What colour for early BR freight grey?

[KalKat]

Just as per the title really........

 

I have recently got some Railmatch freight grey, however it seems somewhat dark to me. I remember the grey as being very pale on 16t minerals - and the ones in Ashford (Middx) coal yard seemed almost to glow in the twighlight (although that was a long time ago)

 

Any ideas or suggestions please?

 

 

 

 

Emma

[coachmann]

I recently mixed a batch of cellulose paint to match one of my friends 0 gauge coal wagons. He told me it was sprayed with Precision Paints some 20 years ago. PPC has always been good enough for me, as we older guys were familiar with many of the railway colours when PPC first came out in the early 1960's. Some folk use Halford's grey primer I believe. Having tried it on card, it appears to be straight grey and so lacks the greenish tinge of BR wagon grey. But of course there is a lot more latitude with wagon colours than there is on loco and coaching stock, and weathering has a very big effect too.

Edited January 19, 2017 by coachmann

[davefrk]

Over the years Bachmann grey minerals varied quite a bit, some darker than others but to my mind all were a bit dark so I started painting mine with well stirred Railmatch paint but, to lighten the paint I added a gloss cream #41 from Humbrol , it worked very well and the resulting satin finish took the Modelmaster transfers well. Mixing the paint in batches for around 8 to 10 wagons means there can be a slight variation in the shade just like the real thing. A few Bachmann wagons, with the lighter factory finish have been left for variety. On videos one can see a few darker wagons mixed with many lighter ones.

The down side now is thinking about the weathering, around 70 Bachmann and kit wagons to do for two trains though in my period, 1950s, wagons were less decrepit..... 

 

 

Looking at the photo the colour still looks a bit dark on some but is lighter in the flesh.

 

[KalKat]

Thank you for your answer Coachman. Maybe what I recall is bleached out colour - I was born in 1960 and I'm going from old memories. However photos do seem to show they were very pale. I agree on the cast to the colour although I thought it rather blue?

 

 ...And thanks too Mr. Franks

 

Emma

 

 

 

 

Edit to thank davefrks

Edited January 19, 2017 by KalKat

[coachmann]

I wonder if the younger guys are thinking of the grey that BR adopted when new colours came in for Railfreight. That grey was definitely lighter than hitherto used from 1949.

 

Thank you for your answer Coachman. Maybe what I recall is bleached out colour - I was born in 1960 and I'm going from old memories. However photos do seem to show they were very pale. I agree on the cast to the colour although I thought it rather blue?

You may well be right about the blue colour cast. I didn't get my grey quite right and was going to add a touch of green. I'll find out whether the cast was green or blue when I get back to spraying my wagons.

[chaz]

"Freight grey" was used from (about?) 1968 and was darker than the original grey used on non-fitted stock. It was contemporary with the white outline data and number boxes, and because the grey was darker the white lettering no longer needed black patches. The fitted stock was changed to "freight brown", a pinker and darker shade than the 1948 orangey bauxite colour.

 

HTH

 

Chaz

Edited January 19, 2017 by chaz

[Porcy Mane]

Although there was the official BS numbers for BR colours but in reality how often was paint mixed to match these colours? I would contest that a rake of unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons all painted the same shade of grey would be far less prototypical than a rake painted in a multitude of grey shades.

 

Apologies for linking to photos that I have used elsewhere but I think they illustrate my point.

 

R1195 - March by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

R0372 - Wakefield Kirkgate by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/bbcfUc

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94955-hornbys-new-21-ton-hopper/page-4&do=findComment&comment=1785976

 

https://flic.kr/p/txeokg

 

Hth

 

P

[coachmann]

The above photo with the Austerity is useful for weathering but is useless for mixing a colour for painting wagons. This is normal with colour photos. Paint a wagon like this and you will see what I mean. The safest paint samples at this distance in time is paint by Phoenix/Precision Paints ~ assuming the company is still having it's paint mixed to the original formula or pattern. The only company that comes to mind that pre-dates PPC is Cherries Paints, but I do not know if they did early BR wagon grey. When Howes railway colours were being developed in the 1980's, I was asked to assist.

 

I prefer to keep to PPC seeing as they were the originals produced in the 1960's at a time when many railway colours were still extant and so my choice is not a criticism of Howes colour range.  What I do criticize in both ranges is the desire to offer colours with different names that are almost duplication's and are too close to offer any meaningful use in the model scales. Two example are the numerous greens covering GWR/BR (GWR early, GWR 1928, GWR 1947, BR 1952 and BR later), and also SR/BR coaching stock two Malachites, Loco-hauled stock, EMU stock, DMU stock, and so-forth.

 

We pretty well know what colours three of the Big Four used, but the unknown remains the Southern Railway becasue they used so many differing greens up until Bullied chipped in with Malachite. Even then there were two shades! When David Jenkinson worked at the NRM, he got Williamson's to make up some dry samples of certain railway colours for me. This company had supplied the railway companies of Great Britain with transport paint for years. However, I drew a blank when I asked for a sample of SR Olive green, generally known as Maunsell green. They replied that they did not have a formula but suggested I mix black & yellow. This I did and got something very akin to LSWR Urie green, however when I added a spot of blue (a primary colour) it resembled Maunsell green.  From then on I started to mix many of my colours instead of relying on a firm called  J T Keeps where Alan Brackenborough and I had always had our colours mixed in cellulose. The only colour I could not mix was MR/LMS crimson lake. My last batch of lake was done for me by ICI in the 1990's.

Edited January 20, 2017 by coachmann

[Killybegs]

By coincidence, I have this morning airbrushed 25 16T mineral wagons with Precision Paint. As Coachman says, it gives them a slight green tint.

[KalKat]

Well, I would like first of all to thank those who have offered suggestions.

 

I now have four different makes of grey: Phoenix Precision, Railmatch Acrylic, Railmatch Enamel and Humbrol (Matt 62) . None of these seems to ring a bell colourwise for me, the Humbrol is just wrong and the others all seeming to be virtually identical (that ought to tell me something - Iknow) in my view being too dark. 

 

  I don't believe my eyesight is to blame here as I used to work in an automotive body shop and still paint classics (costly hobby). and colour matching is rather needed for this.

 

 Now, my memory may be at fault but looking at photo plates 114, 116 and 119 in 'Southern Wagons in Colour' by Mike King, the grey seems tonally much lighter. This is basing the grey against the black and white in these pictures. I am also going to check the grey value of the Moggie (Minor) in one of the pictures as a reference.

 

 

 I'm sorry if this all seems pigheaded of me, but I would love to find a colour that strikes that elusive chord for me

 

 

With thanks - Emma

[Porcy Mane]

 I am also going to check the grey value of the Moggie (Minor) in one of the pictures as a reference.

 Which BMC grey do you think the Minor is? I still have my BMC colour references.

 

Sadly I gave away my colour chip charts years ago. PPG, Sikkens, BMC, ICI, International, Dockers, Dufay & Dupli Colour  (rare as hens teeth) all went. Regrettably, now seeing the second hand price complete chip books command.

 

Don't suppose this is any help.

 

 

P

[Mad McCann]

It's worth noting that the lighter grey you perhaps remember best, given your age would be the revised 1964 version. By about 1971 you'd likely struggle to see any 16ts in the earlier shade, any survivors likely well faded and hiding under strata of rust and dirt. The 1949 shade does seem to vary a bit. Revell grey No 76 has been quoted in some circles but I think that's more akin to the '64 shade. It's rumoured that originally the grey in the 1940s was from surplus Admiralty stocks but I've never found confirmation of this. Certainly plausible at that period though. Prompted by this discussion, I've just gone out and experimented with Revell76, Tamika XF12 (JN grey) and Tamiya XF25 (Light Sea Grey).

On the lower wagon these three colours run left to right respectively; the upper wagon is finished entirely in XF25 and the Bachmann SR brake in their version of early freight grey offered as further comparison.

As an aside, I have also heard it mentioned that Post '64 freight grey is also coach livery 'Rail grey' also. Can anyone confirm this, please?

 

Dave.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Mad McCann

[KalKat]

Wow - assistance above and beyond! Many many thanks to both Porcy ( Percy perchance?) and to you 'Mad'

 

Porcy - I'm not 100% on the Moggies colour, there weren't any paint codes prior to '64. I have a friend coming over the weekend who has more info, so I'll quiz him

 

'Mad' certainly food for thought there - I didn't expect anyone to go paint summat on a question!

 

 

 

Abashed and awed - Emma

[coachmann]

I wonder why RMweb members have avoided Precision Paints P126 B.R. Freight Wagon Grey (1948 – 1964).

[KalKat]

I do have a tinlet I acquired after your suggestion Coachman. My primary splodge seemed to be much the same as all the others I have (as in post 10) . Maybe I'll have to paint a wagon side instead of a test patch?

 

 

Emma

[Porcy Mane]

I wonder why RMweb members have avoided Precision Paints P126 B.R. Freight Wagon Grey (1948 – 1964).

 

Interesting. Is there any evidence to suggest that?  

 

P

[hmrspaul]

Oh for goodness sake. They varied! The BR specification used ranges of weights to throw into the mix including a blue. The BS standard they quote in 1959 is darker than I believe was normal. But then there is an advert for March Steam World in the back of the February issue and it shows a 1960 photo of a train which includes what I am happy to say is a completely repainted steel mineral (there is a line where a plate has been let into the side, which was often done but usually only that was painted) It is battleship dark grey, and glossy.

 

Games Workshop Ghostly grey went years ago... I like Vallejo Model Color acrylic 70.907 Pale grey blue. Azul Gris Claro

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

I wonder why RMweb members have avoided Precision Paints P126 B.R. Freight Wagon Grey (1948 – 1964).

Too dark, the paint that the proprietor pointed out to me was matched with official BR colour panels, and that Chas Roberts had got it wrong when hundreds, or thousands of steel wagons they built were painted too light! Eh Gods.... Completely missing the point we want to reproduce reality not what should have been!

 

Paul

Edited March 1, 2017 by hmrspaul

[coachmann]

I swore to avoid any thread on railway paints, but i never learn! 

Edited March 1, 2017 by coachmann

[Porcy Mane]

Too dark, the paint that the proprietor pointed out to me was matched with official BR colour panels

 

Glad you said it Paul.

With the same colour varying in shade with the change in colour temperature throughout the day there's quite a difference to be be observed between a colour photographed in sunlight, shadow and shade.

Attached is Airfix side painted with various Humbrol greys. I have a similar side that includes early and late PP greys but can't find it at the moment. My view is using the prototype photographs that I posted above is: does it really matter matter what shade of grey you paint your wagons. As long as you are in the right ball park to satisfy yourself.

 

 

For the record, the early B.T.C. painting Spec. 32A which was for Covered Vehicles & Vans held at the NRM reads.

13 Canvass Roof Paint.

14 Finishing Paint.

16 Freight stock Red for lower walls up to 3' 6" & external body on fitted & piped vehicles. BS 381C 446 Red Oxide.

20 Stone Colour for Brakevan Interiors above 3' 6"    B.S. 381C 361 Light Stone

30 Freight stock Grey for unfitted vehicles                  B.S. 381C 693 Aircraft Grey.

75 Pale cream emulsion for interior wood surfaces of containers and vans.

 

B.S. 2660 4-056 of 1955. Current equivalent B.S 4800 10 C 31.

 

B.S. 381C 693 Aircraft Grey for Srgb display on computer screens is Hex: #7F8582.

And a square filled with  #7F8582

 

 

P

Edited March 1, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[LBRJ]

Colour will change with, among other things, like lighting, scale distance, so using "real paint" probably wont look right anyway.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I have just been in the garage and checked my stocks of grey paint, some dating from the 1970s, and find I have been using 7 different shades of grey, (not quite 40!), from various manufacturers, most of which aren't railway colours at all, and to compound the felony, I have recently bought 2 more variants from our local Chino Mercado which are subtly different.

Weathering changes everything anyway.

As Paul says wagon painting varied.

 

Mike.

[KalKat]

OK, before any arguments break out (sorry if I upset you hmrspaul) , I was only attempting to find what I believed to be the right colour. I know that this is wagon terms an oxymoron as the paint was mixed on site and often by people who simply wanted to get the job done as quickly as possible.

 

I was trying to go by what I can remember from those far off days when I used to wave at the engine drivers and gaurds shunting the coals in the yard at Ashford. Whilst the smell will never fade from memory, the colour was at the same time mostly ingrained. When we moved from Ashford to Ealing - there were no more crashings and bashings to entertain me, and that I missed. Later at grammar school the route I used to get there had a bridge over a railway line! On occasion there were trains of manky 16 tonners. these were very much a different breed from those I remember back in the day.

 

I say this so as to point out I do know the difference and all I had originally found with the so called right colour that I had obtained - wasn't.

 

Once again, I thank all of you who have offered advice and help.

 

 

Emma

[Happy Hippo]

Worrying about the right colour paint is also compounded by the individual being able to perceive that colour.

 

We can all see standard colours, but there are probably slight variations as the human brain, the eye and the interface between them are unique,

 

This probably accounts for the change from Olive Green to Malachite on the Southern Railway.  Maunsell and Bullied had both looked at a colour card  in the works and pointed out what they thought  at the time was a fetching lime green.

 

A bit extreme but you see my point.

 

Then of course we should not forget those whose colour acuity is less than perfect, who must have terrible trouble trying to get the right shade of grey on a wagon, and it turns out they've painted it Red!

Edited March 1, 2017 by Happy Hippo

[Mad McCann]

Agree with pretty much all of that. I never stress too much about colours unless they vary wildly from a generic spread. Colour is utterly subjective and as mentioned above is affected by changing light and individual perception for starters.

On top of that you have the varied effects of the elements, pollution and rough handling.

Remember also that colour pales over distance so a model at normal viewing distance is the equivalent of perhaps 100m away from a full size item.

Also, as has been well covered on many previous occasions, paint mixing at wagon works for example could be very ad-hoc and inconsistent, particularly before the 1930s.

 

When all's said and done, it's probably down to what the modeller themselves feels comfortable with.

 

Dave.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mad McCann