Spa Road

[Lacathedrale]

As per my other threads, before I embark on what might be 'the big one' in the shed (~8'6" square L-shape) I've another space in my house with which to house a layout. No doubt the very first will be a little 6" x 3' plank to test stock, use as a programming track ,etc. - but beyond that I have an intermediate spot where an achievable layout can be constructed. It's the biggest available site that doesn't otherwise encroach upon the house, at the proper height and with easy installation of proscenium arch/lighting - but it's basically a full layout at this point isn't it!  This is a thought exercise to see what I can come up with in a much smaller space than previously catered (ha!) for. It will be located above cupboards, at eye level, has a maximum dimension of around 6' x 1'4" and has nothing above it, but will expect a maximum 1' vertical clearance including the proscenium arch/lighting - which must blend in with the furniture. I've never exhibited - but now owning an estate car and being a stone's throw away from the Croydon Model Railway Society it seems ridicolous not to give it a shot at least once, after literally decades reading about them on and off.

 

In order of priority this layout is:

 

- Must be plausible, with serpentine tracks and few parallel lines, framed in a proscenium arch.

- Built to FS standards in 2mmFS (diesels) or 14.2-Fine (steam) utilising DCC-Sound where feasible

- Supporting at least two concurrent operations, in order that I can take advantage of automation: occupancy detection and train routing

- Extendable via a bolt-on self contained 90' degree bend to form one leg of an L-shaped layout in my shed (it needn't be contiguous in scope, one layout can act as the fiddle yard for another).

- 18" as my minimum plausible train length (i.e. 3 BR Mk1 and a diesel, a 4 coach EMU) and 18" as minimum non-visible radius.

 

My broad plan is to create a high level Holborn Viaduct-style terminus station, somewhere in the SE quadrant of the city. For now I've named this 'Spa Road', after the terminus of the London & Greenwich Railway, which was halfway down the viaduct from New Cross to London Bridge, and the world's first passenger railway! In reality this was quickly superceded but the name sounds nice.

 

This station will serve both diesel hauled and multiple units (preferably a decent amount of the former). A plan such as Minories (for the sake of something relatively compact and simple - I'm hand laying track so any modifications would be greatly appreciated). seems to make the most sense, maybe with a runaround loop in the platforms. If I was feeling frisky, I could terminate the platform roads hidden under the remnants of an overall roof (and thus open the way for extension in that direction).

 

Hackneyed as it may be, I think a low level goods shunting yard close to the front may work out - set in the late 70's or  early 80's would there have possibly been domestic coal deliveries? Maybe some minor perishables or the last vestiges of wagonload freight. I really haven't got a clue how this would work, but it would allow me to set either the top or bottom of the layout to 'automatic' and play with the other half - which could be a winner. Deptford station had (has!) a really weird approach road to track level that I believe wagons were pulled up by horse. I could use this at the front of the layout to 'hide' the dissapearance of the low level goods line (since now the terminus is passenger/parcels only, and goods are 'down below'. Maybe a removable buffer stop/wall to allow that line to continue too into some prospective northbound extension for through traffic.

 

I think the two of these combined would keep me building (and operating both manually and automatically) for a fair while - but what I think might work really well, is to incorporate a high level freight depot such as the Southwark Continental Freight depot as a second half of the layout (beyond that 90 degree curve) at a later date. While the details are a bit fuzzy, the idea of both high and low level tracks having somewhere further to go is pretty sweet!

 

The low level goods lines simply wrap around to the front into a fiddle yard, whereas the high level splits into the Freight depot and loco stabling point above. The real Southark depot was a continental freight depot built between the LBSCR and SECR junction at Blackfriars. I would model it the end of  it's use in the BR Blue era where the turntable has been removed and filled - modelling the holding sidings and parcel platform.  The curve of the rising LCDR lines to Blackfriars (with actually do rise behind and curve around the rear of the depot itself.) form the backscene and terminating point of the layout (and also, those ever present lines to the end of the baseboard for the NEXT expansion).

 

Here are my broad plans: https://i.imgur.com/2CBNVmA.png - at the moment I'm just sketching, but the idea seems OK. I'd really like a continuous run but I just can't justify hiding 1/3 of the layout in non-modelled 18" radius curves to go around the outside of the shed! 

 

There's definitely not scope for heavy freight on this run, but I imagine Class 33, 73 and 37 would make an appearance. I'm not sure how I could justify diesel-hauled passenger services from the Minories-station but I'm happy to have any suggestions! Right now my first task is to shrink that minories plan a little so I can have 'staging' for it without the extension needing to be in-situ.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Lacathedrale

[Nearholmer]

Interesting ideas, being based on some bits of railway infrastructure that I used to know quite well.

 

Taking up a couple of your points:

 

Coal - Very unlikely, I think. Domestic coal was still being shifted by rail in the traditional way to a very few places on BR(S) in the 1970s, Tunbridge Wells Central being one, but London had been 'smokeless' for domestic fuel since, I think, 1968, and what solid fuel was used came from 'coal concentration depots'.

 

DEMUs - the Hastings and Oxted line services were happily diesel at your dates, and a 3D or 3H would fit neatly into a Minories.

 

Consider also newspaper traffic, which is a great excuse for a load of tatty old vans behind a Crompton or an ED, and highly typical of the locality.

 

Continental freight had moved out to Hither Green by the 1970s, and its quite hard to think of freight traffics this close in to central London. There was a big glass bottle factory at New Cross, which took sand, but was closed by the 1970s I think, so the nearest inspirations may be at Angerstein Wharf.

 

The 'traditional' industries alongside the viaduct were, I think, all sorts of stinking and/or noxious things: tanneries, glue factories, the vinegar brewery, metal plating works. A bit further south timber was a big thing, with timber yards along the Surrey Canal, served by lighters from the docks where ships bought timber from the Baltic.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Nearholmer

[The Lurker]

There was also the Peak Freans biscuit factory alongside the arches. The smell of the biscuits is one of my abiding memories of travelling into town from Kent as a child.

 

Freight services out in Kent very occasionally had 47s as well as the classes you mention, and you could also have an 08 for the Shunting. certainly, relatively small yards like Paddock Wood had their own shunters in the period you mention

[eastwestdivide]

Late 70s, early 80s in Kent / SE division, a 37 would be exceedingly rare, but 56s started to appear on aggregates from the WR in the early 80s.

And for passenger loco-hauled, look no further than the rush hour-only 33-hauled Mk1s on the London Bridge-E Grinstead/Uckfield services.

Or stretching things a little, for a while in that period, the Clapham Jn-Kensington Olympia was a loco+2 coaches (2 return trips in the rush hours). - my photo over here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105089-class-25-bck/?p=2093032

[Chimer]

I think I'm confused.  I initially read this to mean you wanted to build a 6' x 1'6" layout indoors, which at a later stage could be shifted to the shed to form one leg of an l-shaped scheme.  But I can't see an operable 6' x1'6" element anywhere in your diagram, certainly not one that could support "two concurrent operations".

 

On a separate issue, if you want a continuous run I don't see any problem justifying the achievement of this with a non-scenic shelf round the other two sides of the shed, turning the bit labelled "low-level goods" into a low-level circuit.

 

Good luck!

 

Chris

[Lacathedrale]

I've taken the liberty of chopping up my quotes to arrange them in a similar manner, I hope that doesn't offend anyone! 

 

Rolling Stock

• DEMUs - the Hastings and Oxted line services were happily diesel at your dates, and a 3D or 3H would fit neatly into a Minories.

Industry

• Continental freight had moved out to Hither Green by the 1970s, and its quite hard to think of freight traffics this close in to central London.
• Coal - Very unlikely, I think. 
• Consider also newspaper traffic, which is a great excuse for a load of tatty old vans behind a Crompton or an ED, and highly typical of the locality.
• There was a big glass bottle factory at New Cross, which took sand, but was closed by the 1970s I think, so the nearest inspirations may be at Angerstein Wharf. The 'traditional' industries alongside the viaduct were, I think, all sorts of stinking and/or noxious things: tanneries, glue factories, the vinegar brewery, metal plating works. A bit further south timber was a big thing, with timber yards along the Surrey Canal, served by lighters from the docks where ships bought timber from the Baltic.

 

..

 

Rolling Stock

• Late 70s, early 80s in Kent / SE division, a 37 would be exceedingly rare, but 56s started to appear on aggregates from the WR in the early 80s.
• And for passenger loco-hauled, look no further than the rush hour-only 33-hauled Mk1s on the London Bridge-E Grinstead/Uckfield services.
• Or stretching things a little, for a while in that period, the Clapham Jn-Kensington Olympia was a loco+2 coaches (2 return trips in the rush hours). - my photo over here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105089-class-25-bck/?p=2093032

 

..

 

Rolling Stock

• Freight services out in Kent very occasionally had 47s as well as the classes you mention, and you could also have an 08 for the Shunting. certainly, relatively small yards like Paddock Wood had their own shunters in the period you mention

 

 

Industry

• There was also the Peak Freans biscuit factory alongside the arches. The smell of the biscuits is one of my abiding memories of travelling into town from Kent as a child.

 

(I'd seen this for ages and never known what it was! Do you know when they closed down?)

 

MU's

Well, if I'm going to do multiple units then I'd happily do EMUs, at least (primarily travelling between Lewisham and London Bridge/Charing Cross) I've been on a few. I can't remember the exact designation but I do have quite a strong memory of slam door stock, wood interiors, etc. Wow - just looked at the INTERIORS of the 4CEP and 4VEP coaches and a wave of nostalgia. I've got to have them!  The main reason I was hoping to shy away is that I didn't want to have purely multiple-unit passenger services, but as eastwestdivide has illuminated there were rush-hour loco hauled trains even

 

Locos:

I'd always considered a 56/47 a rather foreign beast, but only because I've seen a number of 37's (infact, it was an EWS 37 powering through Lee station light-engine which kick started my whole teenage return to model trains. (Just as it is moving to Purley with the Caterham branch at the end of my garden now)). If however they are suitable then I'm all for it. The reason I was specifically after a 37 was due to the connection as mentioned, and that it has drop-in 2mmFS wheelsets available (in theory) from the society shop. The 33 will need the wheels turning.

 

Industry:

At the 'real' Spa Road then there were indeed lines running all over the place for the Deptford docks, Bricklayer's Arms, New Cross Carriage Works, (New Cross Gate even had yard shunted by an 08 for a period, it seems) etc. as well as the bottle factory, timber yards by the Surrey Canal. I am finding it really hard to countenance this low level goods line however, especially if we expand London city proper further SE in order to make Spa Road a real terminus, those industries as you have rightly pointed out just wouldn't be there anymore (or anywhere close to a station in the old city of london - would they?). I just can't picture them being that close without it looking a bit s**t.

 

The only example I can think of is the metal yard between the Peckham and Nunhead branches at Peckham Rye (which also had a big factory behind: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Peckham+Rye+Station/@51.4719926,-0.0666662,247a,35y,180h,39.45t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4876039f638b7c73:0x2a2020e676b3fbc5!8m2!3d51.4694938!4d-0.0706964- I don't think it was ever rail served (except maybe by a van hoist) but does illustrate the kind of cramped area we're discussing - elevated lines in the rear, even a handy rail overbridge for a view block and the station building (well, the main street and THEN the station building) as a visual full-stop at that end of the board.

 

Newspaper vans would certainly work in the place of coal - maybe parcels traffic (in order that I can reuse the stock on both high and low level lines). Is there any precedent at all for this arrangement, or do I need to rethink it? I was hoping for a little more variety than 'just' vans but it seems that could be a problem. Do I have many options on the 'city' side of the layout?

 

I think I'm confused.  I initially read this to mean you wanted to build a 6' x 1'6" layout indoors, which at a later stage could be shifted to the shed to form one leg of an l-shaped scheme.  But I can't see an operable 6' x1'6" element anywhere in your diagram, certainly not one that could support "two concurrent operations".

 

On a separate issue, if you want a continuous run I don't see any problem justifying the achievement of this with a non-scenic shelf round the other two sides of the shed, turning the bit labelled "low-level goods" into a low-level circuit.

 

Good luck!

 

Chris

 

First/Main board - Spa Road

You absolutely are not confused - I got a bit carried away with myself.

 

I could  fit ~24" of linear traverser-style staging if I compact the throat using a double-slip (gosh a double slip in 2mmFS!?) and have the station building and crossover as a bolt-on board, and limit myself to a minimum of 4 car trains, etc. etc. but at this point I'm just making life hard in order to fit it into the house. If the layout justifies it, why not just go straight to using the shed space? That extra 2'6" means I don't need to deal with any bolt-ons or specific compression bodges. I will have the station throat terminating in plain, straight track - and then have the 90 degree bend module, and then just a plain two track fiddle yard.

 

With regard to the low-level station, discussion on suitable rail usage notwithstanding, I wonder if the stub siding which shoots off straight under the high level station might be a good candidate for either a) that continuous run or b) a stub ended hidden staging siding - either way curving it around to connect to a possible continuous loop seems feasible: https://i.imgur.com/9VvQKDC.png

 

Expansion board (nominally Southwark Depot)

As with the 'real' Southwark Depot I agree that it, with the construction of Hither Green (gosh, how many childhood memories can I hit in one post?) would be gone by 1970. Additionally, if I am going to have parcels, newspaper and perishable traffic being handled by Spa Road  low level, I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to double up again. The reason I thought it might be interesting would be as a visual balance - this time the goods area is on the high lines, and the low lines form the more linear route. The Ewer Street 'shed' (i.e. turntable, water tank, coal staithes) adjoining Southwark Depot was partially retired before fully going out of service, but it could be a nice on-layout place for a loco to sit. Ultimately, if I can establish a legitimate use for it I think it's still a strong contender, but I would love to hear alternatives.  In some kind of perverse inversion of the real Southwark Depot, I could even have a line sinking behind (think: Bricklayer's Arms branch out of New Cross Gate)  which could connect around to the low level continuous loop.

 

Continuous Loop

While this is something that I like the idea of, I'm not sure how much it should factor into non-trivial design choices (for ex. running the fiddle track under Spa Road station in a curve is no big deal, but orienting the entire station itself would be). My shed has outward opening double doors on the diagonal (bottom left corner of the plan) and a continuous run would cross all four windows too. I very much like the idea of provisioning right angled 'pockets' on the ends of scenic layout boards for expansion in future, but given my desire to attempt to exhibit at least once in my life, the layout initially must be able to run completely without these. (The same reason I'm hoping to be able to fit the layout boards end-on instead of at right angles 'just incase').

[Lacathedrale]

This is almost verbatim what my original thought for the high/low level lines around Spa Road would look like:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45131642@N00/37778828601

[Lacathedrale]

Glasgow Road seems to have a very similar vibe too - but is alot more compressed. Having seen some lovely use of negative space while browsing the forum today (inlaw trouble!) I'm eager to ensure whatever I come up with can capture that. Anyway, 3:01 onwards here:

 

https://youtu.be/Z1_3jEW5Fmo?t=178

[Mike Storey]

I am not sure I get it. You are planning to produce something fictional but based on what would have most likely run in the approximate area? So why don't you just run what you want to run? Whom are you trying to please?

 

I can only add that, after only four layouts I have helped construct, or in one case actually built, in a very woeful, several decades of on-off 00 and N modelling, I have found the desire to sit and watch a train just going round and round, glass in hand, to be much more delightful, than the most historically accurate bit of, scale speed, end to end, shunting. But I am going to build my "ultimate" layout on a very specific line branch line with very specific operation and stock, but I have planned to build it in a way to allow roundy roundy operation, via the fiddle yard, when I want. Like yours, it is primarily SR EMU operation with a decent amount of freight (The Sheppey line in the early 1980's).

 

You must ultimately decide really, what will bring you most pleasure, once you have built, or at least half built, the bu88er. 

[DCB]

The layout looks pretty good for an exhibition layout viewed from outside but it is going to be somewhat tedious to view from inside as planned.  I don't think you have any really good viewing points except near the quasi Minories platform ends.    My spare bedroom layout of which my son's arrival caused the demise, had a slightly offset door and my favourite operating position was in the doorway outside the curve looking in. 

[Lacathedrale]

I am not sure I get it. You are planning to produce something fictional but based on what would have most likely run in the approximate area? So why don't you just run what you want to run? Whom are you trying to please?

 

I can only add that, after only four layouts I have helped construct, or in one case actually built, in a very woeful, several decades of on-off 00 and N modelling, I have found the desire to sit and watch a train just going round and round, glass in hand, to be much more delightful, than the most historically accurate bit of, scale speed, end to end, shunting. But I am going to build my "ultimate" layout on a very specific line branch line with very specific operation and stock, but I have planned to build it in a way to allow roundy roundy operation, via the fiddle yard, when I want. Like yours, it is primarily SR EMU operation with a decent amount of freight (The Sheppey line in the early 1980's).

 

You must ultimately decide really, what will bring you most pleasure, once you have built, or at least half built, the bu88er. 

 

Hi Mike,

 

I'm indeed putting together what I believe the Americans define as 'protofreelance', that is to invent a place/track layout/location but otherwise superimpose proper working practises, locomotive choices, etc. ontop of it. In this case I'm imagining a pair of BR(S) layout modules joined back-to-back. While joined each half would act as a fiddle for the other, or they could be separated and a dedicated fiddle yard attached top each for 'exhibiting' one or the other. A small concession is where no major design compromises need to be made, to provision for perpendicular exits at the end of each board to permit a continuous loop while at home. See here:

 

 

I think my problem is that I have built both round-and-round and end-to-end shunting layouts based on American practise and they just haven't stuck. After laying the track and doing the wiring and a little scenery, I've found precious little reason to continue onward with either. That was a few years ago however, and no doubt a change to a prototype that I have some familiarity with will make a big difference. Do bear in mind that SOME level of automation will be happening on the layout so I can 'sit back and watch trains' with a glass of wine or whatever even if the layout is end-to-end.

 

The layout looks pretty good for an exhibition layout viewed from outside but it is going to be somewhat tedious to view from inside as planned.  I don't think you have any really good viewing points except near the quasi Minories platform ends.    My spare bedroom layout of which my son's arrival caused the demise, had a slightly offset door and my favourite operating position was in the doorway outside the curve looking in. 

 

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not disputing what you're saying but if you could explain a bit further it might help. In my mind, across the high level station throat or across to the loco spur there, along the low level towards their bufferstops and both along and away from the Southwark Depot seem like they would be good spots for photos. I definitely do agree that the Southwark Depot end of the layout absolutely needs more work done on it - it really was just a sketch. In the above render I've just shown it as a passing loop. 

[Lacathedrale]

More Inspiration

Some more inspiration comes from the Widened Lines - I really like the way that Barbican's tilework infers an overall roof despite there not being one there. The 'derelict' platforms at the back from the truncated run into Moorgate also evidence a rationalised service very much 'of the times'. 

 

A cross-section of Bishopsgate also provides an interesting study. At the lowest level was the 'relief' station built by the GER and additional terminus until Liverpool Street was opened (at which point it became a through station and Bishopsgate high level became a goods-only). Over the low level station and below the high level station a road bridge cut through to access the interior. It's not a million miles away to think that in my version of Spa Road something very similar happened, but instead of another terminus being built, the low level station was the one closed to passengers (since we don't have a fictional equivalent to Liverpool St). Here's a link that shows the low level station site (in the cutting), the road bridge, and the site of the high level goods station: https://i.imgur.com/KKWyvG9.jpg

 

I think that Fenchurch Street almost is a perfect analogue for Spa Road as seen here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fenchurch_street/ A roof over the very end of the station, raised up on a viaduct.I've got a fiendish desire to include some portion of the old London Bridge station - maybe that awful brown footbridge or some aspect of the 1866 lattice canopy. 

 

Left board as staging for now

Anyway, I think for now the left hand board in the above image will have to be entirely functional - a few pairs of angled aluminium coming out at the backscene portals onto bare wood - there is enough going on without considering that half of the layout too deeply.

 

Low Level Track Plan

I do need to think of a more feasible track-plan for the low level of Spa Road. Looking at

 

High Level scenics/layout

Also, some better idea of how to utilise the space behind the station - right now there are a good few inches of nothing.

• An even higher retaining wall a-la Holborn Viaduct (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38339202@N00/11149768884)?
• A gap  to represent a drop back down to street level (ex. tooley Street behind London Bridge)
• Or maybe just push the station back towards the backscene for more room up-front? 
• Any ideas at all would be most appreciated. 

 

I've done some head scratching and I think that if I can somehow justify the parcel/newspaper/perishable workings on the low level (and subsequently prolong the utilisation of the fictional Southwark Street/Ewer Street conglomerate on the other board when it comes around), that 1987 might just be the perfect date for me. Specifically because it shows the introduction of Class 37's on the southern region. I think broadly speaking I could run any of the following without being too out of kilter with reality:

 

EMU’s

4EPB and 4CEPs would be in evidence, the former with some very old overall blue, and the latter with some smattering of LSE Jaffa Cake but otherwise split between blue-grey and NSE.

 

Locos

33s and 73s in BR Blue would be the vast majority, but I could also occasionally see 73s in Intercity for Gatwick express*, 37s in Railfreight Construction and/or Dutch starting to be seen around this time, and a 47 or two (specifically on newspaper traffic (Dover/Victoria was a thing), or in Intercity on excursion/cross-regional passenger workings). Overall I'm really quite surprised at the variety.

 

* I appreciate that a Gatwick Express service stopping at a three road station might be a little outlandish. At least I'm on the right line,. and maybe there are engineering works. Also, I was the most excited badger in the set when my mum's friend got me a Class 125 HST locomotive... until it turned out to just be the unpowered tralier. Still, Intercity to me is still the childhood epitome of grandiose travel and that two-tone brown/cream is very 'of an era'.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Lacathedrale

[phil_sutters]

If anyone needs to know where Spa Road is or was -

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/sizes/81531-new-railway-map-c1884-se-london/large/

 

or as it was in 1946

http://maps.southwark.gov.uk/connect/Includes/Multi%20year%20historical%20map%20scans/S_OLO_7_O_97_O.jpg

 

Some of the infrastructure is still in daily use!

Edited December 28, 2017 by phil_sutters