".

 

Those are the only picture of vans with a left-sliding single door in SR post-1936 traffic-livery. Casting the net a little wider, there is

 

42416 (ex LSWR 1429) with large S and R in the quadrants of the framing next to the door and the number on the bottom plank, LHS; photographed in 1939

 

vacuum cleaner van V8 (ex SR 43980, LSWR 12260) with largish (10" letters?) SR on the door and the number on the bottom plank, LHS; green passenger livery, apparently; photographed in 1950.

 

Nothing else relevant, and no vans with the same sliding doors in vol 4.

[autocoach]

Looking in the Illustrated History of Southern Wagons, vol 1, I see:

 

43124 (D1410, ex LSWR 6478) with SR/10T/43124 on the door in the smallish (4"?) letters; tare 6-10 in even smaller letters on bottom plank RHS (aligned with the centre of the X framing); photo claimed to be take in 1948.

 

51144 (D1481 meat van (basically D1410 with vents and vacuum brakes) ex LSWR 14598) with MEAT/(illegible)/SR/8T/51144 on the door - note, the extra legend for the special use pushes the number down onto the door frame; tare (illegible in the book) on bottom plank RHS; photographed c.1947 "in wartime brown livery".

 

Those are the only picture of vans with a left-sliding single door in SR post-1936 traffic-livery. Casting the net a little wider, there is

 

42416 (ex LSWR 1429) with large S and R in the quadrants of the framing next to the door and the number on the bottom plank, LHS; photographed in 1939

 

vacuum cleaner van V8 (ex SR 43980, LSWR 12260) with largish (10" letters?) SR on the door and the number on the bottom plank, LHS; green passenger livery, apparently; photographed in 1950.

 

Nothing else relevant, and no vans with the same sliding doors in vol 4.

Thanks very much Guy. I will use the door centered lettering.

 

I am a little concerned that the Vallejo 70.822 is a little too dark and black.  I have not weathered the van and won't until lettering is complete. Brake gear will be attached after lettering as I do not want to damage it.

 

This is the 1410 van on my layout as it stands. Next to is is the new Hornby SR Bulleid cattle wagon for color comparison. After uploading and looking at the photo, I note a few touch ups in order.

[Tony Teague]

Interesting - but in my view the Hornby SR Bulleid cattle wagon is too light!

I have a number of SR wagons built from kits and painted in Precision Paints SR Brown and all of these are closer in shade to your 1410 van than to the Hornby model.

I don't have a picture to hand but will take one and post it tomorrow.

 

Tony

[autocoach]

Thanks Tony

 

However I just could not leave well enough alone.  I added an overcoat of Vallejo 70.871 Leather Brown to give it more of a chocolate tone. See the attached.

 

I am stopping the paint experimentation here. I will let it dry well and look to see if I have any HMRS small SR lettering left. If not it will be a while until I get around to ordering some from ModelMaster. I have a lot of large SR HMRS Pressfix lettering on hand.

 

The brake gear will be added after the lettering to avoid extra chance to break something during handling.  I also need to change the Kadee couplers to a small head medium length #158. The smaller "scale" head helps in disguising the fact that Southern wagons of this period did not use knuckle couplers. (I know you call them "buckeye" but that grates my US craw. Buckeye was just one manufacturer of knuckle couplers.)

 

The buffers on the far end are a pair of Mainly Trains brass turnings that look like the LSWR buffer. Not sprung of course and no bolt heads. 

 

Somehow the 1410 van rides about 2 mm higher than the Hornby Cattle wagon. Buffer height mismatch shows. Not sure who is correct. The mismatch is the same on both ends of the 1410. The wheels are not 3'6 (14 mm) and the Cambrian frame is a single casting. The ends are all the way down at the stopping blocks Cambrian cast on the inside. Should the Hornby van have 3'6" wheels?

[Tony Teague]

As promised, here are a couple of pictures showing the contrast between Hornby's new Bulleid cattle wagon and othet kit-built stock, all of which is painted using Precision Paints P.91 SR Freight / Wagon Brown. I am confident that against available reference materials this shade is pretty accurate, but you can see how much lighter the Hornby colour is:

 

 

This shows from left to right a Hornby brake, a kit built David Geen cattle wagon to diag.1529, the new Hornby Bulleid cattle wagon, and a kit built Smallbrook Studio ex-LBSCR cattle wagon to diag.1527; the Geen wagon is lightly weathered and I have already toned down the odd orangey coloured floor strip on the new Hornby model.

 

 

In the second picture I have replaced the Geen wagon with two Bachman open wagons and as can be seen, their version of SR brown is pretty close to the Precision Paints version rather than that of Hornby.

 

Hope this helps, but I conclude that your Vallejo colour is also about right.

 

Tony

[autocoach]

I found an old tatty HMRS #13 Southern Goods Wagons transfer sheet that was still usable for the 4" lettering. I also found a unopened #13 sheet so for the time being I have enough small SR's and lettering to complete the first van.  I was able to fit the SR onto the center of the door on the plank just below the X brace crossing.  

 

Then I noticed something that brought me to a halt.  The 10 T and wagon number were on the same plank in most illustrations. But the Cambrian planks were not wide enough.

 

The Cambrian model has 10 planks on each side. The Terry Gough drawings and pictures in A Pictorial Guide to Southern Wagons and Vans  and pictures of current restored vans have only 8 planks on a side. Were two different versions built? Does anyone know the answer offhand?

[chris45lsw]

Thanks Tony

 

However I just could not leave well enough alone.  I added an overcoat of Vallejo 70.871 Leather Brown to give it more of a chocolate tone. See the attached.Leather Brown over German Camouflage Black Brown 5.jpg

 

I am stopping the paint experimentation here. I will let it dry well and look to see if I have any HMRS small SR lettering left. If not it will be a while until I get around to ordering some from ModelMaster. I have a lot of large SR HMRS Pressfix lettering on hand.

 

The brake gear will be added after the lettering to avoid extra chance to break something during handling.  I also need to change the Kadee couplers to a small head medium length #158. The smaller "scale" head helps in disguising the fact that Southern wagons of this period did not use knuckle couplers. (I know you call them "buckeye" but that grates my US craw. Buckeye was just one manufacturer of knuckle couplers.)

 

The buffers on the far end are a pair of Mainly Trains brass turnings that look like the LSWR buffer. Not sprung of course and no bolt heads. 

 

Somehow the 1410 van rides about 2 mm higher than the Hornby Cattle wagon. Buffer height mismatch shows. Not sure who is correct. The mismatch is the same on both ends of the 1410. The wheels are not 3'6 (14 mm) and the Cambrian frame is a single casting. The ends are all the way down at the stopping blocks Cambrian cast on the inside. Should the Hornby van have 3'6" wheels?

The diagram 1410 should have 3ft (=12mm) wheels and fitting these would, at least, drop the ride height by 1mm. 

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[autocoach]

The diagram 1410 should have 3ft (=12mm) wheels and fitting these would, at least, drop the ride height by 1mm. 

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

I am using Gibson 12 mm 00 finescale (for 16.5 mm gauge track)  wheels in both wagons. I had replaced the 12 mm Hornby wheels in the cattle wagons due to their oversize flanges with 3 hole 12 mm Gibson's and used the 12 mm Gibson split spoke wheels I fortunately had on hand for the LSWR van.

 

I replace many of my UK equipment wheels as I sometimes run my UK equipment on a US NMRA standards track layout and  prefer the smaller flanges and concave filet between the surface of the wheel tire and the flange for optimum tracking particularly on Code 55 and Code 70 rail. Recent Hornby products have had smaller flanges but lack the filet and the rounding of the top of the flange in US model practice. I find the Gibson's very close to the NMRA RP 25 specification.

[autocoach]

I have done some  more digging on the prototype Cambrian used for their model. The number of planks had bothered me as I had seen as few as 8 and the model has 10 planks. 

 

Anyway the prototype appears to be LSWR Van 8112 preserved at the Bluebell Railway. See http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/wagon/8112.html. This van appears to have the 10 (or is it 11) plank sides.

 

To quote the Blue Belle  description: 8112 is one of a batch of 110 covered goods vans built at Eastleigh Carriage Works in 1912. These were similar to previous designs with wooden bodies on steel underframes, of some 6 Tons tare weight, 10 tons capacity and with hand brake only (see 2773), but this batch had roofs some 7 inches higher. 8112 was allocated Diagram No. 1406 and was renumbered 43241 by the SR in 1923

 

Anyway this gives me a reasonable ID number. Interesting it is Diagram 1406 not 1410.  Mystery solved. I found an earlier scratch building attempt at a 1410. After studying the Cambrian version and sources uncovered in this investigation I may try scratchbuilding the body for one myself on the Cambrian underframe at some future point.

[Nile]

Somehow the 1410 van rides about 2 mm higher than the Hornby Cattle wagon. Buffer height mismatch shows. Not sure who is correct. The mismatch is the same on both ends of the 1410. The wheels are not 3'6 (14 mm) and the Cambrian frame is a single casting. The ends are all the way down at the stopping blocks Cambrian cast on the inside. Should the Hornby van have 3'6" wheels?

 

It looks like the ends are mounted too high. The bottom of the buffer beam should be level with the bottom of the solebar. This puts the buffers at the correct height.

[autocoach]

It looks like the ends are mounted too high. The bottom of the buffer beam should be level with the bottom of the solebar. This puts the buffers at the correct height.

Some how they rode up (with wear?) on one end during final assembly and I didn't notice. Not likely to get them unstuck in one piece so will have to be written off as possible wartime damage from US Army Transportation Corp shunting. 

 

Oh well, I have two more of the Cambrian 1410/1406 kit to build. 

[autocoach]

I have had a reply from Barry at Cambrian concerning the prototype for this van and included it in the Small Suppliers thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116368-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-van-kit-now-in-production/.

 

I will have to scratch build a wide plank one as that is the style I prefer.

[Nile]

The David Geen kit has the wider planks and wooden underframe, is that any good to you?

[autocoach]

The David Geen kit has the wider planks and wooden underframe, is that any good to you?

 Thanks, A great suggestion. Unfortunately David Geen kits appear to be available only at ExpoEM and other UK shows.  As I understand he does not accept credit cards and has no real facility for international commerce it is unlikely I will be able to trade with him in the near future. Not sure about the Scaleforum connection.

 

And then there is the material used for his kits: metal castings. I took my lesson from the 1968 film "The Graduate" and now deal primarily in plastics (I'm older now than any available Mrs. Robinson.) The large selection of Evergreen and Plastruct shapes plus Archer rivets will work. I have steel LSWR under frames from unbuilt Cambrian kits to make the process easier. I am trying Guy Rixon's new 3 D Shapeways printed buffer stock. The only metal components will be the steel weights (lead is no longer acceptable in California) Alan Gibson axles and tires on the wheels, Alan Gibson buffer heads and small profile Kadee couplers. Oh and some Detail Associates wire for the handrail. Not fitted so there won't be any underframe piping. 

 

Ah, now to don my mask and snorkel and float silently in the pool to the sounds of silence.  Well not today as it is only 4 degrees C outside with a cold rain and the Home Owners Association has closed the pool.

[wagonman]

Wow! It's actually warmer in Norfolk than in California.

 

As for buffer height, the norma standard is 3' 6" from rail top to buffer centre line. With luck and care it is usually possible to de-construct plastic kits without too much damage being done...