Richie Kynaston Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Hello all, I have debated which main topic this should come in, discussions or questions, but while it’s a question, I am hoping it will stimulate discussion! Some of you may know or have seen that I am planning and about to start work on my N gauge layout portraying a slightly amended version of the East Midlands during the mid-late 1980s, specifically the Derby and Toton areas. So coal will obviously be a key commodity moved. But i am hoping to draw on people’s knowledge, recollections, photos, spotting records and haulage logs to ensure that the workings, motive power, freight wagon types and consists are as close to reality as possible. I have been trawling Flickr and a couple of printed books for info, but I am keen to hear from anyone with any knowledge of this area in the time period. I think this was the final days of Peaks on the MML, probably just down to a handful of locos, but which ones? Was the stockall Mk2a/Mk2b on these trains? When did 25s, 40s and 46a finish in the area? I know in 1987, there were still pairs of 20s on the Derby-Crewe diagrams sometimes, and in 1989 there was the top and tail 20s on the Matlocks? I’m presuming cross-country services were mainly 47s at this time? Can anyone advise about Speedlink consists, or whether some collieries in the area were more usual to see 56s than 58s for example? Did the Redland PGA wagons work through Toton on a regular basis or did they just go South and East from Mountsorrel? I’ve seen pictures of 16-ton minerals behind pairs of 20s in the 1980s, but haven’t been able to establish the traffic flow. I am just starting to acquire rolling stock so want to make sure I get the right things! So any info is welcome, and really appreciated. Even if you just have a list of locos seen on a visit to Derby or Chesterfield for example, it would be welcomed here. I really am grateful for any and all input. My layout thread is linked in the signature if anyone wants to read it. Cheers Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums will have some shots, as David used to live, or at least frequently visit the area Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Presumably you found these threads: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57222-east-midlands-80s-blues/ http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80912-east-midlands-miscellany/page-1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Kynaston Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums will have some shots, as David used to live, or at least frequently visit the area Thanks, I’ve had a quick look through, nothing immediately jumped out for the East Midlands in the 80s, but i’ll have another look later. Presumably you found these threads: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57222-east-midlands-80s-blues/ http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80912-east-midlands-miscellany/page-1 Cheers, I had found the former (shame there are no dates with the images), but not the later, so another one added to the reading list! I’d forgotten about the transfer of Class 50s to/from Doncaster for refurbishment on NE/SW trains. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted September 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2018 "I’m presuming cross-country services were mainly 47s at this time?" I travelled a lot on the NE-SW trains [eg Poole-Newcastle] which were invariably 45-hauled. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 "I’m presuming cross-country services were mainly 47s at this time?" I travelled a lot on the NE-SW trains [eg Poole-Newcastle] which were invariably 45-hauled. Dava These were steam-heated for the first part of the decade; they also incorporated what I believe was a former RFO with loose-seating. I used the service quite a bit between Banbury and Newcastle in 1982. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Louch Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Another Flickr site for more photos might be worth a look? https://www.flickr.com/groups/3017840@N21/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) The Summer/Autumn 1986 Platform 5 booklet shows there were still 69 class 45s listed, all allocated to Toton. Although only 23 class 45/0s remained there were still *47* class 45/1s (out of a sub-class of 50). edit - there were no class 46 in service by this date cheers Edited October 1, 2018 by Rivercider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) For Speedlink traffic you could search the Flickr group 'Speedlink/Speedlink Distribution'. By searching the group with the search term 'Derby' you get these views:- https://www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=2746176%40N20&view_all=1&text=derby It is a bit imprecise - you will have to search through them, but the shots include 25230 at Derby in May 1986 for example cheers Edited September 30, 2018 by Rivercider 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) Attached is a pdf of all the services through Duffield for a Thursday in 1979. The loco types are taken from either photos (as are the freight consists) or from the listings on the Timewarp pages (now available as The Bashing Years http://www.thebashingyears.co.uk/index.html ). Also of use for the late 1970s/early 1980s is the listings from the Chesterfield Observer site http://britishrailways.net/cfld_obs/index.html. Part of the same site includes coaching stock sitings from 1981 onwards as well http://britishrailways.net/rs/index.html Duffield 1979 Thursday.pdf Edited October 3, 2018 by Flood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Kynaston Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 Afternoon all, I travelled a lot on the NE-SW trains [eg Poole-Newcastle] which were invariably 45-hauled.Dava Thanks for that Dava, what was the time period when you were travelling? These were steam-heated for the first part of the decade; they also incorporated what I believe was a former RFO with loose-seating. I used the service quite a bit between Banbury and Newcastle in 1982. I wonder if they are similar vehicles to those that just about survive as the Lounge Cars on the Caledonian Sleeper - they have loose chairs too! Another Flickr site for more photos might be worth a look? https://www.flickr.com/groups/3017840@N21/ Thanks Andy, I've only had a quick look so far, I've seen a couple of the images before, but hadn't come across the group, so that is really useful. The Summer/Autumn 1986 Platform 5 booklet shows there were still 69 class 45s listed, all allocated to Toton. Although only 23 class 45/0s remained there were still 46 class 45/1s (out of a sub-class of 50). edit - there were no class 46 in service by this date cheers Now that opens up some possibilities I wonder if any one has traction diagrams for the Toton based 45s? Presumably the 45/1s were on Nottingham/Derby - London services? I am assuming the 45s on the cross-country workings would have been Bristol, Gateshead allocated? If you have chance, is there any possibility of listing the 69 locos that were Toton allocated at that time please Rivercider? For Speedlink traffic you could search the Flickr group 'Speedlink/Speedlink Distribution'. By searching the group with the search term 'Derby' you get these views:- https://www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=2746176%40N20&view_all=1&text=derby It is a bit imprecise - you will have to search through them, but the shots include 25230 at Derby in May 1986 for example cheers Thanks, I've got that group bookmarked, but hadn't thought about doing a search within it! Cheers Attached is a pdf of all the services through Duffield for a Thursday in 1979. The loco types are taken from either photos (as are the freight consists) or from the listings on the Timewarp pages (now available as The Bashing Years http://www.thebashingyears.co.uk/index.html ). Also of use for the late 1970s/early 1980s is the listings from the Chesterfield Observer site http://britishrailways.net/cfld_obs/index.html. Part of the same site includes coaching stock sitings from 1981 onwards as well http://britishrailways.net/rs/index.html Duffield 1979 Thursday.pdf Flood, Many thanks - that is superb, thank you for sharing - also I wasn't aware of the Bashing Years website, not come across that one, my reading list has just expanded considerably!! Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 These were Mark 1 stock; the ones in Scotland are much younger Mk 2s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted September 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums will have some shots, as David used to live, or at least frequently visit the area Richard, I've just noticed you've been given the above link to my flickr site. Most of the East Midlands photos currently on my flickr site are from the 60s and 70s but the following albums do contain some 1980s photos as well which might be of some use. https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157650004374857 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157633109130307 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626991323888 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626427250022 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626320516144 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626294728084 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums/72157626200525911/page1 As Fat Controller says I did indeed live in the area at one time, but from 1974 to 1980 spent much of my time in Essex, visiting the East Midalnds to see relatives from time to time. In 1980 I moved to Northumberland but again continued to visit the area in the 1980s, most often during 1980-84. Dad, who also took railway photos, lived in the area until 1984. I am gradually adding the post 1980 photos, the albums above contain some, but you have to read the captions to check the photo dates. I still have more 1980s photos to add, but it is a long process as I still have many thousands of photos to work on. David 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted September 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2018 Afternoon all, Thanks for that Dava, what was the time period when you were travelling? I was traveling 1986-89. 45014 Royal Tank Regiment was a regular on the Poole-Newcatsle for example with other Gateshead 45/0 & 45/1s. Dava I wonder if they are similar vehicles to those that just about survive as the Lounge Cars on the Caledonian Sleeper - they have loose chairs too! Thanks Andy, I've only had a quick look so far, I've seen a couple of the images before, but hadn't come across the group, so that is really useful. Now that opens up some possibilities I wonder if any one has traction diagrams for the Toton based 45s? Presumably the 45/1s were on Nottingham/Derby - London services? I am assuming the 45s on the cross-country workings would have been Bristol, Gateshead allocated? If you have chance, is there any possibility of listing the 69 locos that were Toton allocated at that time please Rivercider? Thanks, I've got that group bookmarked, but hadn't thought about doing a search within it! Cheers Flood, Many thanks - that is superb, thank you for sharing - also I wasn't aware of the Bashing Years website, not come across that one, my reading list has just expanded considerably!! Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Kynaston Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 Richard, I've just noticed you've been given the above link to my flickr site. Most of the East Midlands photos currently on my flickr site are from the 60s and 70s but the following albums do contain some 1980s photos as well which might be of some use. https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157650004374857 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157633109130307 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626991323888 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626427250022 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626320516144 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/72157626294728084 https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums/72157626200525911/page1 As Fat Controller says I did indeed live in the area at one time, but from 1974 to 1980 spent much of my time in Essex, visiting the East Midalnds to see relatives from time to time. In 1980 I moved to Northumberland but again continued to visit the area in the 1980s, most often during 1980-84. Dad, who also took railway photos, lived in the area until 1984. I am gradually adding the post 1980 photos, the albums above contain some, but you have to read the captions to check the photo dates. I still have more 1980s photos to add, but it is a long process as I still have many thousands of photos to work on. David David, Many thanks - I shall enjoy browsing through those, and will try and remember to keep checking back! Much appreciated. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 The 23 Toton allocated class 45/0s listed in the Summer/Autumn 1986 Platform 5 book are:- 45006 45007 45009 45012 45013 45022 45029 45033 45034 45037 45040 45041 45044 45046 45049 45051 45052 45058 45062 45066 45069 45070 45076. The Toton allocated class 45/1 fleet was 45101 to 45150, less three withdrawn locos 45109, 45117, 45147. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBird Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 As far as I can recall, the 45 fleet wasn't allowed to go down to just a handful. It would seem to make sense to keep them going until they failed, and only then stopping them rather than repairing. Instead, once the decision was taken, they were just stopped "en-masse". I recall the long lines of them at Tinsley, visible from the M1... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Hi Richard I am attempting to model the Derby area in late 1980s/early 90s. As you say, coal was still a major freight flow, a lot from Derbys/Notts coalfields to power stations in the Trent Valley. There was also Avenue coking plant near Chesterfield There were also flows to/from further afield. Usual motive power was 2x20s, 56s and 58s on MGR services with HAAs, also Speedlink coal services with HEAs often with Class 37 hauled. To easily add variety, MGR services from Denby opencast site just north of Derby had a brake van at each end to enable the train crew to operate the gated crossings along the route. Have got more info on freight and passenger services, will dig out and post. It's certainly a good area and era to model. Lot of variety in services and locomotives. Regards Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) I appreciate the fact that you can probably relate to the mid 1980s more but I feel that the photo below shows why I find the late 1970s around Derby so interesting. No uniform rakes of MGRs on the local coal traffic in those days... Between Stenson and Chellaston Junctions by David Blower, on Flickr Edited October 3, 2018 by Flood 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Kynaston Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 Thanks Flood Nice shot, I can hear those 20s whistling from here!! Kevin/David: Thanks for the 'Peak' info, really useful. Phil: Yes the Denby branch double brake vans is one of those I am hoping to model! Anything to add variety to things. Sorry for the delayed response - illness has kept me at bay. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now