Remaining Sections of Bullhead Railway

[D854_Tiger]

Still plenty about and in day to day passenger use.

 

What would be the latest date any such rails could have been laid.

 

In other words, when roughly did the railway start making the switch from laying bull head rail to flat bottom rail.

 

Then is it reasonable to assume any remaining stretches of bull head rail were laid on a date that must predate the introduction of flat bottom rail.

 

I'm obviously talking about Network Rail here not the Tube and Underground railway.

[asmay2002]

Then is it reasonable to assume any remaining stretches of bull head rail were laid on a date that must predate the introduction of flat bottom rail.

Flat bottom rail was around in the 19th century, for example the M&GN had it until it was replaced by bullhead around 1900. The LMS started using FB again after WW2 but there was a long period when both were being laid new at the same time so the general answer is no.

Edited September 9, 2017 by asmay2002

[russ p]

I was on a ballast job a few weeks ago on the east Suffolk line flat bottomed concrete was been replaced with new flat bottomed steels while there is still plenty of bullhead on the line.

What is now a real rarity is bullhead on concrete sometimes called austerity track.

There was some near Ancaster in Lincolnshire

[The Stationmaster]

Still plenty about and in day to day passenger use.

 

Agree

 

What would be the latest date any such rails could have been laid.

 

In the past year or so I believe - in particular circumstances. Probably not used for new main running lines track since the 1970s, definitely still being laid for new work (but secondhand rail) in yards in the 1970s.

 

In other words, when roughly did the railway start making the switch from laying bull head rail to flat bottom rail.

 

Considerable variation between Companies/BR Regions - probably really got underway where new material was used in the 1950s but definitely around before that.

 

Then is it reasonable to assume any remaining stretches of bull head rail were laid on a date that must predate the introduction of flat bottom rail.

 

No - see above

 

I'm obviously talking about Network Rail here not the Tube and Underground railway.

[brack]

there was a long period when both were being laid new at the same time so the general answer is no.

Presumably there'd be stockpiles of unused rails at various places even after supply/policy changed - no point not using perfectly decent stuff.

[Echo]

I always thought there were places where bullhead was preferred to FB, even after FB became the standard. Bullhead rail had the advantage that it could be replaced very quickly with minimal equipment. In very busy locations, for example. Also in places with restricted access like tunnels. Seem to remember something about SR 3rd rail lines switching late for technical reeasons.

[big jim]

I was on a ballast job a few weeks ago on the east Suffolk line flat bottomed concrete was been replaced with new flat bottomed steels while there is still plenty of bullhead on the line.

What is now a real rarity is bullhead on concrete sometimes called austerity track.

There was some near Ancaster in Lincolnshire

Funnily enough my route conductor on the east Suffolk the other week was also on the tamper a few weeks previous where they had done the replacement, it's a lovely quiet smooth ride on the new bit (as you would hope!) then a few miles later your wallowing round on the clickerly click track, some seriously rough bits down there from what I remember of the few times I've driven it, can't remember the exact location but I think it's between halesworth and Brampton

 

The line between wichnor and Lichfield high level is panel track, I think it may be bullhead, showing my ignorance but can you get flat bottom panel track?

[russ p]

This was near Bealings, the bit they relaid was actually smooth, the bit near Woodbridge used to be horrendous on 20s

By panel track do you mean jointed ? If you do there is loads on the branches round here

[Trog]

The line between wichnor and Lichfield high level is panel track, I think it may be bullhead, showing my ignorance but can you get flat bottom panel track?

 

All sorts of things are possible jointed track in both flat bottom and bullhead on concrete, hardwood and softwood sleepers. Although most jointed of both types would probably be found on softwood.

CWR also comes in both the flat bottom and bullhead flavours, but wooden sleeper bullhead CWR is rare as it is not a very good idea from the buckling prevention point of view.

 

Jointed track on steel sleepers is however a very bad idea, and you should never see it.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Trog

[big jim]

This was near Bealings, the bit they relaid was actually smooth, the bit near Woodbridge used to be horrendous on 20s

By panel track do you mean jointed ? If you do there is loads on the branches round here

Yes, I meant jointed track, trogs post explains it nicely to me

 

Off the top of my head Bealings is the first crossing after Westerfiled iirc, the one with a bigish station house/goods shed? Of all the out of area (being conducted) jobs i do I enjoy doing the East Suffolk the most, wouldn't fancy it every day on a 153 but as a now and again job it's great, Woodbridge fascinates me as you think your on the coast with all the boat yards next to the line until you look at a map and realise your a long way inland on a river!

Edited September 9, 2017 by big jim

[russ p]

That's then place Jim, the east Suffolk is a bit sad to me a real faded glory line.

Woodbridge and beccles were very busy places at one time and the whole line was originally the mainline to Yarmouth

I don't mind it though provided I'm not on a ballast train as they are 20mph throughout, its a long way to Lowestoft then!

[big jim]

Similarly a UTU at 30mph is a bit soul destroying!

 

(Sorry to go off topic)

[Edwin_m]

Isn't most of Birmingham New Street still laid in BH, because the complex switches and crossings wouldn't fit if replaced by FB? 

[Ben Alder]

Thurso branch was relaid with bullhead  rail this year- imported from Austria, IIR, and sent by sea to Scrabster, Thurso's port.

[Southernman46]

Up until 2002 there was still a 5 chain length of bullhead track in the DMF at Vauxhall carrying some 20 million tonnes per annum which lasted .

until the adjacent S&C was renewed.

 

Some the low numbered platforms at Waterloo 1 - 4 still are bullhead unless they've been renewed relatively recently.

 

ISTR from my ATME days, that the down electric siding at Basingstoke - used by electric stock every 1/2 half to turnback the Waterloo - Basing semi-fasts is still some of that new fangled-GWR concrete sleepered bullhead ...................

Edited September 10, 2017 by Southernman46

[Reorte]

Thurso branch was relaid with bullhead  rail this year- imported from Austria, IIR, and sent by sea to Scrabster, Thurso's port.

Why would it be relaid with bullhead? That's not quite the same as using a bit in sidings! Maybe it's something Scottish, I took a few photos a few years ago of what looked like pretty new bullhead points at Glenfinnan (handy when I was planning on building my own).

[Guest eddie reffin]

The Thurso branch was laid like for like due to the cost. All the original sleepers have been retained (except for a few that were damaged). Relaying with FB means much higher costs. For the likes of Thurso, it doesn't justify the expense with only 158s running over it 8 return trips a day.

 

The Kyle line has large bits where they are also replacing BH on a like for like basis. Was over it on Saturday and the difference is great, much smoother and the joints are properly packed too.

[Trog]

The Thurso branch was laid like for like due to the cost. All the original sleepers have been retained (except for a few that were damaged). Relaying with FB means much higher costs. For the likes of Thurso, it doesn't justify the expense with only 158s running over it 8 return trips a day.

 

The Kyle line has large bits where they are also replacing BH on a like for like basis. Was over it on Saturday and the difference is great, much smoother and the joints are properly packed too.

 

So are we talking re-railing not relaying?

[coachmann]

Parts of the Conwy Valley branch at Roman Bridge were relaid with brand new bullhead rail made in Workington I think. Bullhead is still to be found on the Llandudno Branch.

[Southernman46]

If the original sleepers and chairs are OK - then large scale re-railing with BH is essentially a maintenance exercise and would be appropriate especially as the Thurso line would fall into the criteria in terms of linespeed, tonnage and track category that would permit BH to be used but also likely to be subject to Route Track Engineer approval first .....................

 

EDIT - overlapped with another post above ..................

Edited September 11, 2017 by Southernman46

[Guest eddie reffin]

So are we talking re-railing not relaying?

Yes, it's basically just rerailing but a number of sleepers and chairs have been done as well where they have become life expired.

[uax6]

Bullhead is still bought new by NR, as I believe it is still the standard rail for Scotland (most of the far north lines being BH). Not much is bought each year, but it is still being made new....

 

Andy G

[DavidBird]

Some short lengths near Mallaig were relaid (not just re-railed) recently with FB, but a while before that all the S&C in Mallaig, (presumably Arisaig and Glenfinnan as well, from Reorte's post above) were replaced in BH - both completed without a single bustitution!

 

There are still several lengths of (possibly new) BH on the loading bank at Mallaig.  When the new rails were delivered, the lorries were from a haulier based in Workington, I was surprised at this, as the steelworks at Workington was gone a long time ago.  But they actually loaded at (I think) Scunthorpe, don't know if the railes were imported or not. Maybe a throwback from when rails were rolled at Workington.

 

Plenty of jointed BH on concrete sleepers on the Strathspey Railway, with lots more to go in when/if they get the extension to Grantown.  This was recovered from the Stirling - Alloa line before it was relaid for re-opening, also some panels and S&C were recovered from Longannet Power Station after it closed.

[russ p]

Why on earth were rails delivered by rail?

I suppose network rail have forgotten what the railway was invented for!

[Fat Controller]

Why on earth were rails delivered by rail?

I suppose network rail have forgotten what the railway was invented for!

I doubt they've forgotten, more that, with the demise of the wagon-load network, they would have to organise a special working at least from Mossend, and possibly a lot further south, to get a single wagon of rail to Mallaig. Given that the road haulier can probably get a back-load of timber, they'll be able to offer a much better price. Madness, I know, but the difference in the costs will ultimately reflect itself in the viability of the line.