Gaiety GWR Pannier Restoration and build in P4

[bertiedog]

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Gaiety Panniers for re-building.

 

Two models on the bench, one 2 rail in poor condition for a scale re-build, and a three rail version that works fine, but needs attention to the paint etc.,

 

These were made in the early 1950's, by Castle Arts of Nottingham, a die-cast all metal model body, and chassis, Mazak body and main chassis parts, steel axles, and a five pole motor of substantial size with a gearbox and spur drive to the front axle.

 

The models were mainly three rail, but were also supplied as two rail with all wheels insulated, and body only to fit the Tri-ang 060 chassis of the period. The original wheels were for 00 track Hornby style, and are chrome plated Mazak, and quite good quality.

 

The model is of a 5700 GWR Pannier, generally accurate , but with mainly cast on details, and a very odd shaped safety valve cover, which can be changed on the scale version. the other fittings are about right in size, dome , etc.

 

Numbers and lettering were impressed by hand in to the soft zinc alloy, and gilded over, unfortunately very crudely in most cases. The castings are very good, made by a Birmingham company who specialised in Car parts. Generally they are sound, no cracking or lead contamination, which other makes of the time often suffered from.

 

The soon to be P4 scale wheeled version is being stripped of all the cast on details, handrails etc., and the plates. replacements with be made for all the smaller details before a re-paint.

 

Close examination shows that Castle Arts made several versions, the cabs are different width, with different roof edges, the painted one is narrower, and details all over the body are different. The stripped one has guard lamp mountings at the front, and other extra detail, and better tank fillers.

 

The Cab windows are wrong, they should be round, but were made square as the later type 5700's to make the die cast moulding easier.

 

The Safety Valve bonnet is just as bad though, and will be removed and replaced with a bronze one., along with tidying up the chimney and top. The body dimensions are generally right, and the Locomotive is going to be fitted with P4 wheels, Gibson's, and full scale brake gear, with a brass chassis and new coupling rods.

 

The original gear box, with contrate gears,and spur gear drive, is being retained, but with a modern coreless DC motor and flywheel added to the original fittings. The motor will just allow cab fittings to be done, something the original could not, as the magnet was in the cab.

 

Performance of the original was never much good, the 5 pole motor was a good design, but made with very poor bearings indeed, and ran noisily at best.

 

 

 

 

 

[bertiedog]

?© Phil Scott, GNU distribution licensed Photo from Wikipedia.

 

The type of GWR 5700 Pannier to provide the extra details for the model, the cast Gaiety body has no top feed, round brass opening windows are needed, and decent square based buffers are needed to be made.

 

I have some un-machined 18mm Hamblings wheels, that can be turned to full P4 standards, so will be using them on the build

.

The chassis will be a brass copy of the original cast chassis , with full springing, and compensaton, with the original drive gears, and a Coreless Motor instead of the original motor. There is a lot of space for that smaller motor, so adding a flywheel as well. it's all well hidden as there are no open sides under the panniers, the splashers being solid to the footplate, and backed by a solid wall, which hide the original motor.

 

The spur gear to the front axle will be retained, I will pierce it out to allow light through the spokes. I may replace the primary contrate gear with an Ultrascale one in plastic, as it may be quieter, it needs experiment to see what is smoother and quieter.

[craigwelsh]

Are you really going to P4 and detail one of these ? Its got a very passing resemblance to a 57xx at best - smokebox saddle is wrong, bunker is wrong, roof is wrong, boiler top is flat more like the 64xx instead of raised. You'd be better off starting from scratch for an accurate model, is it an historic attachment that you want to run this for?

Hope that doesn't offend or anything im just curious why you'd start from here for a P4 model?

 

Detail photos http://www.warrenshephard.com/detail_photographs_for_modelling.htm

[DaveF]

I've had one of these since I was a child, I keep it for sentimental reasons - the chassis wore out quite quickly in the 1950s and was replaced with the early Tri-ang 0-6-0T chassis with the solid alloy wheels. Years ago I reduced the flanges, it now gets an occassional outing as a reminder of just how basic models often were when I was young.

 

David

[bertiedog]

Are you really going to P4 and detail one of these ? Its got a very passing resemblance to a 57xx at best - smokebox saddle is wrong, bunker is wrong, roof is wrong, boiler top is flat more like the 64xx instead of raised. You'd be better off starting from scratch for an accurate model, is it an historic attachment that you want to run this for?

Hope that doesn't offend or anything im just curious why you'd start from here for a P4 model?

 

Detail photos http://www.warrenshe...r_modelling.htm

 

It's not so far out as seems, the pannier top is quite all right for dimensions, fully plated but no raised bump, but who cares*, the dome is usable, the saddle is easily corrected with some brass plate, and being all metal is likely to still be here and running in another 50 years, long after plastic commercial FE are long rotted away. As soon as all the fine details are added all round it is actually quite an accurate model, and heavy to boot.

 

The cab roof is near correct, (on one of them), it just needs a new rounded brass plate top added with details, and the bunker is reasonable, the real ones varied anyway.

* Wolverhampton didn't, as I have a shot of a 5700 with a flat tank top. They varied a lot.

 

Stephen.

 

Ohh and I have done this before, many times! during the 1970's onwards, why bother to scratch build a body when the remains of an older one can be revived?

[bertiedog]

Start of the work, the awful cast safety valve removed in the miller, and also the chimney reduced to use only the base, with a new turned top half.

The edges and the cab roof have been smoothed over, ready for a brand new brass roof, and the cab windows to be corrected to round type to match the cab style. The steps can be used, with brass steps added to the cast backs.

Next job is to remove all the cast one handrails etc., this will have to be done with needle files by hand, then the plates and GWR impressed letters filled and sanded smooth.

Stephen

[Mikkel]

Following this with interest, it's a slightly mad project (if you'll allow) and I rather like that .

 

I also really like the idea of restoring old locos and stock to new glory, think of all the miles it has trundled in its lifetime (err well, maybe it hasn't, but I fancy the thought ).

[bertiedog]

Not that much wrong with the rear bunker shape a touch of filing will not cure. I have seen worst on other commercial models.

 

 

 

Stephen.

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

I realy like your idea of up dateing this loco, I think have one like yours which has JVM B'HAM stamped in the cab. Sprung buffers, Triang chassis with Romford wheels. Re-numbered 7715. I was wondering about the saftey valve!! Runs like a dream. Has round windows, well an attempt has been made to alter the square ones.

 

I will keep am eye on what you are doing, new saftey valve looks a good idea (just checked the spares box, I have some but ther are for round boilers). Just looked at an old Hornby Pannier body and there is one on that

 

I repainted an Eames E2 not so long ago and its a good little runner and like Mikkel love to see old models brought back to life.

 

I tried 30 years ago to repaint and detail an Eames 3 rail pannier, this has a similar motor to the Triang one but the brushes are at the front of the motor not on the side. It needs stripping down again, the main problems being the holes for the handrail knobs being so big for the split pins that modern hand rail knobs are too small.

[Tim V]

Can you show a picture of the unmodified chassis without the top that you intend to use please?

[bertiedog]

Good running with a Gaiety usually indicated the chassis had been changed to the same Vintage Tri-ang 060, often the early solid wheeled variety.

 

The producer of the GWR Pannier 5700 locomotive was Castle Arts Products, I believe hailing from Nottingham, who sold novelty items and toys, and developed an interest in Model Railways. They did a 062 as well, and it is rumoured other locos from a different caster. They also did some rolling stock, but this was never widely sold.

 

The body was cast by JVM of Birmingham, who were car parts makers and still in business making precision castings, or at least till recently. They also made Hamblings parts, like the wheel press and the track gauge, cast in Mazak, a zinc alloy.

 

Unlike Graham Farish the zinc is relatively soft, not the hard type that G/F used. the design was quite good for the day, early 1950's , and the motor was a five pole of substantial size , with strong magnets and decent over all outline. I think the main armature was bought in from Taycol.

 

The troubles began with the motor bearings, very crude and wore badly, also the chassis was far too sophisticated for its own good. The chassis was die-cast, but the sides were too thin for bearings and they wore rapidly. The design however was sound in outline, and the chassis could be converted to full springing as it stood, leaving just the driven axle at the front un-sprung.

 

The drive is via spur gears, and a contrate gear driven by a pinion on the motor shaft. The design is good, and the gears OK, but the chassis was not well fitted and the gears could come out of mesh. Easily fixed by the owner, especially if the chassis was changed to the Tri-ang.

 

Castle Arts realised the chassis had problems and marketed the body as a "Kit" to fit the Tri-ang. It seems the body was modified several times in production over about 8 years or so.

 

The last ones were altered to make the fit of the Tri-ang chassis easier. The original chassis was held in placed by the ends on the threaded shafts of the buffers, they were simply unscrewed to remove the body.

 

Three rail versions were offered and were the most popular, as Hornby had no GWR loco in production. The Gaiety all had cast chromed wheels, quite reasonable for the time.

 

The safety valve is the only really bad feature, quite what made them model it so badly is very odd, as the rest is accurate within the design limits.

 

The often quoted problem of the square windows is down to making the moulds cheaper, and of course later 5700 Panniers had square windows! the interior of the body is "open plan" plenty of space available. The original motor was so big it occupied the cab, and fitting a smaller one is a priority to allow full cab detail to be added with crew etc.

 

I often got customers having the old locos modified to newer standards, Romford or Hamblings wheels, and one was an early 1967 conversion to P4, as this one will be, as I do not run OO at home these days.

 

The "Duck" , the Rev Audry's loco is based on the Gaiety 060, he had one with a replacement chassis.

 

The finish of the paint was not wonderful, no undercoat and poorly impressed GWR lettering and stamped numbers on the cab side.

 

However the castings are sound, and with a few brass additons will detail it to a reasonable standard, with better running and no trace of FE parts in it !! I expect the Motor will be German, a coreless type, but using the gears as made by Gaiety, with the exception that the contrate may be changed to an Ultrascale version in plastic to be quieter, we shall see later one.

 

Gibson, Markits , and Ultrascale do the correct wheels, but I have un-machined Hamblings 18mm which will suit, turned to P4 profile. The front wheel remains un-sprung, but the rear pairs can be sprung easily, same as the original could be.

 

Some pictures to follow soon,

 

Stephen

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

I must learn to read and understand posts properly, as ypou 1st post had full details in it. I have attached a photo of the Triang chassis version which has had Romford wheels replace the Triang ones. They are on 1/8" axles with the axle holes sleeved down to 1/8th.

 

 

The chassis is a push fit as there is a metal bracket attached to the chassis above the front drivers,the back of the chassis has had the 2 lugs removed and some how stops in the right place

[bertiedog]

Some later Gaiety castings have a matching area at the back to take the Tri-ang chassis mounting lugs, added as an extra by JVM, I presume to Castle Arts request. The buffers were solid, not screwed on like the earlier ones.

 

Some other model railway makers of the 1950's period supplied Tri-ang conversions, Hamblings for one, with a stamped out brass bracket. Stewart Reidpath did a lead cast chassis conversion, to take a Romford motor, and Hamblings wheels, in OO. By the time this was made, Stewart Reidpath were part of Hamblings company.

 

The number of cast bodies made far outstrips the number of RTR versions. A lot remained unsold at closure of Castle Arts model railway production, and one Ebay advert even sells the undecorated bodies at the moment! I think all production ceased about 1958 or thereabouts, so 50 years old.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

As requested, photos of the original, ( three rail ) version, the original motor, which is 5 pole, and the gearbox, with the contrate and spur gear drive to the front axle. The chassis is cast, with drop in wheels sets, that could be sprung if you wanted, and the three rail pick-up on the base plate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The buffers retained the chassis to the body, the screwed shanks bear on tabs on the chassis to retain it.

 

The very odd shaped safety valve cover, why so bad?

 

Impressed numbers on the plates, badly aligned, as were the GWR letters, gilding was added as they were struck with the die stamp.

 

Casters marks., J.V.M. Birmingham.

 

View of underside, lots of space, and poor painting!

 

Stephen.

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

The picture of the chassis has answered a question for me, as there is what I believe to be a K's J50 for sale on Ebay, with the same chassis as in your photo. They are designed to use a Hornby Dublo 0-6-0t chassis, the builder has attached a mounting block to HD fitting in the body to mount the chassis.

 

Thanks for an interesting and informative thread, as I enjoy reading about the story's of older models.

[dublorunner]

Some pictures of my 3 rail Gaiety, which runs on my 3 rail layout or it did until the gear wheel was worn down completely by the worm gear (is that the right order?). I have moved the gear forward a little bit with the aid of a screw driver and has re-engaged and will just about run. I don't have the skills to replace it as this would mean dismantling the motor completely - way above my expertise level. Still I hope you enjoy the photos if I manage to upload them.

[bertiedog]

Some pictures of my 3 rail Gaiety, which runs on my 3 rail layout or it did until the gear wheel was worn down completely by the worm gear (is that the right order?). I have moved the gear forward a little bit with the aid of a screw driver and has re-engaged and will just about run. I don't have the skills to replace it as this would mean dismantling the motor completely - way above my expertise level. Still I hope you enjoy the photos if I manage to upload them.

 

You can remove the pinion, with the motor removed, with a pinion puller or a blade and vice, and just put it on in reverse and you have got another 50 years life on it!! This is typical of the wear that could affect them.

Pushing it along will help as well, as long as an unworn part is in contact.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Click on picture for full image

Click on picture for full image

 

Cleaned up body, with all the handrails removed, filed off. ready now for lots of brass parts to detail the body, starting with the handrails and lifting rings, handles for the fillers, and both the chimney and safety valve.

 

The windows will be on brass plates, and a new brass roof as well for the cab.

 

The remains of the stamped GWR show, but will be left to be filled after the undercoat is on, sanding it flat and filling at that stage, as the marks are very shallow, too shallow to take filler now.

 

Stephen

[Conory]

I've only got a Gaiety body so I don't think it would be worth me going to all that effort. I applaud your enterprise though.

Maybe when you've finished I might change my mind.

 

I did some test filing a long time ago, it was hard work just using a file.

 

I've got a couple of Farish 81XX bodies which I dig out every now and again. Maybe I'll have another look.

 

Julian

[hayfield]

I've only got a Gaiety body so I don't think it would be worth me going to all that effort. I applaud your enterprise though.

Maybe when you've finished I might change my mind.

 

I did some test filing a long time ago, it was hard work just using a file.

 

I've got a couple of Farish 81XX bodies which I dig out every now and again. Maybe I'll have another look.

 

Julian

 

Julian, mine uses a Triang/Hornby 0-6-0 chassis. Minor modifications, file off the 2 rear mounting lugs and fit a metal L shaped bracket at the front, see earlier picture. 17mm x 7mm and 9mm wide, drill an oblong hole so the bracket screws into the hole on the top of the chassis and can be adjusted.

[Mikkel]

What a difference you've made so far, very neat job. Just realized there is even a bit of rivet detail on this model!

[Il Grifone]

Any further news on this project?

[bertiedog]

It's back on the bench again, as I got a set of bargain Alan Gibson P4 wheels to suit from Ebay, and a set of brass side frames for the chassis. Not a lot more done so far, but a growing box of bits to add, like handrail knobs, figures, new chimney etc., The chassis form the re-build has been fitted to an original Gaiety Pannier that had a failed motor and worn out gears.

Stephen.

[lightengine]

Reading this today made me get out my loco and have a look at it. The body muxt have had a repaint as mine is a very lightgreen. The chassis has been replaced and is a Triang X392.

Having read the post and comments I am now wondering whether to have a go at detailing it or just to keep the chassis for another project. Any suggestions are welcome.

Interesting to see how you are getting on Stephen.

[hayfield]

Might be worth a repaint and getting the smoke unit working